Grammar and writing - what do you like better MCT or IEW?

[Ting Tang]

My 8 year old (turning 9 in July) will technically be a 4th grader next year.  We did CAP's writing and rhetoric fable this year mostly orally, and I didn't have him write anything independently or on his own, really. I was his scribe and offered a lot of suggestions.  It's a semester course we stretched out over 2/3 of the school year, so we've been done for a while. We also did MP's English Grammar Recitation I this year because we did Latin. It went alright.  I like that it is light without the memorization (we skipped), but from what I understand you need a fuller grammar program if you are not going to use MPs Latin, and I don't think we will continue with their Latin next year. He did the Prima level. 

He does struggle with reading and comprehension, so we started All About Reading, and I decided on Level 2 for him. We're halfway through that. I plan to continue through the levels, I think, with him. (I did get some recommendations on grammar programs from the company.)  It might have been a little on the easier side, but we decided to level down for him.

One hang-up I have is I feel like we should start working on his writing more because of his grade level, but I know is will be a challenge.  We also need a grammar program.  I feel like we can work on his reading/grammar/writing simultaneously. 

I've considered MCT and IEW. 

MCT:  Since I need a grammar program for him, maybe MCT (rfwp.com) is the way to go.  I think he'd like it visually.  But it looks like the practice is really just analyzing sentences at the Island level--which MCT considered essential before writing.  He's done a little analyzing. But I feel like he'd still need something else for writing. Or am I wrong?  He's probably love the stories because he is very child-like and tends to still like toys that are slightly below age-level. 

IEW: At a glance, the themed writing programs look pretty neat to me. I could use a k-2 or even a 3-5.  I'll have to further research that.  And there is fix-it grammar.  So we could get everything we need through IEW.  It's not very colorful.  But it's procedural, and I like that.

 

Just wondered what anyone's experiences were with a child who still doesn't have a lot of stamina for reading longer books/comprehension.  Thanks! 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Ting Tang

[kirstenhill]

 I can tell you a bit about our experience -- With my youngest (currently 10/4th grade, with dyslexia/dysgraphia), we did the first two Writing and Rhetoric books orally this year.  I read it to him, and he responded orally.  Every now and then I would have him write or type a sentence or two of his responses, but not usually.  We've already finished both books -- he really liked it, so we moved pretty fast.  He really "got" the composition part when doing it orally but but quickly started getting stuck on some of the more grammar related questions, so I knew we needed to add in more grammar instruction than just watching schoolhouse rock videos and talking about grammar informally.  I was also starting to explain spelling/reading rules more often in terms of parts of speech, which was hard to grasp with just informal grammar instruction. 

We tried some MCT first (I have the Island level books from my older kids) and he was so confused by it... 😄 I think it was just too flowery and abstract for him, because he really wasn't getting much from it.   In January we started IEW Fix-it book 1 (The NEW edition - it starts out at an easier level than the "old" level 1), and this has been a much better fit for him.   It's very straight forward, and the explanations are pretty clear.  Tricky things are repeated many times so there's plenty of chance to get it.  I give him a lot of grace on the homophone mistakes to fix, because I know that's pretty tough for him to spot as a dyslexic.  We actually do 2 pages per day (usually there is only 1 sentence per page), but I don't have him re-copy the sentence because I want him to save his best writing energy for our spelling instruction.  He is approx.  late 3rd/early 4th in terms of his reading level I would estimate, and he rarely has any issue reading the sentences, so the reading level is not too advanced in book one. 

We will probably switch to IEW for writing next year.  I don't prefer the next few W&R levels, so my other kids switched to other programs after the first two W&R books.  I think IEW will be a good fit, and I am hoping by next fall that DS10 will be ready to either hand write or type at least his Key Word Outlines for IEW and maybe even some of his whole sentences (maybe...or maybe toward the end of the year).  He is learning to type right now with TTRS, and has not moved very quickly but I am hoping his typing skills grow with a bit more practice time over the summer when we aren't doing as much other schoolwork.

