Compare MCT and WWE/GWTM

[TeachMomTeach]

Can anyone compare MCT and the English/Language Arts curriculum put out by SWB (writing with ease, grammar for the well trained mind-or first language lessons)?  I was aiming for an all in one approach for this fall, but am feeling like that is no longer a fit.  I'm stuck on Language Arts now...

[EKS]

I have a bit of experience with this. 

First, I should mention that I hate all writing programs, so this is only about grammar, and I have not used FLL because it give me hives to even look at it.

My younger son used K12 (grade 2) grammar in K and and Growing with Grammar 3 in 1st.  It was all about pattern matching and he was great at it.  And he didn't learn a thing.

In 2nd, we switched to MCT Island, and the difference was amazing.  He loved Grammar and Sentence Island, and the combination of the story with a big picture approach to grammar was perfect for a kid who prefers concepts to details.  We used the Town materials the next year, after which I realized that he needed some additional input on mechanics (capitalization and punctuation).  So we did Hake 5 in 4th grade and that solved the mechanics problems.

Both my son and I loved MCT so much that I remember having a dream a few months after we started where I met MCT as he was driving a trolley of all things.  I thanked him profusely for producing such a wonderful resource, and I am grateful to this day.  Usually if you detect any enthusiasm at all in grammar materials, it is more about conquering language--language is something to be mastered. The MCT materials exude a passion for language that I've never seen anywhere else ever.  Language isn't something to be conquered--it is something to revel in.  

The thing about MCT is that I suspect that you need to hit it at a certain time in a kid's life.  Island and Town are truly inspired, but they won't be if the kid is too old for them.  So don't wait!

[EKS]

11 hours ago, square_25 said:

Hah, I think you might be the poster whose love for MCT inspired me to purchase it for next year, lol. (I haven't yet, but I've been planning to.) 

Could be.  It isn't perfect (for example, there's no diagramming--but I just added that in myself), and only Island and Town have the quality I talked about in the post above, but it was just what my son needed at the time.

 

[daijobu]

I also love the 4 level sentence analysis.  The practice books were terrific.  We did 2 sentences each morning.  

[Little Green Leaves]

I'm trying to decide on what to use next year, so I'm really interested in this too. I've never used either but I've been looking at the online samples.

Would it be accurate to say that MCT is mostly about the use of language, while the WWE series has more about how to structure compositions (narration etc)?

I'm looking at the 4th grade level for both. 

[TeachMomTeach]

22 hours ago, EKS said:

I have a bit of experience with this. 

First, I should mention that I hate all writing programs, so this is only about grammar, and I have not used FLL because it give me hives to even look at it.

My younger son used K12 (grade 2) grammar in K and and Growing with Grammar 3 in 1st.  It was all about pattern matching and he was great at it.  And he didn't learn a thing.

In 2nd, we switched to MCT Island, and the difference was amazing.  He loved Grammar and Sentence Island, and the combination of the story with a big picture approach to grammar was perfect for a kid who prefers concepts to details.  We used the Town materials the next year, after which I realized that he needed some additional input on mechanics (capitalization and punctuation).  So we did Hake 5 in 4th grade and that solved the mechanics problems.

Both my son and I loved MCT so much that I remember having a dream a few months after we started where I met MCT as he was driving a trolley of all things.  I thanked him profusely for producing such a wonderful resource, and I am grateful to this day.  Usually if you detect any enthusiasm at all in grammar materials, it is more about conquering language--language is something to be mastered. The MCT materials exude a passion for language that I've never seen anywhere else ever.  Language isn't something to be conquered--it is something to revel in.  

The thing about MCT is that I suspect that you need to hit it at a certain time in a kid's life.  Island and Town are truly inspired, but they won't be if the kid is too old for them.  So don't wait!

Thank you for posting this!  FLL and WWE both seem so daunting but thorough, however if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter how thorough it is.  I'm SO glad to hear that MCT is lovely!  I think I'm headed in this direction for next year!

[Little Green Leaves]

There seem to be so many people who love MCT! I've read a lot of glowing reviews of the program. 

Thing is, I still don't really understand what sets it apart. Even after going on the website and reading the excerpts from the books, I'm confused about the program. Does it cover the same material as other grammar programs only in a more appealing way? Does the Town level include composition, or only grammar? 

