Possible 9th & 10th Grade Logic Classes?

[lea1]

We are starting to homeschool again tomorrow (2 sons, 9th grade), after not homeschooling since half way through 6th grade.  I want to back up and at a minimum do some informal logic classes with my two sons.  If we did The Art of Argument in 9th grade and The Argument Builder in 10 grade are those classes of high enough level/content that it could count for those grades?

I am really scrambling here because I never planned to homeschool high school and we just decided this on Friday.  I'm not sure how to tell what constitutes a 9th grade level class.  Would these have to be counted as electives?

[Lori D.]

Welcome back to homeschooling. 😄

Yes, typically Logic is counted as an Elective -- especially if doing an informal Logic, rather than Formal Logic. (Formal Logic  is sometimes counted as a Social Studies Elective, as Formal Logic falls under Philosophy, and Philosophy is a Social Studies subject.)

The publisher lists the programs as:
- Art of Argument = grades 7-12, worth 0.5 credit for high school
- Argument Builder = grades 8-12, worth 0.5 credit for high school

I personally would not count Art of Argument towards a high school credit, even though the publisher lists that you may do so. Why I say that: Art of Argument only covers a narrow area of Logic (fallacies), and the program is most often used for middle school students. Also, I would not count Art of Argument as a high school credit as it is much more standard for schools and homeschool families to use a more thorough and rigorous text for a high school Logic credit.

I do not know enough about Argument Builder to comment on suitability for a high school credit.

What I personally *might* consider doing, if there were NO previous Logic studies, is to do both Art of Argument (1st semester) and then Argument Builder (2nd semester), and count it as 0.5 credit of Informal Logic. Or, if we were adding some additional higher level supplements to those 2 main resources, then I'd consider combining it all into 1.0 credit of Elective: Informal Logic.

Note: a credit does not have to all be earned in a single year -- 1.0 credit of material can be spread out over 2 or more years. So, if doing 1/4 of the work for 1.0 credit in each of the 4 years of high school, then 1.0 credit is earned by the end of high school. Or,  you can spread 1.0 credit of material over 4 semesters. Or... you get the idea. 😉 

As far as what makes something worth a credit... I am reprinting my post out of this past thread "Daily workload", to give you the background on # hours = 1 credit, in case it helps. 😄 

- a credit is earned by completing all or most of a standard high school textbook or program (examples: Math or Science)
- a credit is earned by completing and passing an outsourced high school class, or a dual-enrolled college course
- a credit is earned by completing the volume/rigor of materials and scope of topics you set up as a "DIY" credit, and has a similar level of volume/rigor of materials as other high school credits

For some non-textbook-based credits, it can be helpful to track hours:

. . . . . . . .     minimum .average . maximum
1.00 credit =  120 . . 150 . . .180  hours
0.75 credit =   90 . . .110 . . .135  hours
0.66 credit =   80 . . .100 . . 120  hours
0.50 credit =   60 . . . 75 . ..   90  hours
0.33 credit =   40 . . . 50 .  . . 60  hours
0.25 credit =   30 . . .. 35 .. .  45  hours

The 120 hour minimum comes from the Carnegie Credit and refers to the minimum teacher/classroom contact hours for 1 credit (it is usually understood that there will ALSO be additional work done *outside of class* (teacher contact hours) that counts towards the credit). 

The 180 hour maximum comes from public schools which typically are required to meet for 180 days per year -- so 1 hour/day x 5 days/week x 36 weeks/school year = 180 hours. However, most public school classes actually meet for 40-50 minutes per day, BUT, regular homework is assumed to fill up that shorter class time back up to 1 full hour of time. In general, if you shoot for the average, and you fill out 135 to 165 hours for most of your classes, then the credits on your transcript come out to be roughly equivalent.

If a student is completing a program in far less than 36 weeks of school (at the rate of 45-60 min./day 4-5 days/week) then the program is probably too light (student needs a more meaty/challenging program), or there is not enough volume of material to be worth 1 credit of material).

Of course, there are exceptions 😉 -- such as:
- English & Science = closer to 180 hours -- due to extra time needed for reading/writing (English) and for labs (Science)
- some required classes = may be "box checking" classes (Econ, Gov't, PE, Health), and hours may fall closer to the minimum 120 hours
- dual enrollment (DE) courses = more advanced material (higher volume & rigor), but in a shorter period of time -- no need to count hours for DE


To help you in your overall planning for high school credits -- to be "college prep" (in other words, to have the minimum credits of the amount and type needed to be eligible for admission to most typical universities (i.e. NOT top tier/competitive/selective schools), shoot for:

