AoPS or Elements of Math?

[Octavio]

My son Is 9 years old. At 2.5 years of age we noted His precociousness at Maths. Has had one on one math tutoring from age 3 (mostly through ganes at first, more formally for a couple of years). Attending Epsilon Camp 2021.

Would like for him to start a More organized program. His current tutoring is 5 days a week and given by a mathematician but a bit disorganized. 

What are the PROs AND CONs of these two programs?

[kirstenhill]

Here's a recent thread that's worth a read if you haven't seen it. This topic was discussed:. https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/706996-elements-of-mathematics-foundations-reviews-x-posted/

[Cake and Pi]

This would be a good question to ask at one of the Epsilon parent happy hours. There is one coming up focused on homeschooling, but you could ask at any of them this week and potentially get some feedback.

[Not_a_Number]

11 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

This would be a good question to ask at one of the Epsilon parent happy hours. There is one coming up focused on homeschooling, but you could ask at any of them this week and potentially get some feedback.

What is this happy hour? I take it it's only for parents of campers? 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

For what it's worth, I'd probably stick with tutoring. What's making his current tutoring disorganized? 

[Cake and Pi]

20 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

What is this happy hour? I take it it's only for parents of campers? 

Yeah, it's only for parents of this year's campers.

In normal years when camp is in-person, Epsilon runs a parent program while the kids are in classes. It's pretty awesome to be able to connect with and share resources and experiences with other parents of kids who are so enthusiastic about math. It was probably *my* favorite part of taking my kid to camp in 2019. (You know, in case you were looking for something fun to do next summer, lol.)

They didn't really have anything planned for parents during the virtual version of camp this year, but another AL board member and Epsilon parent volunteered to put together a series of Zoom-based happy hours for the parents that are running most of this week. Since these weren't part of the original program for this year, I'm not sure if all the parents are aware of them yet.

[Not_a_Number]

27 minutes ago, Cake and Pi said:

Yeah, it's only for parents of this year's campers.

In normal years when camp is in-person, Epsilon runs a parent program while the kids are in classes. It's pretty awesome to be able to connect with and share resources and experiences with other parents of kids who are so enthusiastic about math. It was probably *my* favorite part of taking my kid to camp in 2019. (You know, in case you were looking for something fun to do next summer, lol.)

They didn't really have anything planned for parents during the virtual version of camp this year, but another AL board member and Epsilon parent volunteered to put together a series of Zoom-based happy hours for the parents that are running most of this week. Since these weren't part of the original program for this year, I'm not sure if all the parents are aware of them yet.

Aah, fun! 

We kind of played around with the idea of sending DD9, but they were very insistent on having an IQ test as confirmation, and I kind of don't feel like dealing with IQ tests... especially since knowing DD9, she'd need to have at least a tiny bit of practice on those kinds of questions -- she blows things out of a sense of unfamiliarity and panic that has nothing to do with her intelligence. But then prepping for an IQ test seems silly. 

I wish they'd take things like the SCAT or a Math Kangaroo score or something 😛 . I feel like we've taken enough tests already! 

[Octavio]

On 7/26/2021 at 11:59 AM, Not_a_Number said:

For what it's worth, I'd probably stick with tutoring. What's making his current tutoring disorganized? 

Thanks... It's just that the tutor Is a mathematician, not a teacher I guess. So the lessons dont neccessarily follow a curriculum. This can be good as it allows my kid to direct learning to his interests (like spending several weeks studying combinatorics while learning how to solve Rubik's cube). But can also make some lessons dull... I guess there is also the sense of not having More of a structure to the learning. 

A good solution might be to keep the tutor but give them a curriculum to follow (as well as the freedom to expand on it or go on digressions or tangents). 

For what it's worth he is really enjoying Epsilon even though It is a lot of work. 

[Octavio]

On 7/26/2021 at 11:56 AM, Not_a_Number said:

What is this happy hour? I take it it's only for parents of campers? 

You are right. I have missed those due to my job. I hope there is still one or two I can catch. 

[Octavio]

On 7/26/2021 at 12:33 AM, Cake and Pi said:

This would be a good question to ask at one of the Epsilon parent happy hours. There is one coming up focused on homeschooling, but you could ask at any of them this week and potentially get some feedback.

I meant to reply to your post:

You are right. I have unfortunately missed the Happy hour zoom calls due to my job. I hope there are still one or two left I can get on. 

[Octavio]

On 7/26/2021 at 1:06 PM, Not_a_Number said:

Aah, fun! 

We kind of played around with the idea of sending DD9, but they were very insistent on having an IQ test as confirmation, and I kind of don't feel like dealing with IQ tests... especially since knowing DD9, she'd need to have at least a tiny bit of practice on those kinds of questions -- she blows things out of a sense of unfamiliarity and panic that has nothing to do with her intelligence. But then prepping for an IQ test seems silly. 

I wish they'd take things like the SCAT or a Math Kangaroo score or something 😛 . I feel like we've taken enough tests already! 

I hear you. I don't care too much about IQ tests myself. We have tried to go with the Growth Mindset thing (though I realize there may be some conflicting evidence about it and in all likelihood both Nature AND Nurture play a role). 

In our case our son had taken an IQ test when he was much younger. For years he never knew about the test or what it purportedly showed. I think it is better that way. 