Is this mostly a program for people who otherwise hate grammar? That seems to be a common feature in the reviews I've read -- people say their kids hated grammar until they discovered MCT. My kids so far kind of like grammar, or at least the bits and pieces I've taught them. 

I guess I'd love more specifics about MCT, if anyone has the time and the inclination : ) 

[Porridge]

I tried both and found MCT difficult to implement. There were so many different books. It looked like an amazing program and I wanted to love it, but I couldn’t figure out how to integrate it into our homeschool. The FLL/ WWE method was more straightforward, and highly effective for my kids. That being said, my 5th grader is now using Growing with Grammar because it was important for him to have pieces of school to do on his own, things that did not require mom.  If you can figure out how to implement MCT, I say go for it! But know that there is an excellent open-and-go option that is also much less expensive available as well.

[daijobu]

3 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

There seem to be so many people who love MCT! I've read a lot of glowing reviews of the program. 

Thing is, I still don't really understand what sets it apart. Even after going on the website and reading the excerpts from the books, I'm confused about the program. Does it cover the same material as other grammar programs only in a more appealing way? Does the Town level include composition, or only grammar? 

Is this mostly a program for people who otherwise hate grammar? That seems to be a common feature in the reviews I've read -- people say their kids hated grammar until they discovered MCT. My kids so far kind of like grammar, or at least the bits and pieces I've taught them. 

I guess I'd love more specifics about MCT, if anyone has the time and the inclination : ) 

 

I liked how he simplifies sentences into some basic tenets.  Things like "A subject is a subject and an object is an object."  Certain rules that require memorization are presented over and over graphically like "I;I" to represent that a semicolon separates 2 independent clauses.  It really sticks with my kids to the extent that my older dd corrected a writing teacher.  (She didn't stick with the class after that first meeting.) 

The Caesar's English series for vocabulary is not to be missed.  Do not miss it.  It's lovely.  MCT will introduce a word and then write something like "Jane Austen used the word ponderous in Emma in this passage:  " And then he will quote several sentences at length.  It's pretty hilarious, like it was just an excuse to reprint a favorite Jane Austen selection.  

I wish we had used the poetics books because I see now that  poetry is so helpful in writing beautiful prose, but I didn't see that at the time and I dropped it for time.  

When we got to the essay writing part, I switched to a writing teacher because it was inadequate for my needs and my weakest subject.  

[Little Green Leaves]

41 minutes ago, daijobu said:

 

I liked how he simplifies sentences into some basic tenets.  Things like "A subject is a subject and an object is an object."  Certain rules that require memorization are presented over and over graphically like "I;I" to represent that a semicolon separates 2 independent clauses.  It really sticks with my kids to the extent that my older dd corrected a writing teacher.  (She didn't stick with the class after that first meeting.) 

The Caesar's English series for vocabulary is not to be missed.  Do not miss it.  It's lovely.  MCT will introduce a word and then write something like "Jane Austen used the word ponderous in Emma in this passage:  " And then he will quote several sentences at length.  It's pretty hilarious, like it was just an excuse to reprint a favorite Jane Austen selection.  

I wish we had used the poetics books because I see now that  poetry is so helpful in writing beautiful prose, but I didn't see that at the time and I dropped it for time.  

When we got to the essay writing part, I switched to a writing teacher because it was inadequate for my needs and my weakest subject.  

Okay, thanks. So I'm getting the impression that MCT is a really well-written, engaging, delight-driven approach to language. It's not so much that it offers different material from other grammar books, but rather that it appeals to the students' sense of beauty and fun.

 

[EKS]

5 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

Thing is, I still don't really understand what sets it apart. Even after going on the website and reading the excerpts from the books, I'm confused about the program. Does it cover the same material as other grammar programs only in a more appealing way? Does the Town level include composition, or only grammar? 

Is this mostly a program for people who otherwise hate grammar?

What sets it apart:  It uses a big picture approach, and the author's enthusiasm for language shines through.  Most other programs are parts to whole and have no spark.  Also the Island and Town levels incorporate a story and talking animals which appeals to the little kid in the gifted youngsters who are the author's target audience (at least it did mine).  

