How much writing is enough?

[Sue G in PA]

So, after this conversation w/ my step MIL who seems to now know everything about homeschooling b/c she has a few friends who homeschool in her neigborhood....I am questioning how much writing is enough...specifically for my 5th and 7th grader. 7th grade dd does LL7 and has a paper to write for each Unit. She does LLATL Green which includes dictation. She will be writing a country report as part of MFW ECC. I allow her time for creative writing on her own (stories, poems, journaling, letters, etc.). Is this enough? Should we be doing more? I had thought about going back to Ancient History based Writing lessons from IEW (which she didn't finish last year) or ordering Jump In for the spring.

 

How about 5th grade? My son does Writing Tales 2. He writes creatively on his own (stories, movie scripts, letters, etc.) and does dictation w/ LLATL Purple. Is THAT enough? He'll do a smaller country report w/ MFW ECC later this year. What am I missing? Anything? I'm just so frustrated and doubting I'm preparing them sufficiently for upper level writing. Thanks.

[joannqn]

I've decided not to even bother with formal writing in the earlier years. My 2nd grader is using Spectrum Language Arts workbooks to learn basic grammar and punctuation. My language arts gifted 4th grader is using IEW level A for the first time this year. She's been doing about 1-2 lessons a month with that. The only things it has covered so far is identifying keywords, creating a title, and using adjectives/adverbs/active verbs. That's the closest thing to formal writing we've done. We don't do any dictation at all. Neither of them know anything about researching and writing a formal report of any length and I don't expect to get to that anytime soon.

 

I figure there will be plenty of time to learn how to write formal reports in middle and high school. Right now, I'd rather that they enjoy writing by writing creatively when they want. It sounds to me like you are doing plenty of writing for your kids' ages.

 

I wanted to add that I hear about 2nd graders writing "reports" in public school and I don't let it phase me at all. Just because the public schoolers do things differently doesn't mean they'll learn it any better.

Edited December 11, 2008 by joannqn

[LisaKinVA]

Quantity of writing, does not equal quality of writing.

 

Public school children *have* to write everything down, because that's the way the teacher monitors their learning. Homeschoolers have many other options.

 

In general, an "average" 3rd grade student should be able to write a minimum 1-2 page, single-spaced (on wide-ruled) paper, with an introduction, body -- containing 2-3 main points -- and conclusion. They do not need to do this every week, though -- this is by the end of the year. It's something you build up to.

 

All of the journals, narrations, and things you're doing are providing more than enough opportunities for your children to build the skills necessary for the "end" goal.

 

By 4th grade, I expect my children to be able to write a short essay answer (3-6 sentences) daily, with a 1-2 page paper each week (or every other week, depending upon what else we have going on). A book report is usually 2-3 pages, but only about 4-5 of those per year.

 

By 5th grade, we switch to college-ruled paper, and we stick with the 1-2 page papers, add in a 4-5 page report (one each semester)

 

The writing elements grow with the child yearly. It's a gradual process.

 

By middle school, a child should be able to write a decent research paper (8-10 pages, plus bibliography and endnotes). But, there would really only be 2-3 of these a year (science, English and history).

 

High School, I would expect a paper each semester in English, and one per year in history and science. This wouldn't include essays (1-2 pagers, usually test related). It wouldn't include creative writing assignments (of which there would be plenty), And somewhere between 10th and 11th grade switch from endnotes to the now popular MLA style papers.

 

Now, most of these lengths are based upon handwritten assignments -- but translate well to a double-spaced, typed paper (which is usually how work must be turned in at a public school, etc. -- in order to be marked up properly).

 

You're doing just fine... it sounds like your children are doing quite a bit of writing (things they enjoy, plus assigned).

[sassenach]

I can't speak for your 7th grader, but IMO wt2 is plenty for a 5th grader. I'm finishing it up with my 6th grader and then we're going to start working on essay writing.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

So, after this conversation w/ my step MIL who seems to now know everything about homeschooling b/c she has a few friends who homeschool in her neigborhood....I am questioning how much writing is enough...specifically for my 5th and 7th grader. 7th grade dd does LL7 and has a paper to write for each Unit. She does LLATL Green which includes dictation. She will be writing a country report as part of MFW ECC. I allow her time for creative writing on her own (stories, poems, journaling, letters, etc.). Is this enough? Should we be doing more? I had thought about going back to Ancient History based Writing lessons from IEW (which she didn't finish last year) or ordering Jump In for the spring.

