How many hours a day?

[sea_mommy]

I’ve looked through the main board for this question but the information isn’t entirely helpful in my current situation.

Recently learned that DS13 has a low working memory and slow reading comprehension. The report basically said that he is capable of work at his grade level but that it will take him longer than most. 

Sooo, how many hours per day is normal for an 8th grader? Should I just expect to add an hour or two to that due to his challenges? I’m trying to find a balance between what is “normal” but also won’t wear him down completely.

Thank you so much!

[TAFKAPastry]

Oh gosh, this is near and dear to my heart. My eighth grader is a smart cookie but sloth like, literally, in her speed in everything. Slow processor, detail oriented, perfectionist. It’s a bad bad combo, especially with some executive function weaknesses (she is the absentminded professor for sure).

We do a fairly deep dive academically, but what takes her sister 5-6 hours takes her 8-10 if we aren’t constantly using timers to help limit how long it takes. If I give her targets to aim for (1 hour for a math lesson, 40/20 split for piano and guitar, 30 minutes for a note outline and 30 for the questions for history, etc) it just metastasizes.

Thats actually my biggest tip - for her, mapping out what needs to be done and approximate times it should take, then setting a timer for her to keep an eye on, helps very much. She might still need an extra fifteen minutes, but it gives her some accountability and helps her buckle down and focus when her mind wanders. It does NOT speed up her processing, but cutting out the extra distractions and management issues helps the processing speed be the main thing she works on, instead of that and five other distraction and executive function issues. Make sense?

Her average day, including music, is 7-8 hours right now. Some are longer, but with many subjects to cover I call this a victory for her.

Edited October 27, 2020 by TAFKAPastry

[alpacawalker]

We have a similar situation.  Using a timer really helps. We plan out the week on Sunday writing down what needs to be done making adjustments if needed. I write the schedule out daily on a whiteboard to give a "game plan" for the day. It really helps a lot and keeps her focused. Using this system, we have been able to keep her day to around 8 hours. Music practice is separate. She keeps a log for that. It is extra work for me now, but I believe it will allow her to develop the skills to do it herself in the future. 

[wendyroo]

My 6th grader is a bit of a slow processor, plus a heap of anxiety, ADHD, and executive function difficulties.  Like others have mentioned, we map out our week ahead of time, talk about how long different tasks "should" take, and use timers A LOT.

Another strategy we use is tying tasks to landmarks in our day.  So, literature, chore and setting out supplies for his next subject should happen before breakfast. Then, right after breakfast, clearing the table, and brushing teeth, he can immediately dive into his subject that is already laid out. His schedule (on Trello) then shows him what he should get done before morning snack. We don't use it as a hard and fast - "You can't eat snack until X, Y, and Z are done!" - but more to allow him to self-monitor his progress.

It is a bit hard to calculate exactly how long DS is working each day because it is interspersed with breaks and meals and chores. Also, many activities fall on the fuzzy line between school and recreation - in my head his online Spanish tutoring is "school", but in his head it is one of the best parts of his day.

But, generally, he works for about 30 minutes before breakfast, 2 hours between breakfast and snack, 1.5 hours between snack and lunch, about 1.5 hours after lunch, and about 30 minutes in the evening. So that is about 6 hours.  Plus he listens to me read aloud for about another hour during meals. Plus he free reads for about 2 hours. So, total, anywhere from 6 to 9 hours depending how you count. I don't know if/how that will change in the later middle school years.

[PeterPan]

The points about attention and organization to keep on track are really strong. I'll just add that for my dd the low processing speed meant she also *fatigued* with things using lots of processing. So once you get your written report, you might find it also says something about a *reduced course load*. For my dd, that has meant 14 hours a semester in college instead of the 18 you might expect. 

Also, we had this poster years ago who made a comment that stuck with me: THE REWARD FOR HARD WORK IS NOT MORE WORK. 

So it's tricky to find that balance where you're doing enough to keep them going forward (not enough to make you feel better, but enough that they're on a reasonable path for them) AND keep them happy, perked about life, able to do other things, able to pursue their interests. You don't want their school work to take up so much time that they don't have room for their education. They still need hobbies, pursues, athletics, whatever. For my dd it meant 1600 pins of costuming and ballet stuff on pinterest, haha. You don't want to squash that out.