4 credits = English (usually 1/2 Literature + 1/2 Writing)
3-4 credits = Math (Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2, + many colleges want a 4th math with Alg. 2 as a pre-requisite)
3-4 credits = Science, with labs  (most colleges flexible; only a few require Biology & Chemistry)
3-4 credits = Social Studies** (most colleges = 1.0 credit Amer. Hist.; some also want 1.0 credit World Hist./Geog.; a few want 0.5 credit each Econ + Gov't)
2-4 credits = Foreign Language, same language  (Latin accepted everywhere; many colleges accept ASL)
1 credit = Fine Arts  (can be performance (Dance, Theater, Music, etc.) or creation (Art, Film, Photography,  Digital Arts, Studio Arts, etc.), or History/Appreciation of (Film, Drama, Art, etc.))
4-8+ credits = Electives  (examples: Computer; Logic; Religious Studies; PE; Health; Vocational-Tech courses; personal interest courses; add'l Fine Arts credits; "Academic Electives" (add'l credits in English, Math, Science, Social Studies, or For. Lang. beyond the required amount of those credits; etc.)
22-28+ credits = total  (averages out to about 5.5 to 7 credits per year of high school)

Very roughly, plan on 60 minutes per day per credit -- so if doing 6 credits, plan on roughly 6 hours of work per day.

** = Social Studies subjects usually accepted by colleges: History, Geography, Economics, Government, Political Science, Anthropology, Sociology, Archeology. Ethnic or Gender Studies, Religious Studies, Philosophy)


One last thought: in many areas, choosing to homeschool high school is an "all or nothing" decision, as many public/private high schools do not accept homeschool credits (or in many cases, transfer credits from another high school). Or the school will only grant credit if the student passes the end-of-year final exam for each course that you want to be transferred. The result is that if you decide to return to a high school school that has these policies, it forces the 10th, 11th, or even 12th grader to start over again as a 9th grader.  Just mentioning this so you can double check what your school system's policy is, in case there is a possibility of needing to return to the high school later on.

 

Wishing all of you all the BEST in your homeschool high school adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Lori D.

[ByGrace3]

My dd took Art of Argument at Schole Academy-- it is considered a full high school credit--though dd did this class in 8th. They do add some things-- including real life application and some paper writing. My dd did Discovery of Deduction in 9th grade and I counted it as a high school credit/elective. 

[lea1]

2 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Welcome back to homeschooling. 😄

Yes, typically Logic is counted as an Elective -- especially if doing an informal Logic, rather than Formal Logic. (Formal Logic  is sometimes counted as a Social Studies Elective, as Formal Logic falls under Philosophy, and Philosophy is a Social Studies subject.)

The publisher lists the programs as:
- Art of Argument = grades 7-12, worth 0.5 credit for high school
- Argument Builder = grades 8-12, worth 0.5 credit for high school

I personally would not count Art of Argument towards a high school credit, even though the publisher lists that you may do so. Why I say that: Art of Argument only covers a narrow area of Logic (fallacies), and the program is most often used for middle school students. Also, I would not count Art of Argument as a high school credit as it is much more standard for schools and homeschool families to use a more thorough and rigorous text for a high school Logic credit.

I do not know enough about Argument Builder to comment on suitability for a high school credit.

What I personally *might* consider doing, if there were NO previous Logic studies, is to do both Art of Argument (1st semester) and then Argument Builder (2nd semester), and count it as 0.5 credit of Informal Logic. Or, if we were adding some additional higher level supplements to those 2 main resources, then I'd consider combining it all into 1.0 credit of Elective: Informal Logic.

Note: a credit does not have to all be earned in a single year -- 1.0 credit of material can be spread out over 2 or more years. So, if doing 1/4 of the work for 1.0 credit in each of the 4 years of high school, then 1.0 credit is earned by the end of high school. Or,  you can spread 1.0 credit of material over 4 semesters. Or... you get the idea. 😉 

As far as what makes something worth a credit... I am reprinting my post out of this past thread "Daily workload", to give you the background on # hours = 1 credit, in case it helps. 😄 

- a credit is earned by completing all or most of a standard high school textbook or program (examples: Math or Science)
- a credit is earned by completing and passing an outsourced high school class, or a dual-enrolled college course
- a credit is earned by completing the volume/rigor of materials and scope of topics you set up as a "DIY" credit, and has a similar level of volume/rigor of materials as other high school credits

For some non-textbook-based credits, it can be helpful to track hours:

. . . . . . . .     minimum .average . maximum
1.00 credit =  120 . . 150 . . .180  hours
0.75 credit =   90 . . .110 . . .135  hours
0.66 credit =   80 . . .100 . . 120  hours
0.50 credit =   60 . . . 75 . ..   90  hours
0.33 credit =   40 . . . 50 .  . . 60  hours
0.25 credit =   30 . . .. 35 .. .  45  hours

The 120 hour minimum comes from the Carnegie Credit and refers to the minimum teacher/classroom contact hours for 1 credit (it is usually understood that there will ALSO be additional work done *outside of class* (teacher contact hours) that counts towards the credit). 