 

How about 5th grade? My son does Writing Tales 2. He writes creatively on his own (stories, movie scripts, letters, etc.) and does dictation w/ LLATL Purple. Is THAT enough? He'll do a smaller country report w/ MFW ECC later this year. What am I missing? Anything? I'm just so frustrated and doubting I'm preparing them sufficiently for upper level writing. Thanks.

 

 

The mechanics of writing can be taught later, but, the love of writing and creativity of writing is a little bit harder to teach. They get a lot of the mechanics from dictation and copywork. I usually have them copywork the different rules for the mistakes they are making regarding sentence structure, punctuation, and grammar. If they keep on making the same mistakes, I use that as an opportunity to teach more in depth that particular skill.

 

I think we get so wrapped up in making sure that they understand all the mechanics that we miss out on the love of writing. It sounds to me like your dc love writing. What a blessing! Let go of the temptation to really supplement, supplement, supplement because of expectations of others. You know what your dc can do. If they are struggling with a certain aspect of writing, by all means, supplement away if you feel it's necessary. I would, however, leave it alone in the case of your dc. They seem to love it and get it all at the same time. Enjoy the process!

[joannqn]

In general, an "average" 3rd grade student should be able to write a minimum 1-2 page, single-spaced (on wide-ruled) paper, with an introduction, body -- containing 2-3 main points -- and conclusion. They do not need to do this every week, though -- this is by the end of the year. It's something you build up to.

 

All of the journals, narrations, and things you're doing are providing more than enough opportunities for your children to build the skills necessary for the "end" goal.

 

By 4th grade, I expect my children to be able to write a short essay answer (3-6 sentences) daily, with a 1-2 page paper each week (or every other week, depending upon what else we have going on). A book report is usually 2-3 pages, but only about 4-5 of those per year.

 

Wow! This is a LOT of work! My kids would never tolerate that much writing. It would destroy any desire to learn on their part and we'd be back to crying every day and learning nothing. Seeing these kinds of expectations really makes me glad we can tailor homeschool to the individual child. We get the best results when we don't require that much formal work.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Quantity of writing, does not equal quality of writing.

 

Public school children *have* to write everything down, because that's the way the teacher monitors their learning. Homeschoolers have many other options.

 

In general, an "average" 3rd grade student should be able to write a minimum 1-2 page, single-spaced (on wide-ruled) paper, with an introduction, body -- containing 2-3 main points -- and conclusion. They do not need to do this every week, though -- this is by the end of the year. It's something you build up to.

 

All of the journals, narrations, and things you're doing are providing more than enough opportunities for your children to build the skills necessary for the "end" goal.

 

By 4th grade, I expect my children to be able to write a short essay answer (3-6 sentences) daily, with a 1-2 page paper each week (or every other week, depending upon what else we have going on). A book report is usually 2-3 pages, but only about 4-5 of those per year.

 

By 5th grade, we switch to college-ruled paper, and we stick with the 1-2 page papers, add in a 4-5 page report (one each semester)

 

The writing elements grow with the child yearly. It's a gradual process.

 

By middle school, a child should be able to write a decent research paper (8-10 pages, plus bibliography and endnotes). But, there would really only be 2-3 of these a year (science, English and history).

 

High School, I would expect a paper each semester in English, and one per year in history and science. This wouldn't include essays (1-2 pagers, usually test related). It wouldn't include creative writing assignments (of which there would be plenty), And somewhere between 10th and 11th grade switch from endnotes to the now popular MLA style papers.

 

Now, most of these lengths are based upon handwritten assignments -- but translate well to a double-spaced, typed paper (which is usually how work must be turned in at a public school, etc. -- in order to be marked up properly).

 

You're doing just fine... it sounds like your children are doing quite a bit of writing (things they enjoy, plus assigned).

 

Great post!

 

In my experience homeschooling four boys, I have found that they have a huge jump in ability sometime in the middle of third grade. When my oldest was only 8, I think I would have doubted your standards, too. Now that my oldest two are 12 and 10, I entirely agree with you. :)

 

We don't really use a set curriculum for writing. Mostly, I just apply Charlotte Mason's philosophies about English to whatever we're using for other subjects. My youngest son is transitioning from just copywork, dictation, and narration to half page papers. I'm sure he'll be able to write a full page report by the end of the year.