So I'm not sure I'd do more. I'd think through the max amount of time you get each day where, when they work at that level, they're able to turn around and do it AGAIN the next day. Consider meds if they would benefit from ADHD meds. It will bump the processing speed and even out some things. Yes yes yes to checklists, check in points, and structure that works for them. But for my dd, if we pushed long one day, she just wouldn't even be able to work the next. Sometimes more is not more.

Another thing people will do is a *loop* schedule, where you work the list and pick up the next day where you left off. 

53 minutes ago, alpacawalker said:

She keeps a log for that.

We don't do it (hmm) but the 360 Thinking people suggest having them keep a log of their time. So they just check in every 30 minutes and write what they were doing. I know you meant music, but I'm just saying it's a strategy that can work more ways for the op too. 

Op asked how many hours. It has been a while since dd was in 8th grade. She was reading a LOT. She was probably in the 6-7 hour a day range for school work, but that included a lot of assigned reading. 

You mentioned he's a slow reader. Did they run a CTOPP on him to check his RAN/RAS? You might check that, just to see. RAN/RAS = rapid naming and it's something you can work on easily for free. Also you could get his eyes checked by a developmental optometrist. Again, they're not the cause of his overall low processing speed. But if you get another component that is a little weak bumped up STRONG, sometimes that just balances things out a bit better.

We've also had people get processing speed to bump from single digits to mid 30s (which can be very WOW) with Interactive Metronome. The metronome work targets the EF portion of the brain. Again, you can pay or there are ways to hack it for free. 

None of these are "fixes" but they might help *some*.

Congrats on getting the evals btw! My dd was 11/12 when we started getting evals, and they were epiphanal. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by PeterPan

[sea_mommy]

Thank you so much for all of the replies.  I'm sorry that it has taken me so long to reply.  We had some computer problems and, honestly, I think that I just needed some time to think everything through.  

On 10/27/2020 at 8:16 PM, PeterPan said:

Also, we had this poster years ago who made a comment that stuck with me: THE REWARD FOR HARD WORK IS NOT MORE WORK. 

This has stuck with me (almost brought me to tears) ever since I read it and is what I have been thinking about the most.  I fear that I have been rewarding his hard work with more work.  

On 10/27/2020 at 8:16 PM, PeterPan said:

I'll just add that for my dd the low processing speed meant she also *fatigued* with things using lots of processing. So once you get your written report, you might find it also says something about a *reduced course load*. For my dd, that has meant 14 hours a semester in college instead of the 18 you might expect.

YES!  The evaluation does mention this!  This knowledge has caused me to look at our schedule and evaluate a bit.  I realized that all of our core subjects (English, math, and science) are super heavy as we outsourced a lot of things starting last year.  We have decided to drop the outsourced math class and move to something that will still move him forward but maybe isn't quite as intense and exhausting.  

 

On 10/27/2020 at 7:33 PM, alpacawalker said:

We plan out the week on Sunday writing down what needs to be done making adjustments if needed. I write the schedule out daily on a whiteboard to give a "game plan" for the day. It really helps a lot and keeps her focused. Using this system, we have been able to keep her day to around 8 hours. 

 

On 10/27/2020 at 6:38 PM, TAFKAPastry said:

Thats actually my biggest tip - for her, mapping out what needs to be done and approximate times it should take, then setting a timer for her to keep an eye on, helps very much. 

Since several people mentioned this, we have been trying a weekly schedule.  He looks at the assignments that are due and then determines how long he'll give himself to do that task each day.  I'll admit that he's been a bit resistant.  I'm hoping that will change soon.  🙂

On 10/27/2020 at 8:16 PM, PeterPan said:

Congrats on getting the evals btw! My dd was 11/12 when we started getting evals, and they were epiphanal. 

I've been having some guilt about how long it took to get the evals (we live overseas and I couldn't find anyone that could help) so I really appreciate your encouragement.   

