Right Start D or ?? for 3rd grade

[gck21]

I'll have a 3rd grader next year. He enjoys math and it comes quickly for him. We've been using Right Start which is really the ideal program for me rather than for him. I don't have a strong math background. I read the whole level before teaching it, and I have loved teaching this program. My son has found it slow, although it seems like whenever it is at its most tedious, the program will switch topics to something he finds fun, like fractions or geometric drawing (he loved that this year). He doesn't hate the program. He also takes short standardized tests at the beginning and end of each school year and performs much higher than grade level, even though we are doing Right Start on grade level. (I know these standardized tests don't mean much, but it seems a general way to see that Right Start has given him a good conceptual framework and he can apply what he knows to more difficult problems than he usually gets).

But, this year he pushed back a lot on doing Beast Academy as a supplement (although there is a strong possibility he just hated the comic book aspect because nothing turns him off more quickly than when I take one of his interests and try to turn it into school). He also has been making a good amount of careless mistakes. I have checked and rechecked that he understands what he is doing and what went wrong, but he would just rather go super fast and miss 5 out of 20 problems on a worksheet then do it correctly (and slower) the first time. The mistakes are things like not noticing whether it was an addition or subtraction problem. Or not reading the word problem to answer the question instead of just answering whatever question he wanted to answer. My instinct says that these things could also be related to repeatedly doing math that seems easy all the time.

I am trying to decide if I should continue on with Right Start D for next year or if I should switch. This is the last grade I am considering doing Right Start with him.  When he is in 4th grade, I will have a 2nd grader and a Kinder, and I don't think I can run three Right Start lessons because they are so teacher intensive. I am looking at Singapore and Math Mammoth for the next step. Any advice?

Edited April 3, 2021 by gck21

[Kiara.I]

I'd stick with it, it's working. I think the careless mistakes are an age thing, actually. All mine have seemed to do it.

And I'd encourage you to consider staying with Rightstart. It gets less parent intensive in E and F, especially of you either skip some of the games when your child doesn't need them, or move then to a different day. 

[HomeAgain]

Well, we made it through Right Start E, and while we left it for different reasons, I will say that the program in D and E had some strengths, like the geometry lessons and short long division, and some weaknesses, like that it didn't teach multiplication or fractions as well as other programs I have on my shelf.  Don't get me wrong - it certainly made sure facts were memorized, but I walked away feeling like the many manipulatives were actually a drawback in this area.

Since you are considering the move to Math Mammoth, which is less parent intensive than Singapore and Right Start, I would definitely print out a sample and go over it with your kid.  If you both liked it well enough, possibly do one of the $6-8 topical books to get more of a feel for it.  If not, stick with Right Start.

[MomN]

I did RS through C. Then it just got too slow for us. I did like it through C though. My ds also makes a lot of easy mistakes like switching signs. In fact, I was just thinking about how if he were in PS, he'd be doing bad in math not necessarily because he doesn't understand the material but because he makes so many silly mistakes. I switched to Singapore 3 this year after RS C. I liked that it forced my ds to be a bit more independent. And it freed up my time. Somedays I had to teach a lesson but others (like now we are reviewing money), I can hand him the workbook and he does 4-5 pages independently. I like Singapore but don't love it. I think it moves fast and lacks review. I also plan to add in fact memorizing this summer.

[countrymum]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:27 PM, HomeAgain said:

Well, we made it through Right Start E, and while we left it for different reasons, I will say that the program in D and E had some strengths, like the geometry lessons and short long division, and some weaknesses, like that it didn't teach multiplication or fractions as well as other programs I have on my shelf.  Don't get me wrong - it certainly made sure facts were memorized, but I walked away feeling like the many manipulatives were actually a drawback in this area.

Since you are considering the move to Math Mammoth, which is less parent intensive than Singapore and Right Start, I would definitely print out a sample and go over it with your kid.  If you both liked it well enough, possibly do one of the $6-8 topical books to get more of a feel for it.  If not, stick with Right Start.

We got through most of E before switching here. I didn't think that it did a good job with multiplication or had enough division or long addition and subrtaction practice. I loved how it introduced decimals and taught the concept of fraction comparing. E is a lot less parent intensive than lower levels, but you really need to be faithful to add in more games than suggested- particularly those long addition/subtraction/multiplication ones that my own kids really didnt like.