[Not_a_Number]

8 hours ago, Octavio said:

Thanks... It's just that the tutor Is a mathematician, not a teacher I guess. So the lessons dont neccessarily follow a curriculum. This can be good as it allows my kid to direct learning to his interests (like spending several weeks studying combinatorics while learning how to solve Rubik's cube). But can also make some lessons dull... I guess there is also the sense of not having More of a structure to the learning. 

A good solution might be to keep the tutor but give them a curriculum to follow (as well as the freedom to expand on it or go on digressions or tangents). 

For what it's worth he is really enjoying Epsilon even though It is a lot of work. 

I'm a mathematician, too 🙂 . I also direct my daughter's learning to her interests, although it sounds like we're more organized than your tutor is. 

With some of my tutor kids, I simply go through the AoPS books. I do think that this is probably more effective than the online class, since we can spend as long as a kid needs on a given concept and quickly go over other stuff. I don't know if your tutor is able to gauge things like that in the same way, but if so, that's a real advantage. 

[Cake and Pi]

11 hours ago, Octavio said:

I meant to reply to your post:

You are right. I have unfortunately missed the Happy hour zoom calls due to my job. I hope there are still one or two left I can get on. 

Last one is tonight at 6 PM Pacific/ 9 PM Eastern! Check your email for the link from the camp director.

[Octavio]

On 7/29/2021 at 7:07 AM, Not_a_Number said:

I'm a mathematician, too 🙂 . I also direct my daughter's learning to her interests, although it sounds like we're more organized than your tutor is. 

With some of my tutor kids, I simply go through the AoPS books. I do think that this is probably more effective than the online class, since we can spend as long as a kid needs on a given concept and quickly go over other stuff. I don't know if your tutor is able to gauge things like that in the same way, but if so, that's a real advantage. 

I bought several of the AOPS books but we are still doing the tutoring online so it's not neccessarily practical to follow them. I thought the Elements of Math program online could be something they follow and expand on (or digress from) as needed. 

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Octavio said:

I bought several of the AOPS books but we are still doing the tutoring online so it's not neccessarily practical to follow them. I thought the Elements of Math program online could be something they follow and expand on (or digress from) as needed. 

Oh, why is it impractical? 

[Octavio]

On 7/30/2021 at 8:04 PM, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, why is it impractical? 

For one thing, my kid has the book home while the tutor doesn't and you can't really share It live as you would do if you were simply sharing your screen. Maybe I am overthinking it... 

[Not_a_Number]

4 hours ago, Octavio said:

For one thing, my kid has the book home while the tutor doesn't and you can't really share It live as you would do if you were simply sharing your screen. Maybe I am overthinking it... 

I have the online books for the tutoring 🙂 . You could try that if you’re willing to buy them?

[Cake and Pi]

9 hours ago, Octavio said:

For one thing, my kid has the book home while the tutor doesn't and you can't really share It live as you would do if you were simply sharing your screen. Maybe I am overthinking it... 

As Not a Number said, the books are also online. If you bought the physical books from AoPS directly, you can reach out to AoPS customer service about a book upgrade. They sell the online book as a $20 add-on to the physical book bundle and will generally let you tack the online book onto a physical book order at a later date if you ask nicely.

[ChickaDeeDeeDee]

I know this is a bit of an older thread, but since we have AOPS and Elements of Mathematics experience I'll post my two cents just in case it's useful to anyone.  

 

On 7/30/2021 at 8:55 PM, Octavio said:

I thought the Elements of Math program online could be something they follow and expand on (or digress from) as needed. 

I think the Elements of Mathematics program is really great.  It is *very* wonderful for my child that loves the mathematical world from a conceptual level, would be considered mathematically gifted, doesn't like to do a lot of writing, and would rather ponder infinity than do competition math problems. It is also great for my logical, honors level but not gifted in math kid, but in different ways.  They both love doing it but I can see that they "get it" in different ways.  If you're looking for something that more or less resembles a public school scope and sequence then this program really isn't what you're looking for.  The topic headings won't be apples to apples what they would see, though all the concepts are covered.  For example,  multiplying two binomials  is presented in the context of studying Rings in  an Abstract Algebra unit and students are led through constructing a proof rather than being directly instructed to use the FOIL method.  

I would almost say that I think EMF *is* the expansion.  

 

On 7/29/2021 at 12:03 AM, Octavio said:

It's just that the tutor Is a mathematician, not a teacher

We don't have experience with math tutors,  but my son takes lessons with a person who has achieved the highest level of the thing they work on together (being vague for privacy reasons).  Even though there are plenty of topics that could be studied in the area their time together never outwardly appears geared toward one of these topics.  It is very wholistic and involves a lot of thinking like a person who does that thing at a professional level.   My son practices the component skills of the thing outside of his time with this person to be ready to work on the bigger picture with this person.   If I were looking for someone to help more with the component skills of the topic I'd look for someone who was going to provide direct instruction in those specific skills with a specific competence goal in mind.   All depends on what one needs at the time....   and what one's long term goals are.  If the goal is becoming a mathematician I would find the best personal fit with a mathematician that I could afford (sometimes the best fit is different than the "best teacher").  If the goal is to be able to perform well on a test or to get an A in a school class/subject I would find the best fit with a tutor who understood those goals and focused on helping do it.    

[kiwik]

On 8/1/2021 at 11:28 PM, Not_a_Number said:

I have the online books for the tutoring 🙂 . You could try that if you’re willing to buy them?

I bought the book/online book combo.  That way one person can use each.