Another grammar I see recommended in some dyslexia-specific groups is Winston Grammar.  I think it is well liked because it is more tactile, with grammar cards that are used to mark parts of speech, so that might be worth checking out.  If that looks more appealing, you could still use IEW or another program for writing.  Some people complain that Fix-it is too much "guessing" and kids aren't really internalizing the concepts, but I'm not seeing that so far, except sometimes on new concepts that DS10 hasn't developed very much familiarity with -- he would "guess" for the prepositions at first because he had no idea, but then the more I pointed them out and talked about their role in the sentence, the more often he would get it correct,and now he can find them most of the time. 

Edited to Add about MCT:   He understood/comprehended the Island level stories in terms of what was going on in the story itself, but somehow he didn't understand at all how it realted to analyzing sentences or using the grammar knowledge in other contexts like spelling or W&R.  It was confusing to him somehow that the things going on in the story were the same as "grammar" if that makes sense. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by kirstenhill

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

My 8 year old (turning 9 in July) will technically be a 4th grader next year. 

Or red shirt 3rd grader. Seems like that's about where he's functioning, and you're saying he skews young anyway.

10 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

He's done a little analyzing.

Did he *enjoy* it? If he did and your gut is saying he'd like MCT, there's no problem going that direction and doing something separate for writing.

10 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

IEW: At a glance, the themed writing programs look pretty neat to me. I could use a k-2 or even a 3-5. 

They are! I've done everything under the sun (haha) and I finally broke down and bought a level for my ds. IEW never fit my dd, mainly because it was overkill. But my ds, oh my it's just adorable and perfect! The goal at this age is to continue developing their narrative language, which means all you need in the curriculum is models that fit his language level and questions/prompts/analysis that fit his next steps. Kids just differ and it doesn't pay to get on a bandwagon for any one publisher or system. If your gut is saying something would be enjoyable to him, just do it! 

Which theme book were you looking at btw? I just got All Things Fun & Fascinating. We did some of the models from the sample and some more that I was able to find my surfing around. I'm very pleased with it for my ds. It's literally just a question of fitting the dc, not good/bad programs here. Seriously. And I can tell you MCT's target audience is NOT the kids IEW is written for. MCT is writing for gifted kids with strong language skills who can just crank anything out with modest instruction. Those kids exist, lol. Pudewa/IEW is writing for kids who struggle, who have a more typical language level, and who benefit from explicit structure and supports to get their writing out. My ds is 13 with about a 5th grade reading level, and for him SWI A (which we'll probably do next for even more practice) and the gr 3-5 target theme books are perfect, beautiful. He clicks with them and it actually makes sense. 

Maybe you could find a video on youtube of MCT explaining his products? I attended some of his sessions at conventions, so it makes more sense who his target market is and where he's coming from. Honestly neither of my kids (who both have very bright IQs) were good fits with his materials. And if a dc is working on narrative, you really don't need a ton of complexity anyway, just models that fit and give you structure so it actually gets done.

Maybe you'd like something simple for grammar like just a basic workbook? I think the MCT is fine if he enjoys it. If he doesn't (and it could go either way, just saying that's how I'd decide), maybe something like https://daythemthcsblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/success_with_grammar_grade_3.pdf  I like SWB's grammar FLL ½ (combined book) but never did 3 or higher, can't comment on them. I just find with my ds sometimes simple and straightforward is good. You can find the Scholastic Success with Grammar series pretty easily by searching. I got all the levels that way. Now I've ordered the colored books in SWB's grammar series so we'll probably give those a whirl. His language level has gone up enough and they target the more advanced language I want him to be interacting with. 

Does MCT grammar have some sample pages you can print and try?

[Ting Tang]

10 hours ago, kirstenhill said:

 I can tell you a bit about our experience -- With my youngest (currently 10/4th grade, with dyslexia/dysgraphia), we did the first two Writing and Rhetoric books orally this year.  I read it to him, and he responded orally.  Every now and then I would have him write or type a sentence or two of his responses, but not usually.  We've already finished both books -- he really liked it, so we moved pretty fast.  He really "got" the composition part when doing it orally but but quickly started getting stuck on some of the more grammar related questions, so I knew we needed to add in more grammar instruction than just watching schoolhouse rock videos and talking about grammar informally.  I was also starting to explain spelling/reading rules more often in terms of parts of speech, which was hard to grasp with just informal grammar instruction. 