 

To the OP: I'm sorry about your MIL. Nothing like a heaping helping of self-doubt from a relative!

[joannqn]

Great post!

 

In my experience homeschooling four boys, I have found that they have a huge jump in ability sometime in the middle of third grade. When my oldest was only 8, I think I would have doubted your standards, too. Now that my oldest two are 12 and 10, I entirely agree with you. :)

 

Do you think this jump (or willingness to write without melting down) occurs based on age or grade? My 8 year old is officially in 4th grade. I say officially because we use a virtual academy run by the public school district and they've accelerated her official grade level. Last year she tested at a 9th grade reading level and above 10th grade for language usage. Our academic adviser says she's "gifted" in writing based on creative writing samples. Yet, if I were to require that much formal writing of her, we'd get nowhere in school because she'd be crying all day instead. Currently, she writes 1 or 2 one-paragraph papers for IEW per month and does some notebooking for science. Any other writing she does is strictly creative writing that she does for fun. I have no idea where or how she learned her language arts/grammar/writing skills because I didn't teach it. So, will she be able to tolerate more formal writing when she reaches 4th grade age?

[Guest janainaz]

I'm following WWE and the recommendations of SWB. I can't go back and reiterate all of it, but it made complete sense to me. I don't know if you've ever read her suggestions/opinions, but it really helped me understand what needs to be taught and when. I'm going to be re-learning right along with my son. I'm terrified of teaching writing and especially in the higher grades. However, the understanding I received from reading what SWB wrote helped me at least know where we should be headed.

 

http://www.peacehillpress.com/samplepdfs/03-why-writing-fails.pdf

 

http://www.peacehillpress.com/samplepdfs/04-three-stages.pdf

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Do you think this jump (or willingness to write without melting down) occurs based on age or grade? My 8 year old is officially in 4th grade. I say officially because we use a virtual academy run by the public school district and they've accelerated her official grade level. Last year she tested at a 9th grade reading level and above 10th grade for language usage. Our academic adviser says she's "gifted" in writing based on creative writing samples. Yet, if I were to require that much formal writing of her, we'd get nowhere in school because she'd be crying all day instead. Currently, she writes 1 or 2 one-paragraph papers for IEW per month and does some notebooking for science. Any other writing she does is strictly creative writing that she does for fun. I have no idea where or how she learned her language arts/grammar/writing skills because I didn't teach it. So, will she be able to tolerate more formal writing when she reaches 4th grade age?

 

JoAnn, your daughter sounds so much like my second son. Reading your description and thinking about my Jonas, I have to say my theory/opinion wasn't well-stated. You are exactly right. I should have said age instead of grade. Jonas was also very advanced in his vocabulary and creative writing yet unable to write much for schoolwork.

 

I found it hard to tell if Jonas was more willing or more able to do writing assignments at age 10. All I know is that he couldn't do it at 9 and he could at 10! LOL

[joannqn]

It must be a developmental issue.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

(I'm still thinking about this. I keep typing and then deleting)

 

I think I would have counted the IEW, the notebooking, and the creative writing as real writing. Many skills involved. If you consider that a paper is just three of those IEW paragraphs, except that they happen to be written on the same topic, then POOF. She could theoretically write a paper. So by the end of the year, if she'd willingly and happily write three times on the same subject, then she'd meet Lisa's stringent third grade requirement of one paper by the end of third grade (age).

 

She'd have to understand concepts of introduction and closing, but that just takes a minute if she's ready to hear it.

 

I think the developmental part is just the child thinking, "Yes, I can do that. It is the same amount of writing that I usually do, only all at once." Jonas wouldn't believe that when he was 8, even though I'm sure he could have done it.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Sorry for hijacking the thread! The OP's question struck a nerve with me because I really struggled with it myself a few years ago. I believed that the copywork, narration, and dictation were enough, and my instincts told me that it was better to go slow and let the child be happy and learning....yet I had to admit he'd probably flunk a public school English test.