The 180 hour maximum comes from public schools which typically are required to meet for 180 days per year -- so 1 hour/day x 5 days/week x 36 weeks/school year = 180 hours. However, most public school classes actually meet for 40-50 minutes per day, BUT, regular homework is assumed to fill up that shorter class time back up to 1 full hour of time. In general, if you shoot for the average, and you fill out 135 to 165 hours for most of your classes, then the credits on your transcript come out to be roughly equivalent.

If a student is completing a program in far less than 36 weeks of school (at the rate of 45-60 min./day 4-5 days/week) then the program is probably too light (student needs a more meaty/challenging program), or there is not enough volume of material to be worth 1 credit of material).

Of course, there are exceptions 😉 -- such as:
- English & Science = closer to 180 hours -- due to extra time needed for reading/writing (English) and for labs (Science)
- some required classes = may be "box checking" classes (Econ, Gov't, PE, Health), and hours may fall closer to the minimum 120 hours
- dual enrollment (DE) courses = more advanced material (higher volume & rigor), but in a shorter period of time -- no need to count hours for DE


To help you in your overall planning for high school credits -- to be "college prep" (in other words, to have the minimum credits of the amount and type needed to be eligible for admission to most typical universities (i.e. NOT top tier/competitive/selective schools), shoot for:

4 credits = English (usually 1/2 Literature + 1/2 Writing)
3-4 credits = Math (Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2, + many colleges want a 4th math with Alg. 2 as a pre-requisite)
3-4 credits = Science, with labs  (most colleges flexible; only a few require Biology & Chemistry)
3-4 credits = Social Studies** (most colleges = 1.0 credit Amer. Hist.; some also want 1.0 credit World Hist./Geog.; a few want 0.5 credit each Econ + Gov't)
2-4 credits = Foreign Language, same language  (Latin accepted everywhere; many colleges accept ASL)
1 credit = Fine Arts  (can be performance (Dance, Theater, Music, etc.) or creation (Art, Film, Photography,  Digital Arts, Studio Arts, etc.), or History/Appreciation of (Film, Drama, Art, etc.))
4-8+ credits = Electives  (examples: Computer; Logic; Religious Studies; PE; Health; Vocational-Tech courses; personal interest courses; add'l Fine Arts credits; "Academic Electives" (add'l credits in English, Math, Science, Social Studies, or For. Lang. beyond the required amount of those credits; etc.)
22-28+ credits = total  (averages out to about 5.5 to 7 credits per year of high school)

Very roughly, plan on 60 minutes per day per credit -- so if doing 6 credits, plan on roughly 6 hours of work per day.

** = Social Studies subjects usually accepted by colleges: History, Geography, Economics, Government, Political Science, Anthropology, Sociology, Archeology. Ethnic or Gender Studies, Religious Studies, Philosophy)


One last thought: in many areas, choosing to homeschool high school is an "all or nothing" decision, as many public/private high schools do not accept homeschool credits (or in many cases, transfer credits from another high school). Or the school will only grant credit if the student passes the end-of-year final exam for each course that you want to be transferred. The result is that if you decide to return to a high school school that has these policies, it forces the 10th, 11th, or even 12th grader to start over again as a 9th grader.  Just mentioning this so you can double check what your school system's policy is, in case there is a possibility of needing to return to the high school later on.

 

Wishing all of you all the BEST in your homeschool high school adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this and explain it to me.  I greatly appreciate it.  It's very helpful.

[lea1]

37 minutes ago, ByGrace3 said:

My dd took Art of Argument at Schole Academy-- it is considered a full high school credit--though dd did this class in 8th. They do add some things-- including real life application and some paper writing. My dd did Discovery of Deduction in 9th grade and I counted it as a high school credit/elective. 

Thank you.  I will have to think about this and see if I might be able to add to it to make it more at the high school level.  Maybe I can find some ideas on line.  And thanks for the tip on Discovery of Deduction.  I appreciate your help.

[cintinative]

I had all our logic listed under English. Can anyone else share what category they listed this under? I am now confused. I understand possibly listing it as just an elective.

My oldest did Art of Argument and is now doing Traditional Logic by Memoria Press.

OP, The Argument Builder is more of a persuasive writing course as I understand it, similar to Lost Tools of Writing. 

I did give my son credit for Art of Argument in 8th grade. I did add some work to it but no papers. I hope that we will have some great applications this fall with the election season (I have been hoarding mailers to discuss). 

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

I had all our logic listed under English. Can anyone else share what category they listed this under? I am now confused. I understand possibly listing it as just an elective...
...OP, The Argument Builder is more of a persuasive writing course as I understand it, similar to Lost Tools of Writing. 
...I did give my son credit for Art of Argument in 8th grade. I did add some work to it but no papers. I hope that we will have some great applications this fall with the election season (I have been hoarding mailers to discuss). 

