Handwriting help for older kids

[Ausmumof3]

DH was looking at oldest ds12s birthday list on the fridge and commented about the bad handwriting.

It is pretty messy and dh has always had a thing about handwriting.  We’ve been doing IEW and Andrew Pudewa recommended not worrying about handwriting etc just getting stuff down on paper which is huge for this kid.  However I do see DHs point about it being a problem with job applications and people’s judgment etc.  (ironically from the dude who wrote everything in capital letters all the time when we met).

This is not from lack of trying we’ve done so the handwriting without tears workbooks through the years and added copywork etc, but I still see times when it seems like kid is having to think through letter formatting etc.

Can anyone recommend any tips, curriculum, resources for dealing with handwriting in older kids?  I am a messy with naturally messy handwriting myself which has actually improved through teaching my own kids so it may be that we just need to go through a program again to get it right.

secondly my youngest in grade 2 is starting to have similar issues and I want to get on top of it before that point.  Any tips on a rapid boost technique to get good handwriting results.  Dd thankfully has developed quite a pretty script even if she can’t spell.

edited to add this is not a fine motor issue I don’t think.  Ds is pretty talented at making clay or fondant models, artwork, flytying.  There’s a whole range of stuff that he does with fine motor pretty effectively.  It’s just putting pen to paper on a page.  

Edited July 14, 2019 by Ausmumof3

[HomeAgain]

One of the first things I start older kids out with is a spirograph.  It's fun, but more than that they're developing a smoother circle.  From there I've gone on to introducing an entirely different kind of script than they've used before, with a fancy pen (no pencils), so that as they learn to form the letters in a new way they're not just tweaking old bad habits but learning to draw them.  Spencerian works for the kid willing to work with it, and the books are cheap but different enough.  Calligraphy with a fine marker for those who aren't, since each letter has a shape.  I stay away from stick-ball writing because it's often taught wrong to begin with (if explicitly taught) and doesn't let them focus).  For the inbetweeners I picked up a form drawing book (Waldorf) because it's a nice, colorful way to work on strokes if they really liked the spirograph but need more in their toolbox.

Whatever you use, I'd spend five minutes a day having him make it deliberate and as neat as possible.  After you get a while into doing that, reinforce it with requiring neat handwriting for final drafts, copywork, and any fill-in-the-blank sort of worksheet.

[birchbark]

I successfully remediated my oldest's handwriting with Smithhand.

[PeterPan]

On July 14, 2019 at 5:14 PM, Ausmumof3 said:

ironically from the dude who wrote everything in capital letters all the time when we met).

Ok, so the parent's insecurities are not a reason to do the wrong thing by a kid. You still have to work with the kid in integrity. My dh used to do that about spelling and reading, saying if he had gone to a better school, he might have been better at academics, blah blah. Well reality is he (my dh) is dyslexic and that little cs wasn't prepared to handle that.

So what I'm impressed about is your ds can get his thoughts out on paper at all. My dd has been told recently she should have been diagnosed with SLD Writing. She struggles to get her thoughts out, even with tech. Smart, top scores on the ACT, just very hard. Her writing is like chicken scratch and she struggled to learn to type. I've made posts on the lengths we went to with that, including changing to an unusual keyboard layout (Dvorak), which she still uses. My ds writes almost nothing by hand. He can write a few words. He has had OT for years. He just has a significant disability. I liken it to the difference between hard and CAN'T. 

So you cannot say it's a matter of instruction, and the evidence (research, studies on this) do not bear out that you're going to make major changes in writing. Now if he WANTS to, he MIGHT make some change. But just to say well I'm gonna do handwriting, I'm going to do this or that. No, the evidence is that you shouldn't bother, that it's prolonged torture, that it's wasting his time.

You should make sure he can type. If at all possible, get him typing.

You should make sure he has a signature he is satisfied with. That was the closing out point for my dd, being able to write her name. We worked on that, got something she could write satisfactorily, and stopped.