Composition:  All levels have a composition piece.  There is also a vocabulary piece and a poetics piece.  Paragraph Town is the composition book for for the Town level.  I didn't care for the assignments, but then I'm not a fan of any writing program though I do appreciate MCT's approach to writing instruction--just not how it's implemented in the details.

Program for grammar haters?:  I would argue that is a program for people who are, or have the potential to be, passionate about language.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by EKS

[Little Green Leaves]

7 minutes ago, EKS said:

What sets it apart:  It uses a big picture approach, and the author's enthusiasm for language shines through.  Most other programs are parts to whole and have no spark.  Also the Island and Town levels incorporate a story and talking animals which appeals to the little kid in the gifted youngsters who are the author's target audience (at least it did mine).  

Composition:  All levels have a composition piece.  There is also a vocabulary piece and a poetics piece.  Paragraph Town is the composition book for for the Town level.  I didn't care for the assignments, but then I'm not a fan of any writing program though I do appreciate MCT's approach to writing instruction--just not how it's implemented in the details.

Program for grammar haters?:  I would argue that is a program for people who are, or have the potential to be, passionate about language.

 

Thanks a lot, that's helpful. 

I've been reading a lot of MCT reviews, and most of them are by people who seem shocked to discover that grammar can be fun. I really can't relate to that -- I love studying language, and I have fun teaching my kids bits and pieces of grammar. That's why I asked whether MCT was a program to convert grammar-haters : ) 

 

 

 

[EKS]

20 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

love studying language, and I have fun teaching my kids bits and pieces of grammar.

Me too.

I should point out that there are some things that are missing (or not focused on enough) in MCT (at least in the first three levels).  What modifies what is one of them.  I just added that in myself.  Diagramming is another--again, I added that in.  Mechanics is another (capitalization and punctuation other than clause punctuation).  We did a year of Hake to make up for that, and actually Hake also reinforced the diagramming piece as well.

[Little Green Leaves]

14 minutes ago, EKS said:

Me too.

I should point out that there are some things that are missing (or not focused on enough) in MCT (at least in the first three levels).  What modifies what is one of them.  I just added that in myself.  Diagramming is another--again, I added that in.  Mechanics is another (capitalization and punctuation other than clause punctuation).  We did a year of Hake to make up for that, and actually Hake also reinforced the diagramming piece as well.

That's good to know. I see a lot of people referring to Hake and I'm going to research that next.

I think what everyone is saying about MCT sounds lovely, but I also think it sounds a lot like the way I already talk about language with the kids. So I'm thinking that what I actually need is a grammar book that's just really straightforward and can make sure that I don't miss anything. And I'll just do my best to make it fun as I go 🙂

 

[EKS]

52 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

That's good to know. I see a lot of people referring to Hake and I'm going to research that next.

I think what everyone is saying about MCT sounds lovely, but I also think it sounds a lot like the way I already talk about language with the kids. So I'm thinking that what I actually need is a grammar book that's just really straightforward and can make sure that I don't miss anything. And I'll just do my best to make it fun as I go 🙂

 

FWIW, Hake isn't fun.  But you can make it more tolerable by doing whatever you can orally and using the text as a workbook for everything else.

One thing Hake will do is ensure that you don't miss anything.  I definitely appreciated that about it.

[Little Green Leaves]

17 minutes ago, EKS said:

FWIW, Hake isn't fun.  But you can make it more tolerable by doing whatever you can orally and using the text as a workbook for everything else.

One thing Hake will do is ensure that you don't miss anything.  I definitely appreciated that about it.

Yes, Hake looks very thorough. I agree it doesn't look like a barrel of laughs, but it looks satisfying and reliable. We can always use it as a jumping-off point or a reference. Cool, I feel like I'm making progress here!

[Little Green Leaves]

35 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I get that. Sometimes, I feel like that's what I need in a math book -- just a list of topics not to mess up. 

On the other hand, when we got BA, we didn't wind up using it as a curriculum, but it did give me some ideas for fun puzzles. (On the other hand, those came in much handier for my classes than for my kids... still, it was something, lol.) 

That's exactly what I meant, yes. A starting point.

In your analogy BA is MCT? I can see how it'd be helpful to see someone else's way of being fun and creative with language, yes. But don't get me started thinking that way. I am very happy to have made a decision here!