I would try math mammoth and see how it goes. It was too cluttered appearing and not enough review without adding in the review books for us. For you that may be perfect; you could easily condense and speed up. I am trying horizons. It is not as obviously conceptual (more specifically it is not intuitive/discovery based), but it has plenty of practice, and the sprial that also has several lessons on a topic which I liked with RightStart. I also feel more comfortable teaching concepts now, so I add that in where necessary. The kids complain less about the practice when I am not seeming to "add on" to their lesson;)

[gck21]

On 4/3/2021 at 3:29 PM, Kiara.I said:

I'd stick with it, it's working. I think the careless mistakes are an age thing, actually. All mine have seemed to do it.

And I'd encourage you to consider staying with Rightstart. It gets less parent intensive in E and F, especially of you either skip some of the games when your child doesn't need them, or move then to a different day. 

Thank you! The age is definitely part of it. The silly mistakes are happening in every subject, not just math! I just worry about my math curriculum because it is the subject he likes the most and it is my weakest subject. Even though I have read enough that I am much more confident and enthusiastic about teaching math now (and I work ahead in his book), I dither over whether I'm choosing the best math materials every year. 🙂

[gck21]

On 4/3/2021 at 4:27 PM, HomeAgain said:

Well, we made it through Right Start E, and while we left it for different reasons, I will say that the program in D and E had some strengths, like the geometry lessons and short long division, and some weaknesses, like that it didn't teach multiplication or fractions as well as other programs I have on my shelf.  Don't get me wrong - it certainly made sure facts were memorized, but I walked away feeling like the many manipulatives were actually a drawback in this area.

Since you are considering the move to Math Mammoth, which is less parent intensive than Singapore and Right Start, I would definitely print out a sample and go over it with your kid.  If you both liked it well enough, possibly do one of the $6-8 topical books to get more of a feel for it.  If not, stick with Right Start.

Thank you, that was very helpful. Did you end up using multiple programs at once to cover those topics in different ways? He also finds some of the manipulatives frustrating in RS, but usually because he wants to do it a quicker way. 😉 

He was excited about the MM topic books and picked one out. I like to mix up math once a week, so that will work really well for us to try MM out.

[gck21]

On 4/3/2021 at 7:16 PM, MomN said:

I did RS through C. Then it just got too slow for us. I did like it through C though. My ds also makes a lot of easy mistakes like switching signs. In fact, I was just thinking about how if he were in PS, he'd be doing bad in math not necessarily because he doesn't understand the material but because he makes so many silly mistakes. I switched to Singapore 3 this year after RS C. I liked that it forced my ds to be a bit more independent. And it freed up my time. Somedays I had to teach a lesson but others (like now we are reviewing money), I can hand him the workbook and he does 4-5 pages independently. I like Singapore but don't love it. I think it moves fast and lacks review. I also plan to add in fact memorizing this summer.

Did you try D and that was too slow, or was C the level that was slow and you decided to switch?  How was the transition to Singapore 3? Were there any topics you felt were not covered in RS C? I was toying with the idea of doing Dimensions 2B over the summer if we decide to switch because Dimensions seemed heavier on multiplication and division.

[gck21]

On 4/4/2021 at 8:07 PM, countrymum said:

We got through most of E before switching here. I didn't think that it did a good job with multiplication or had enough division or long addition and subrtaction practice. I loved how it introduced decimals and taught the concept of fraction comparing. E is a lot less parent intensive than lower levels, but you really need to be faithful to add in more games than suggested- particularly those long addition/subtraction/multiplication ones that my own kids really didnt like.

I would try math mammoth and see how it goes. It was too cluttered appearing and not enough review without adding in the review books for us. For you that may be perfect; you could easily condense and speed up. I am trying horizons. It is not as obviously conceptual (more specifically it is not intuitive/discovery based), but it has plenty of practice, and the sprial that also has several lessons on a topic which I liked with RightStart. I also feel more comfortable teaching concepts now, so I add that in where necessary. The kids complain less about the practice when I am not seeming to "add on" to their lesson;)

That is really good to know. We also dislike the "games" that are just math practice with your mom. He liked Swim to 10 in the beginning level and he loves all the versions of Corners, but other than that, the games are not a big draw for us. I honestly think most of the time he'd rather have a worksheet for review than have to wait around for me to play a game with him.  I hope Horizons goes well for you!