You should make sure he can form numbers legibly if he wishes to. Even many people with SLD Writing can write their math. Not all, but some. So we were advised that numbers would be the more useful thing to work on.

You should make sure he is comfortable enough mechanically that he can do life skill amounts of writing. This means you take him to an OT and you ask if there is any physical reason the writing is uncomfortable. My dd did OT at age 12 for writing, and she had some issues with core, how she rested her arm, etc. They were able to help that. They couldn't solve everything, but there was a little.

You should make sure his vision is not part of the problem. Some kids get astonishing handwriting improvement with vision therapy. If his eyes are not converging properly, it will affect handwriting.

Beyond that, tell people to jump in a lake. Make evidence-based decisions and do not torture kids over things that don't matter because someone wishes he were different.

Adding: My ds also has terrible visual-motor integration even after years of OT, haha. Sometimes you just don't win. You have to look at the dc on an individual level. It's ok to try something. It would be wise to talk with an OT and get that Visual Motor Integration testing to see where it's at. It could make a difference working on it. But you'd want some data on developmental vision, his visual motor, retained reflexes, etc. At least I would. But that's because writing is SO HARD for my ds that I felt like it wasn't right to do forced sessions without data to know what's really going on.

With my dd it was just hard. We came to a point where we realized she was trying, had tried, and it was just hard. It's ok to just say oh well and move on. Kids now type/text everything. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

On July 14, 2019 at 5:14 PM, Ausmumof3 said:

edited to add this is not a fine motor issue I don’t think.  Ds is pretty talented at making clay or fondant models, artwork, flytying.  There’s a whole range of stuff that he does with fine motor pretty effectively.  It’s just putting pen to paper on a page.  

That's why it screams out that it's probably an SLD. Or maybe not, maybe he's just lazy. But it could just as easily be.

There are OTs that specialize in handwriting, if you call around. They'll have a lot of fun ways to work on handwriting. We used one with my ds and she had him doing spy codes and all kinds of fun stuff. She also did gross motor, developmental things, precursor skills. That was this past school year (ages 9 and 10), not little. 

So an OT intake eval is usually under $100 around here. They do an hour and meet with you. And you could do just a dab of OT and see what happens. Not oppositional, all pleasant, just having that discussion. 

How is his typing? How is his composition organization going? How is he with getting his thoughts onto screen/paper? Does his handwriting change when he's writing from dictation vs. when he's composing? Does it change with the length of the sample?

Edited July 21, 2019 by PeterPan

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, so the parent's insecurities are not a reason to do the wrong thing by a kid. You still have to work with the kid in integrity. My dh used to do that about spelling and reading, saying if he had gone to a better school, he might have been better at academics, blah blah. Well reality is he (my dh) is dyslexic and that little cs wasn't prepared to handle that.

So what I'm impressed about is your ds can get his thoughts out on paper at all. My dd has been told recently she should have been diagnosed with SLD Writing. She struggles to get her thoughts out, even with tech. Smart, top scores on the ACT, just very hard. Her writing is like chicken scratch and she struggled to learn to type. I've made posts on the lengths we went to with that, including changing to an unusual keyboard layout (Dvorak), which she still uses. My ds writes almost nothing by hand. He can write a few words. He has had OT for years. He just has a significant disability. I liken it to the difference between hard and CAN'T. 

So you cannot say it's a matter of instruction, and the evidence (research, studies on this) do not bear out that you're going to make major changes in writing. Now if he WANTS to, he MIGHT make some change. But just to say well I'm gonna do handwriting, I'm going to do this or that. No, the evidence is that you shouldn't bother, that it's prolonged torture, that it's wasting his time.

You should make sure he can type. If at all possible, get him typing.

You should make sure he has a signature he is satisfied with. That was the closing out point for my dd, being able to write her name. We worked on that, got something she could write satisfactorily, and stopped.

You should make sure he can form numbers legibly if he wishes to. Even many people with SLD Writing can write their math. Not all, but some. So we were advised that numbers would be the more useful thing to work on.