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, sea_mommy said:

Since several people mentioned this, we have been trying a weekly schedule.  He looks at the assignments that are due and then determines how long he'll give himself to do that task each day.  I'll admit that he's been a bit resistant.  I'm hoping that will change soon.  🙂

Sounds like you’re doing great! Remember too you can mentor this. Model, do it together, transition to independent. 
 

Well good, I’m glad you’re feeling more on track! You might like to read materials on EF (executive function) to keep giving yourself ideas. This is an age of growth. 

[kbutton]

If you scribe for him, does that speed things up or keep him on task more readily? It can be something that helps pace kids or can be something that flusters them if you try to pump too much out of them, but sometimes it's a really helpful way to pace things and take away some of the processing that the child needs to do, particularly if handwriting is an issue.

I would cut out any redundancies (or fluff) in his curriculum if he doesn't need it for retention or building foundational skills. If you google curriculum compacting, you might find ideas on this, though it's more a method for acceleration. If that's not applicable, not a big deal. 

Metronome work would probably help. Musical training also helps--several people here, including me, have had kids who seem to really benefit from music training. 

Best wishes! I am glad you've gotten some information! For some kids, processing really does get better. 

 

[sea_mommy]

15 minutes ago, kbutton said:

If you scribe for him, does that speed things up or keep him on task more readily? It can be something that helps pace kids or can be something that flusters them if you try to pump too much out of them, but sometimes it's a really helpful way to pace things and take away some of the processing that the child needs to do, particularly if handwriting is an issue.

He'd prefer to write/type himself.  

 

17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I would cut out any redundancies (or fluff) in his curriculum if he doesn't need it for retention or building foundational skills.  

I'm looking at what I had planned for this year--I had such grand plans.  I'm struggling a bit with trying to figure out what is necessary and what is just fluff.  

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, sea_mommy said:

I'm looking at what I had planned for this year--I had such grand plans.  I'm struggling a bit with trying to figure out what is necessary and what is just fluff.  

That can be difficult even when things are going well! I hope you can find some things to cut, but don't stress if you can't. I hope you find things that work well this year so that next year works more smoothly. 

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, sea_mommy said:

He'd prefer to write/type himself.  

 

I'm looking at what I had planned for this year--I had such grand plans.  I'm struggling a bit with trying to figure out what is necessary and what is just fluff.  

It makes sense he wants to do it himself. It minimizes working memory drain. Remember you can bump working memory to make things go better. We have some people on the board who got processing speed bumps with metronome work. These are both worth your time. Beyond that lots of tech and tools.

Yes refining your plan as you get into the year is normal. Maybe think about steps. There’s a saying that the person who can see the potential in your dc is the person to get them there. So having vision is GREAT! Just chunk it up and break into steps to get there.

[sea_mommy]

Right now the basics (English, science, math and a tiny bit of history) are taking up all of our day and not leaving any time for other interests.  Is it necessary that I add in other subjects?  

[kbutton]

35 minutes ago, sea_mommy said:

Right now the basics (English, science, math and a tiny bit of history) are taking up all of our day and not leaving any time for other interests.  Is it necessary that I add in other subjects?  

It depends on what your local rules are. In our state, we have to cover things like art, music, and PE, but sometimes you can weave that into the main areas (especially history), which is part of what I meant by not being redundant. I wasn't super clear, but finding ways to make subject areas overlap to do "less" can be helpful if it's not a lot of shuffling. 

Also, we don't have to cover a complete course in everything every year--once they are in high school, kids in brick and mortar school do only so many classes of PE and health, so covering it the same way at home is fine. State history is another area--we aren't expected to do that every year, just once. 

If the extras are motivating to your student, you might want to work them in, but it needn't be every day if it's easier to do in fits and starts. Also, some people tackle "specials" during the summer or school year-round with shorter days or more frequent days off. I think on six weeks, off a week is one way people handle this. 

[PeterPan]

On 11/18/2020 at 10:15 PM, sea_mommy said:

Right now the basics (English, science, math and a tiny bit of history) are taking up all of our day and not leaving any time for other interests.  Is it necessary that I add in other subjects?  

You might need to add by subtracting. Is there anything he’d enjoy that could be done in 5 minute chunks? Then you could delete 10 minutes of English to add 2X5 for enrichments each day.