 

I didn't know what was coming. The reward was coming. The children turned 10 years old (or thereabouts) and had all the confidence and skills to write well. It worked. They were very shortly ready for big things like essays, summaries, and grammar. The 12 year old can do research papers. It all turned out OK.

[LisaKinVA]

Wow! This is a LOT of work! My kids would never tolerate that much writing. It would destroy any desire to learn on their part and we'd be back to crying every day and learning nothing. Seeing these kinds of expectations really makes me glad we can tailor homeschool to the individual child. We get the best results when we don't require that much formal work.

 

There are developmental/age related things that may all play into the timeline I wrote down. It gives me a general idea as to what we're shooting for.

 

The key is to break things down into parts. For example, for the 1-2 page end-of-the year thing. We brainstorm one day (just write down things he might want to write about), then we choose 2-3. Then we brainstorm again about each of those, what kinds of things we could write about (for example: Legos -- who invented them, where they were invented, when they were invented, legos then, legos now, other things legos makes... and on and on. We then choose one topic (another day), take the notes we made and create an outline. Then another day, use the outline to create the body (rough draft), another day for the introduction, and another day for the conclusion. Then we read the whole thing aloud to see how it sounds, and try to correct any spelling and grammar errors. This may take a couple of days. Lastly, we do a "final draft" -- where they either hand-copy or type their final copy. I have one child who likes to make her writings very artistic -- so then she grabs the construction paper, pens, and starts decorating.

 

But, throughout the year, they are getting practice for this type of writing in small chunks (mostly short-answers to questions for literature, narrations for history and science). It's not a "sit down and write" a page a day or anything close to that.

 

A 3rd grade book report, for example -- is, for us, almost a fill in the blank kind of thing. Space at the top for the Book Title and Author. First prompt: Who is the story about (characters)? Second prompt: Describe one important event that happens in the story. Third prompt: Did you like this book? Would you reccomend this book to a friend? (please explain why or why not, using an example from the story). They may use the book to refer back to anything they wish, as well.

 

That's it. The book report -- like any "formal paper" can be done over a period of time, not in one chunk. Each section of the book report is about 3 sentences. We still would do the rough draft, edit and final draft for this.

 

I'm sure if I sat my 9yo down to do this all at once I'd get whiney, melt down. Developmentally, he's not quite there... almost, but not quite. But at 9yo, his ability and willingness to write is a far cry from where he was a year ago!

 

Even at the beginning of the year, getting him to write 3 sentences about a topic was a struggle. However, most recently, his short answers have blossommed into 2 paragraphs (but, my minimum hasn't changed... 3 sentences.) He's found he has more he can say, and he wants to say it.

 

He's made a game out of his spelling sentences. Instead of writing 5-10 individual sentences showing he understands what the words mean, he crafts little stories using all of them. Some of them are quite clever.

 

Every little thing you do that incorporates writing in some small way is building the skills they need.

 

I just don't want you to think that we make a formal writing assignment a daily activity (it's more like a couple of days a week, but in very SMALL 15-30 minute chunks ... the longer time is when we're brainstorming).

 

Lisa

[LisaKinVA]

(I'm still thinking about this. I keep typing and then deleting)

 

I think I would have counted the IEW, the notebooking, and the creative writing as real writing. Many skills involved. If you consider that a paper is just three of those IEW paragraphs, except that they happen to be written on the same topic, then POOF. She could theoretically write a paper. So by the end of the year, if she'd willingly and happily write three times on the same subject, then she'd meet Lisa's stringent third grade requirement of one paper by the end of third grade (age).

 

She'd have to understand concepts of introduction and closing, but that just takes a minute if she's ready to hear it.

 

I think the developmental part is just the child thinking, "Yes, I can do that. It is the same amount of writing that I usually do, only all at once." Jonas wouldn't believe that when he was 8, even though I'm sure he could have done it.

 

Exactly, all of the little things count as writing. It doesn't have to be "formal" assigned writing to build the skills -- nor does a formal paper have to be done all at once.

 

I believe the first time I was "required" to write a formal essay in class was in the 8th grade -- but many students I came into contact with had their first essay test in the 9th grade (that's about 1 page, college ruled, all at once). Up until the 8th grade, any formally graded work was done along a time-line. And definitely, any reports (no matter what age) should be done along a time line, and include a rough draft, re-write/edit and final draft stage.