You should make sure he is comfortable enough mechanically that he can do life skill amounts of writing. This means you take him to an OT and you ask if there is any physical reason the writing is uncomfortable. My dd did OT at age 12 for writing, and she had some issues with core, how she rested her arm, etc. They were able to help that. They couldn't solve everything, but there was a little.

You should make sure his vision is not part of the problem. Some kids get astonishing handwriting improvement with vision therapy. If his eyes are not converging properly, it will affect handwriting.

Beyond that, tell people to jump in a lake. Make evidence-based decisions and do not torture kids over things that don't matter because someone wishes he were different.

It is definitely not that level of bad.  It’s totally legible.  It’s just the letter sizing is sometimes uneven and slopes and slants aren’t consistent.  It has got messier as the workload increases.  I think it looks childish.

I think with dh it’s coming from a place of love.  He’s been handling apprentice job applications and I think he’s probably freaking out a bit because he realises the level of competition out there is higher than it used to be.  I’m trying to be respectful because I have to be honest I have a history of overriding his opinions etc over educations stuff and I’m trying to actually listen.  Plus I feel like he’s on the “real world” more than I am and maybe more in touch with what expectations are.

vision is ok we have that checked every couple of years.  All the kids are very slightly far sighted I think but not enough to justify doing anything about.

He is incredibly neat with lots of things he makes.  I don’t know why it is with pen to paper.  I have read that boys develop a more mature script later than girls so I hope that’s part of it.

[PeterPan]

It would be interesting to do an OT eval with someone who specializes in handwriting and see what they say. And I'd probably correct the vision too, just me. Has he been to a developmental optometrist to be screened? The unevenness would make me think vision, leaning on his arm (weak core), or something going on.

What if he goes to all caps like your dh on things that are important? It could actually be a strategy you try. Our OT had ds doing life skills writing this year. They'll make a list of things that they want him to be able to do and get him able to do those. So that could be a thing to try, doing all caps for job applications. You could probably print them from online and do just a page each day in all caps. If he can do that legibly, it satisfies your dh's requirement.

Edited July 21, 2019 by PeterPan

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's why it screams out that it's probably an SLD. Or maybe not, maybe he's just lazy. But it could just as easily be.

There are OTs that specialize in handwriting, if you call around. They'll have a lot of fun ways to work on handwriting. We used one with my ds and she had him doing spy codes and all kinds of fun stuff. She also did gross motor, developmental things, precursor skills. That was this past school year (ages 9 and 10), not little. 

So an OT intake eval is usually under $100 around here. They do an hour and meet with you. And you could do just a dab of OT and see what happens. Not oppositional, all pleasant, just having that discussion. 

How is his typing? How is his composition organization going? How is he with getting his thoughts onto screen/paper? 

I think this kids probably is on the edge of that without being there.  He took longer than my others to get concepts like blending and yet he’s a pretty voracious reader now.  His spelling is pretty accurate without much effort.  I think in part I probably didn’t correct enough during early years because he’s resistant to writing so just getting done was enough.

we did start a typing program then it reset somehow and it’s kind of dropped off the radar a bit.  

[PeterPan]

If the language tasks are difficult (encoding, organizing thoughts, etc.), then I would expect the handwriting to go down. They'll talk about cognitive load and that he's working so hard to do some of the components that there's not enough let to do another. 

[PeterPan]

On July 14, 2019 at 5:24 PM, HomeAgain said:

a spirograph.

I have one of these lying around and need to bust it out!

I also got a bunch of snazzy workbooks from RFWP to work on visual motor after ds' recent low scores. We've just been totally on break, not doing ANYTHING for disabilities right now, lol. It's actually hard to shift back.

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

If the language tasks are difficult (encoding, organizing thoughts, etc.), then I would expect the handwriting to go down. They'll talk about cognitive load and that he's working so hard to do some of the components that there's not enough let to do another. 

