Complaining Strategies

[displace]

I'm looking for some concrete limitations or strategies for when DS is complaining.  An ex: we were walking for a few hours at an amusement park.  At the end of the day there were a lot of comments about legs/feet tired, etc.  Some of it was complaining.  Some may have been just wanting to talk about or discuss it.  However, DS can talk for a while and after only a couple comments I'm very impatient to listen to any sort of frustration as we were just at an amusement park and my perspective is a lot different than DS. 

I'm considering allowing two of the same comment (that I consider a complaint), then needing to switch to only positive comments.  Or perhaps trying to have a conversation would be ok (in this instance, discussing how we are not used to walking for so long so it makes our body feel tired).  I'm very open to DS talking to me about anything, but after a bit of the same thing I can't allow it.  This happens often for many different activities that I would consider privileged.  There is also groaning, moaning, etc, for undesirable chores (most subjects), but is getting better this school year.  So, I'd rather the speech/discussion than the verbal noises, but I need to limit it.  Any resources?  DS also does much better with outside resources (videos or books) vs just hearing from mom, but rules or other suggestions would help too.

[Lecka]

Maybe planned ignoring?  You can make one response and then not pay attention.  

You could try that “how to talk so your kids will listen” and listen and then restate.  I think it really works sometimes.  https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/1451663889#immersive-view_1536173542183

If it makes a difference you could make outings shorter or plan a snack/rest before trekking through the parking lot. 

You could try distracting by talking about things from the day.  

I do think this is something a lot of kids do.  

 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Lecka

[displace]

I do think it can be normal to an extent.  I do think partly the comments are very prolonged to be called normal, and partly how his body is (more physically sensitive for instance).  I can try distracting techniques and reflection, too.  I’m unable to ignore when anyone is talking to me, which I think is part of how my brain works.  ? 

[PeterPan]

Don't know that I'm the one to say. My ds is almost the age of yours, and I put him in a stroller the last time we hit Disney. I was advised by our behaviorist to do it when we go again. I think situations can get overwhelming, whether the situation is privileged and awesome or not.

So I guess sometimes the strategy is to change *our* plans? Like sometimes our plans aren't realistic. I'd go all day, like 14 hours, and ds is more like 6 hours at the parks. He can't do what I want to do. So there's complaining and then there's me not catching on. Not saying don't, but I know I don't, lol. Ds tends to go physical rather than using language, so I guess complaining would actually be a step up for me. If your ds were going physical (same feelings, but not using good language), then it would be unavoidable to change the plans, sigh. I was just surprised to realize many people with kids with NO DISABILITIES only go to these parks for maybe 4 hours. 

When it's a situation I know ahead will provoke behaviors, I pre-plan and discuss with him what the strategies and options are and I tell him my firm expectations. Like I might have a firm expectation of NO LEPRECHAUN DANCING. I'm really not joking here. He was going to this counselor and dancing like a stinking LEPRECHAUN around the room, and I'm like ok, I have a firm expectation that that is OVER, done, that's not how we're rolling, and WHAT WILL IT TAKE for you to get there. Does that make sense? Like I put the ball in his court to collaborate and come up with strategies and solutions that can work so he can have the behavior I expect. That way, when we get in that situation, we know what our plans and options were and I can enforce it firmly and say nope, that behavior wasn't on the plan, this was your list of strategies, work the plan, make a choice so you can have the expected behavior and we can go on. So collaboration and pre-planning is vital for us.

So then an example of that? I've had times at Disney where ds was melting down, and I had to rent a $50 a pop stroller. That's a LOTTA DOUGH! And why was he melting down? We couldn't predict every single problem, and he had no plan on what his strategy was to deal with unexpected challenges. Well Disney, in their wisdom, has a solution for everything--Mickey Bars.  So our agreement is that he can have Mickey Bars any time he wants, because even at 10 a day (which he would never eat, mercy), he's still only break even or cheaper than renting a stroller unexpectedly. So you're too hot, fine lets stop and have a Mickey Bar. You're hungry? Fine, stop and have a mickey bar. Your feet hurt? Fine, stop and have a mickey bar. You're upset because I wouldn't buy you a $100 wookie? Fine, stop and have a Mickey Bar. 