We tried some MCT first (I have the Island level books from my older kids) and he was so confused by it... 😄 I think it was just too flowery and abstract for him, because he really wasn't getting much from it.   In January we started IEW Fix-it book 1 (The NEW edition - it starts out at an easier level than the "old" level 1), and this has been a much better fit for him.   It's very straight forward, and the explanations are pretty clear.  Tricky things are repeated many times so there's plenty of chance to get it.  I give him a lot of grace on the homophone mistakes to fix, because I know that's pretty tough for him to spot as a dyslexic.  We actually do 2 pages per day (usually there is only 1 sentence per page), but I don't have him re-copy the sentence because I want him to save his best writing energy for our spelling instruction.  He is approx.  late 3rd/early 4th in terms of his reading level I would estimate, and he rarely has any issue reading the sentences, so the reading level is not too advanced in book one. 

We will probably switch to IEW for writing next year.  I don't prefer the next few W&R levels, so my other kids switched to other programs after the first two W&R books.  I think IEW will be a good fit, and I am hoping by next fall that DS10 will be ready to either hand write or type at least his Key Word Outlines for IEW and maybe even some of his whole sentences (maybe...or maybe toward the end of the year).  He is learning to type right now with TTRS, and has not moved very quickly but I am hoping his typing skills grow with a bit more practice time over the summer when we aren't doing as much other schoolwork.

Another grammar I see recommended in some dyslexia-specific groups is Winston Grammar.  I think it is well liked because it is more tactile, with grammar cards that are used to mark parts of speech, so that might be worth checking out.  If that looks more appealing, you could still use IEW or another program for writing.  Some people complain that Fix-it is too much "guessing" and kids aren't really internalizing the concepts, but I'm not seeing that so far, except sometimes on new concepts that DS10 hasn't developed very much familiarity with -- he would "guess" for the prepositions at first because he had no idea, but then the more I pointed them out and talked about their role in the sentence, the more often he would get it correct,and now he can find them most of the time. 

Edited to Add about MCT:   He understood/comprehended the Island level stories in terms of what was going on in the story itself, but somehow he didn't understand at all how it realted to analyzing sentences or using the grammar knowledge in other contexts like spelling or W&R.  It was confusing to him somehow that the things going on in the story were the same as "grammar" if that makes sense. 

I think the main reason it appeals to me is the color and characters/story approach. But I know it’s written for gifted students, so much can’t promise the same thing wouldn’t happen to my son. I just do not know. I also read a review it didn’t spend time on punctuation, but I can’t verify that. IEW definitely seems like a safer choice. Thank you for sharing! 

[Ting Tang]

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Or red shirt 3rd grader. Seems like that's about where he's functioning, and you're saying he skews young anyway.

Did he *enjoy* it? If he did and your gut is saying he'd like MCT, there's no problem going that direction and doing something separate for writing.

They are! I've done everything under the sun (haha) and I finally broke down and bought a level for my ds. IEW never fit my dd, mainly because it was overkill. But my ds, oh my it's just adorable and perfect! The goal at this age is to continue developing their narrative language, which means all you need in the curriculum is models that fit his language level and questions/prompts/analysis that fit his next steps. Kids just differ and it doesn't pay to get on a bandwagon for any one publisher or system. If your gut is saying something would be enjoyable to him, just do it! 

Which theme book were you looking at btw? I just got All Things Fun & Fascinating. We did some of the models from the sample and some more that I was able to find my surfing around. I'm very pleased with it for my ds. It's literally just a question of fitting the dc, not good/bad programs here. Seriously. And I can tell you MCT's target audience is NOT the kids IEW is written for. MCT is writing for gifted kids with strong language skills who can just crank anything out with modest instruction. Those kids exist, lol. Pudewa/IEW is writing for kids who struggle, who have a more typical language level, and who benefit from explicit structure and supports to get their writing out. My ds is 13 with about a 5th grade reading level, and for him SWI A (which we'll probably do next for even more practice) and the gr 3-5 target theme books are perfect, beautiful. He clicks with them and it actually makes sense. 