[MomN]

1 hour ago, gck21 said:

Did you try D and that was too slow, or was C the level that was slow and you decided to switch?  How was the transition to Singapore 3? Were there any topics you felt were not covered in RS C? I was toying with the idea of doing Dimensions 2B over the summer if we decide to switch because Dimensions seemed heavier on multiplication and division.

I never tried D.  I just got a bit frustrated with all the geometry stuff in C, plus I had read a lot of posts about people switching from RS after C because they wanted their dc to have more independence in math. I did not feel there were any topics not covered in RS C, but there was a slight learning curve to adjust to Singapore 3A.  Singapore 2 had done more multiplication than RS C, so we went into long division (which shows up early in Singapore 3A) with very shaky multiplication skills.  This made long division hard.  Actually, we are still shaky on multiplication skills (I don't think Singapore 3A and B was sufficient in getting these memorized either but maybe every math curriculum needs to be supplemented with math facts).  That's what I will focus on this summer.

Overall, I have been happy with Singapore this year.  My ds did learn independence, which was the goal.  He learned long division and we should finish book 2 by the end of the year.  One thing I had to learn about Singapore was that the tests and extra practice located in the schedule are optional and if you do all of these, you will likely not finish in a year. I did not find the bar models to be a big deal.  I also never really got the "Singapore way" - it all just seemed like the same way I was taught.  There were many days where the textbook took me 5 minutes to teach and my ds would work independently the next 25.  Let me know if you have any more questions. 

[Kiara.I]

5 hours ago, gck21 said:

Thank you! The age is definitely part of it. The silly mistakes are happening in every subject, not just math! I just worry about my math curriculum because it is the subject he likes the most and it is my weakest subject. Even though I have read enough that I am much more confident and enthusiastic about teaching math now (and I work ahead in his book), I dither over whether I'm choosing the best math materials every year. 🙂

The beauty of Rightstart though, is that even if it's a weak subject for you, it's all scripted. We're one of the families that didn't switch away from Rightstart, my oldest is working on finishing up H at the moment. I've found it to be excellent, generally. It did need more practice on long division, but I'd rather supplement that tiny thing than switch to a different curriculum.

[HomeAgain]

11 hours ago, gck21 said:

Thank you, that was very helpful. Did you end up using multiple programs at once to cover those topics in different ways? He also finds some of the manipulatives frustrating in RS, but usually because he wants to do it a quicker way. 😉 

He was excited about the MM topic books and picked one out. I like to mix up math once a week, so that will work really well for us to try MM out.

I didn't.  DS had a really good background in mental math and I just added to the lesson and taught the concepts better based on what I knew.  We ended up leaving RS because it didn't seem efficient enough for DS, and yet we were burning through levels.  I had brought up one of the videos of Caleb Gattegno's work the year DS was working at the end of E, and he immediately gravitated to it.  Figured we'd try it, since the publishing company had made the books available for free so it was no loss, and if we didn't like it, no biggie.  There was RS F to tackle in the fall.  2 and a half years later, he's gone through 5 of the books (I ended up purchasing the set after doing book 1 online), and I've definitely spent less on math.  😄 But, he actually sees the usefulness of the rods over any of the other manipulatives in RS.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

I didn't.  DS had a really good background in mental math and I just added to the lesson and taught the concepts better based on what I knew.  We ended up leaving RS because it didn't seem efficient enough for DS, and yet we were burning through levels.  I had brought up one of the videos of Caleb Gattegno's work the year DS was working at the end of E, and he immediately gravitated to it.  Figured we'd try it, since the publishing company had made the books available for free so it was no loss, and if we didn't like it, no biggie.  There was RS F to tackle in the fall.  2 and a half years later, he's gone through 5 of the books (I ended up purchasing the set after doing book 1 online), and I've definitely spent less on math.  😄 But, he actually sees the usefulness of the rods over any of the other manipulatives in RS.

The rods aren't my thing, but I think the great thing about them is that they are consistently used and really build the model. Having too many manipulatives can just splinter the models and get confusing. 