Definitely.

we did a lot of composition where he would dictate, I would written then he would copy to try to address that.  I do think there’s some struggles with organising and layout both in language and math but IEW has been excellent for this kid.  Of course Mr Pudewa said at the beginning of the year not to worry about spelling or neatness just get something down on the page so that might not be helping 😆

That is one of the borderline ld things that even up till almost 10 he’d occasionally invert letters and numbers when he was thinking too hard about other stuff 

[PeterPan]

It wouldn't be such a bad thing to get an SLD diagnosed. Like sometimes it's refreshing and a relief to the kid and clears the air.

[Ausmumof3]

40 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

It wouldn't be such a bad thing to get an SLD diagnosed. Like sometimes it's refreshing and a relief to the kid and clears the air.

Yeah but like a $1000 process.  Just not in the budget for something we can work around I don’t think. 

[Ausmumof3]

On 7/15/2019 at 6:54 AM, HomeAgain said:

One of the first things I start older kids out with is a spirograph.  It's fun, but more than that they're developing a smoother circle.  From there I've gone on to introducing an entirely different kind of script than they've used before, with a fancy pen (no pencils), so that as they learn to form the letters in a new way they're not just tweaking old bad habits but learning to draw them.  Spencerian works for the kid willing to work with it, and the books are cheap but different enough.  Calligraphy with a fine marker for those who aren't, since each letter has a shape.  I stay away from stick-ball writing because it's often taught wrong to begin with (if explicitly taught) and doesn't let them focus).  For the inbetweeners I picked up a form drawing book (Waldorf) because it's a nice, colorful way to work on strokes if they really liked the spirograph but need more in their toolbox.

Whatever you use, I'd spend five minutes a day having him make it deliberate and as neat as possible.  After you get a while into doing that, reinforce it with requiring neat handwriting for final drafts, copywork, and any fill-in-the-blank sort of worksheet.

Thanks.

ive just bought a set of Spencerian calligraphy stuff and pens so hopefully that will help.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yeah but like a $1000 process.  Just not in the budget for something we can work around I don’t think. 

It's 2-3X that here at least. 

Yeah, it would be worth it if he's asking questions, running into walls, needs documentation for accommodations, wants answers. But you're right that in general you're just going to work around it. But at least know that he's awfully close to what would get him an SLD diagnosis. It means you could agree to mutually move on to "make reality work" mode at some point. At your ds is right about the age mine was when that became radically apparent.

Ok, so another thing that can help, and this is sort of off the wall. Metronome work helped my dd SIGNIFICANTLY, and heathermomster has shared instructions over on LC to work on it for free. We did it right about the age of your ds (12, 7th gr) and we spent maybe 2-3 months, I forget honestly. It wasn't an eternity and it wasn't a week. Metronome work taps into and activates the EF (executive function) portion of the brain, so anyone with issues with organizing their thoughts will benefit. It's not a cure for word retrieval or language disabilities. 

My thought process was that writing requires you to:

-use language

-hold your thoughts

-motor plan

So I would talk to her while we would do the metronome work (language), bring in digit spans and distractions (improving her ability to hold her thoughts), while doing the motions with the metronome (motor planning).

It was that simple and it actually improved her ability to hold her thoughts, use her language, and type and get something out. And it cost $0.

There are also some things you can do with handwriting exercises to do that, like handwriting strokes with metronome or music (Callirobics), etc., but we found them too hard frankly. We've had other people on the board here able to do them, but my dd couldn't. But the metronome work, by building slowly (first the movements, then with distractions, then adding in digit spans, finally adding conversations), she could do.

[HomeAgain]

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I have one of these lying around and need to bust it out!

 

Mine is seriously one of my most engaging tools.  Even the big kids can't resist it, especially when presented with a multi-color pen to use.  I also have the "adult" version of an aquadoodle, a Buddha Board, for those who need to work on their death grip & force.  Tweens are drawn to it like magnets.
I'm glad this thread came up again.  It reminded me I need to buy a fountain pen for my next kid ready to move into full time cursive this fall.