Maybe you could find a video on youtube of MCT explaining his products? I attended some of his sessions at conventions, so it makes more sense who his target market is and where he's coming from. Honestly neither of my kids (who both have very bright IQs) were good fits with his materials. And if a dc is working on narrative, you really don't need a ton of complexity anyway, just models that fit and give you structure so it actually gets done.

Maybe you'd like something simple for grammar like just a basic workbook? I think the MCT is fine if he enjoys it. If he doesn't (and it could go either way, just saying that's how I'd decide), maybe something like https://daythemthcsblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/success_with_grammar_grade_3.pdf  I like SWB's grammar FLL ½ (combined book) but never did 3 or higher, can't comment on them. I just find with my ds sometimes simple and straightforward is good. You can find the Scholastic Success with Grammar series pretty easily by searching. I got all the levels that way. Now I've ordered the colored books in SWB's grammar series so we'll probably give those a whirl. His language level has gone up enough and they target the more advanced language I want him to be interacting with. 

Does MCT grammar have some sample pages you can print and try?

Thank you so much for your insightful reply! MCT intrigued me with its colorful story approach, but I could not really see too many examples of the writing exercises. I think if it’s written to the top 5% of students, though, I do feel it’s a bit riskier if a choice. But it seemed it takes a slower approach, just on sentences the first level? I can’t really tell. It would be nice to have some beautiful materials. IEW seems like a much safer choice, though! I looked at the Fascinating book in depth, also a lower level about community members. I’m going to take a look at your other suggestions. Thank you again! 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Ting Tang

[bluemongoose]

We have used both MCT and IEW with fixit among other things such as CLE LA. 

I have 3 dyslexic sons. The oldest did fine learning grammar without MCT. However, we attempted W&R Fable after finishing WWE and it flopped. He needed the very structured form of writing instruction from IEW. Switching to IEW has really worked well for him. This son also tested borderline dysgraphic. The KWO in IEW seemed to really help him make forward progress in working through his difficulties with getting thoughts on paper. 

My next son couldn't understand parts of speech after many different attempts over 3 years. We then got MCT and through the stories, the colored words, and the diagrams, it finally clicked for him. However, the writing portion was well beyond his ability. I tried to push through with the writing, I regret that! After trying to do writing for Island and half of Town, we switched to  IEW for writing and that has been a really good fit. After he finished reading through MCT voyage level, I put him in CLE LA for grammar. This has worked well. He couldn't have done CLE if we had not done MCT first. We skip the writing portion of CLE and continue with IEW for writing.

My third son, who has the benefit of his older brothers being the guinea pigs, has been doing IEW from the beginning. I'm skipping all the writing portion of MCT and just reading it to him. He then does CLE (a grade behind) to practice the grammar and do spelling. 

All 3 are still doing Fixit as well. It is so very quick, it doesn't add too much time to the lessons. I love that it is a good lesson in editing, but I feel that it is not 100% of the grammar instruction they need. It doesn't have diagramming for example. I also find that CLE has them apply the grammar instruction in the lesson. Fixit, to me, serves a different function so I just do both.

All that to say, MCT has been a wonderful grammar introduction and effective in solidifying parts of speech, parts of sentences, and how it all works to create thoughtful writing. However, the actual writing work was too much. 

IEW has been great for breaking down writing and teaching it in a step by step reachable way. They still sometimes complain, and they still do not love writing, but they would agree that IEW has been the best thing for writing they have used. 

 

[Ting Tang]

9 hours ago, bluemongoose said:

We have used both MCT and IEW with fixit among other things such as CLE LA. 

I have 3 dyslexic sons. The oldest did fine learning grammar without MCT. However, we attempted W&R Fable after finishing WWE and it flopped. He needed the very structured form of writing instruction from IEW. Switching to IEW has really worked well for him. This son also tested borderline dysgraphic. The KWO in IEW seemed to really help him make forward progress in working through his difficulties with getting thoughts on paper. 