Not an expert, but I have never seen Logic listed under English before. I've seen it under Logic, Social Studies, or Elective. While English is not the usual subject heading that Logic is listed under, as long as the Logic is not taking the place of the 4 required traditional English credits, I guess English is another possible section for Logic credits...

At colleges, Logic is usually listed under Philosophy, as it is presented as a specific area of study of Philosophy. Because Philosophy falls under Social Studies at the high school level, I have seen a few people list Logic as a Social Studies credit, or Academic Elective credit ( which is an additional credit beyond the required credits in one of the "academic" subject of English, Math, Science, Social Studies, or Foreign Language). The only other place I've seen Logic listed is under Math or Computer, but that is for a specific math-based Logic course or computer-based Logic course, not Traditional Logic.

I listed our Logic credit under Electives. SWB in her explanation of how to list credits in WTM has Logic listed under "Other" (I would assume that "other" means "Electives").


Thanks for the info on Arugment Builder. 😄 I was unfamiliar with that program. Yes, since Argument Builder is more rhetoric-based, credits that are about argumentative / persuasive writing or public speaking/debate would go under English, probably as part of a Rhetoric credit or part of a Composition credit. 


Side note:
On your transcript, you may wish to place the credits you are "bringing up" from middle school in a special section of "High School Credits Earned Prior to 9th Grade." Some colleges only accept Math (Algebra 1 and above), Science (Biology and above), or Foreign Language (high school level and student continues with the next step of the sequence (I, II, III, IV, etc.) in high school) taken in high school. Additionally, some colleges only accept credits earned in the 4 years prior to entering college (i.e., don't accept high school credits earned before 9th grade). If you already have those "pre-high school" credits separated out, it can make it simple for colleges to see how your student's record matches up with what they accept.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Lori D.

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

Not an expert, but I have never seen Logic listed under English before. I've seen it under Logic, Social Studies, or Elective. While English is not the usual subject heading that Logic is listed under, as long as the Logic is not taking the place of the 4 required traditional English credits, I guess English is another possible section for Logic credits...

At colleges, Logic is usually listed under Philosophy, as it is presented as a specific area of study of Philosophy. Because Philosophy falls under Social Studies at the high school level, I have seen a few people list Logic as a Social Studies credit, or Academic Elective credit ( which is an additional credit beyond the required credits in one of the "academic" subject of English, Math, Science, Social Studies, or Foreign Language). The only other place I've seen Logic listed is under Math or Computer, but that is for a specific math-based Logic course or computer-based Logic course, not Traditional Logic.

I listed our Logic credit under Electives. SWB in her explanation of how to list credits in WTM has Logic listed under "Other" (I would assume that "other" means "Electives").


Thanks for the info on Arugment Builder. 😄 I was unfamiliar with that program. Yes, since Argument Builder is more rhetoric-based, credits that are about argumentative / persuasive writing or public speaking/debate would go under English, probably as part of a Rhetoric credit or part of a Composition credit. 


Side note:
On your transcript, you may wish to place the credits you are "bringing up" from middle school in a special section of "High School Credits Earned Prior to 9th Grade." Some colleges only accept Math (Algebra 1 and above), Science (Biology and above), or Foreign Language (high school level and student continues with the next step of the sequence (I, II, III, IV, etc.) in high school) taken in high school. Additionally, some colleges only accept credits earned in the 4 years prior to entering college (i.e., don't accept high school credits earned before 9th grade). If you already have those "pre-high school" credits separated out, it can make it simple for colleges to see how your student's record matches up with what they accept.

Thank you for this. I have no idea why I thought it was English.  I can sort of see that with Traditional Logic because it is about the proper form of language, but I can also see what you are saying.

Presently my transcript has the years across the top so they should be able to see that the credits were earned in junior high.  If I change the format later, I will need to make the note you are saying I think.  

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

Thank you for this. I have no idea why I thought it was English.  I can sort of see that with Traditional Logic because it is about the proper form of language, but I can also see what you are saying.

Presently my transcript has the years across the top so they should be able to see that the credits were earned in junior high.  If I change the format later, I will need to make the note you are saying I think.  

Yes, I do see your language connection. 😄 I even talk a bit about that  In my high school co-op classes of Lit. & Writing -- about having to build a logical argument of support for the thesis statement. And we do spend one class going over common fallacies.  But at heart, I see Logic being overall more connected to Philosophy and the development of thinking/ideas, rather than in the expression of Language in all its many forms (the reading of literature (expression of language), and writing in its many forms). But that's just me. 😉 

Really, as long as Logic is not being counted as one of the 4 required English credits (traditional based on Lit. & Writing), and you feel that Logic best fits under the category of English, go for it. 😉