Are you guys still doing Gattegno? I've been wondering how you're doing! 

[countrymum]

 

9 hours ago, Kiara.I said:

The beauty of Rightstart though, is that even if it's a weak subject for you, it's all scripted. We're one of the families that didn't switch away from Rightstart, my oldest is working on finishing up H at the moment. I've found it to be excellent, generally. It did need more practice on long division, but I'd rather supplement that tiny thing than switch to a different curriculum.

I agree with this, if your unsure how to teach math, the program is probably a lot more important, and RightStart is a good one. Also I think Kate snow has a math for elementary teachers class at the well trained mind that might be worth looking into. I found with my kids I had to supplement RS too much and it was driving me nuts, so was the script and focus on crazy amounts of geometry. (That my kids didn't like so it didn't even help them be interested in math which I think it is supposed to do.) 

No math program is perfect though, and I think one with sprial review is best. That is why I choose Horizons. It is possible to teach Horizons by rote though, so I wouldn't recommend it if you don't feel like you can actually teach math without a script. I am enjoying the freedom of teaching math myself with it and don't find the conceptual part at all lacking.

From what it sounds like math mammoth might be a good fit for you. They have sprial review books that I would have to add to the blue program and I would definatly cut extra problems out of the new and review material. Math really needs to be actually taught and modified for the individual child and teacher.

Another good program that holds your hand is Bob Jones. If some Christianity is fine with you, it woukd be another good choice. It teaches conceptually, has suggested review you can add in and some already there, and tells you just how to teach the material. It is a workbook also and much less visually cluttered than math mammoth. The teacher guide is really clear and well laid out. I almost picked it for us.

[HomeAgain]

21 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

The rods aren't my thing, but I think the great thing about them is that they are consistently used and really build the model. Having too many manipulatives can just splinter the models and get confusing. 

Are you guys still doing Gattegno? I've been wondering how you're doing! 

We are!  Well, sort of.  We got to the end of the book where it's building cubes and finding the difference of cubes, and I realized I had loaned out too many of my rods. 😄  I have 6 sets wandering around the county this year in introductory math boxes, helping people learn to use them, but only 1 set at home and we need 3 to build cubes.  So, we had to put Gattegno to the side for the rest of the semester until I get a few back. 
But we will continue through book 6, which is applying all the concepts learned, and then he's decided to move to a more standard algebra text rather than the combined algebra/geometry 7th book.  For right now, he's doing other random investigations I have on my shelf: slide rules, pentaminos, hands on geometry..

[eternallytired]

On 4/7/2021 at 7:27 PM, gck21 said:

That is really good to know. We also dislike the "games" that are just math practice with your mom. He liked Swim to 10 in the beginning level and he loves all the versions of Corners, but other than that, the games are not a big draw for us. I honestly think most of the time he'd rather have a worksheet for review than have to wait around for me to play a game with him.  I hope Horizons goes well for you!

This sounds a lot like our experience.  My older two went through RS-C before we bailed, but I only did A&B with my youngest.  The kids loved the games in A, liked them okay in B, and were totally sick of them by C.  The games didn't actually seem to help them memorize the facts, either. (I ultimately signed up for a round of Reflex Math, which gave them enough high-motivation, fast-paced practice to get the facts to stick within a few months.)  And while RS did a great job of presenting concepts, my kids could have used a bit faster pace--and I couldn't handle teaching more than one level of RS at a time.  I've ended up doing different things for all of them. 

ODS, who begged for "hard math," went on to BA3 (which sounds like a dud for you).  DD, who loves math but would prefer to do a worksheet and know exactly what's expected of her, has flourished on MM.  We tried Singapore PM for a year first, but there were too many books and it had too much review/practice for us.  MM actually says it provides more practice than is needed for most kids, and we skipped about half of the problems--which wasn't a big deal because the price is so reasonable.  MM may be a good way for you to go, since it has really good, step-by-step instruction right in the book.  (The way it presented things actually reminded me a lot of RS, but without all the manipulatives.)  Your ODS may be able to understand most of it just by reading on his own.  (My DD only calls me if there's something that needs clarifying.)  That said, I don't use MM with YDS because he can't handle the small font and general busy-ness of the page.  (He also finds Singapore to be painfully boring, so we're still trying to find his fit.)