My next son couldn't understand parts of speech after many different attempts over 3 years. We then got MCT and through the stories, the colored words, and the diagrams, it finally clicked for him. However, the writing portion was well beyond his ability. I tried to push through with the writing, I regret that! After trying to do writing for Island and half of Town, we switched to  IEW for writing and that has been a really good fit. After he finished reading through MCT voyage level, I put him in CLE LA for grammar. This has worked well. He couldn't have done CLE if we had not done MCT first. We skip the writing portion of CLE and continue with IEW for writing.

My third son, who has the benefit of his older brothers being the guinea pigs, has been doing IEW from the beginning. I'm skipping all the writing portion of MCT and just reading it to him. He then does CLE (a grade behind) to practice the grammar and do spelling. 

All 3 are still doing Fixit as well. It is so very quick, it doesn't add too much time to the lessons. I love that it is a good lesson in editing, but I feel that it is not 100% of the grammar instruction they need. It doesn't have diagramming for example. I also find that CLE has them apply the grammar instruction in the lesson. Fixit, to me, serves a different function so I just do both.

All that to say, MCT has been a wonderful grammar introduction and effective in solidifying parts of speech, parts of sentences, and how it all works to create thoughtful writing. However, the actual writing work was too much. 

IEW has been great for breaking down writing and teaching it in a step by step reachable way. They still sometimes complain, and they still do not love writing, but they would agree that IEW has been the best thing for writing they have used. 

 

Thank you so very much!  I think that I am going to have my more challenged learner go with a more procedural writing program after all for all the reasons you mentioned, but he can read the fun MCT books.  For my more accelerated learners, we may try it as a core curriculum.  I think they'll be able to enjoy the writing, now that I have a bit of an understanding of what it looks like.  🙂

[Green Bean]

I’m confused- have you had evals done?

Why are you trying to do more advanced work when he is still struggling to read? With kids with issues, IME, it’s better to solve one major problem at a time. Reading is the foundation for everything else. Get that solid then branch out to other skills.

I would encourage you to take a summer curriculum break and not look at anything while you work on his reading.

As far as other academic areas, sometimes just flat starting over is the best path whether it be math or language arts. “But child will be bored!”Shockingly, no they won’t. Once again IME, the child is relieved to finally fill the holes and gains confidence as they see they CAN succeed. “But they will be ‘behind’!” Behind whom? Homeschoolers can’t be ‘behind’. We meet our kids where they are and move at the pace the child can learn at. Grade levels and being ‘behind’ are false constructs created by brick and mortar schools. (I’m not talking about kids whose parents have done zero educating. Those kids are behind. I’m talking about all of us here who are trying each day to meet our kids’ needs.)

It’s a hard slog. It seems slow. We all want the kids to just hurry up and get there some days. But trying to push on when the child is not ready is like trying to push the boulder uphill.

Hang in there, Momma! Take a step back and regroup.

🌺🌸

[Ting Tang]

9 hours ago, Green Bean said:

I’m confused- have you had evals done?

Why are you trying to do more advanced work when he is still struggling to read? With kids with issues, IME, it’s better to solve one major problem at a time. Reading is the foundation for everything else. Get that solid then branch out to other skills.

I would encourage you to take a summer curriculum break and not look at anything while you work on his reading.

As far as other academic areas, sometimes just flat starting over is the best path whether it be math or language arts. “But child will be bored!”Shockingly, no they won’t. Once again IME, the child is relieved to finally fill the holes and gains confidence as they see they CAN succeed. “But they will be ‘behind’!” Behind whom? Homeschoolers can’t be ‘behind’. We meet our kids where they are and move at the pace the child can learn at. Grade levels and being ‘behind’ are false constructs created by brick and mortar schools. (I’m not talking about kids whose parents have done zero educating. Those kids are behind. I’m talking about all of us here who are trying each day to meet our kids’ needs.)

It’s a hard slog. It seems slow. We all want the kids to just hurry up and get there some days. But trying to push on when the child is not ready is like trying to push the boulder uphill.

Hang in there, Momma! Take a step back and regroup.

🌺🌸

Thank you so much!  I think at first I thought the style would appeal to him, but we are going to finish AAR first. He might do the Poodle books with his sister, but I think AAR and some MP enrichment is what we will do. I think my oldest who didn’t like MP will do MCT.