I guess it's really bad psychology for life, lol, but it works. It's pre-planning and making strategies that we've collaborated on so we can hold to our expected behaviors more firmly. It puts things back in his court, because it's not MY JOB to keep him green zone. It's HIS JOB to self-advocate and say what he needs and make choices so he can stay in green zone. And frankly, if he's in green zone, he can put in ear buds and shut up. I don't know, I just, I guess go with your gut. If he bugs you that much, again, collaborate and make a plan. Everybody starts with $25 of credits for snacks. Every time he goes on and on complaining, you'll be overwhelmed and have to stop, and if you have to stop you're gonna have a Mickey Bar. And if you have a Mickey Bar because he was complaining and wearing you out, it slurps up $5 of HIS snack credits. Then it's costing him where he understands. 

I also try not to leave the park with bad behavior, as weird as that sounds. Like if he's so tired he's complaining, go find a place to rest, snack, put on headphones or earbuds, everybody gets back to their green zone, and even if it takes 45 minutes and costs you a pizza, you get back to green zone. THEN you picky up and go forward with no complaining. But if complaining gets you to leave or gets what he wants, then he just learned that complaining gets what he wants. So complaining can be like oh well I can't go forward because I can't walk like that. It's not safe, it distracts me, I'm getting a headache, we clearly all need to rest till we all feel green zone, whatever. Dis-empower complaining so it doesn't get him what he wants and bring in a choice yourself that gets everybody back to green zone. Green zone and calm helps us go forward, not negative behavior. 

That's like ds with driving. If he's like I want to go, I want to go, and he's not calm, I say sorry, I really want to take you home, but we have to sit here till you're calm because it's not safe for me to drive when you're not calm. And the world just stops. When we go to the parks again, I'm planning on taking TWO pairs of headphones this time instead of just one for the trip (we lost our other pair last time). It's just so essential to be able to stop the world, sit down, eat a little snack, and say we can reclaim our green and stop the crazy, no matter what the world thinks.

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, displace said:

partly how his body is (more physically sensitive for instance)

Is he that over-sensitive variant? Have you tried a good OT? Have you checked him super thoroughly for retained reflexes? My dd is hyper-sensitive like that, and I can tell you that it is much more exquisitely sensitive and an issue than you can even imagine. I'm so under-responsive that her over-responsive level is astonishing. Average things can be quite painful to her. You may need a lot more strategies and protections if that is going on.

The other thing dd was finally able to express to us (at 18/19, not 9/10, sigh) was her synesthesia. It's a really funky thing pairing the over-wiring of that and the over-sensitivity overall. Now that she's on a college campus, it can actually be unbelievably painful to her. She'll call me up and it's just unreal. She's working with people to get strategies. I'm just saying you never know, because he's still too young to tell you or to distinguish those things. I had NO CLUE that stuff was going on, and now that dd is older and on her own she's figuring it out.

So any time you're collaborating, listening, problem solving together, that can be good. But yeah, I don't know how you'd really know what's going on. They figure it out for themselves sometimes.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

Maybe planned ignoring?

Btw, I'm not saying don't try Lecka's very fine advice. It's sorta like when people looked at my ds and said well just spank him! Let's just say it didn't take many trials of that to have enough data to know it wasn't gonna be a good path.  Sometimes a little suck it up buttercup is the right call. Just depends on the kid, the mix, how within range the task is, how overwhelmed he is, how maxed out his problem solving is, etc.

[Guest]

When my oldest son kept complaining about feeling tired, needing to sit, feeling weak in the legs, I had his iron levels checked. Turned out he had iron deficiency anemia. We put him on an iron supplement (monitored by our GP) and haven't had any complaints since. Not saying this is what you are dealing with but sometimes it's good to think outside the box. This is not something my child could have known to tell me about on his own.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Guest

[Lecka]

With planned ignoring, it’s not that you don’t hear him or that he stops immediately, but you would limit your outward response.  

What depends a lot is what is going on.

Is he processing out loud?  That’s one thing.  If you have an out-loud processor, and you recognize it, then it’s like — you can just let him out-loud process and not need to respond to him, or have a personal emotional reaction to him.  Or — you do, but it’s kind-of about managing your own reaction.  That’s possible.

Is he messing with you, to distract himself, from habit, to have some interaction with you?  If you are part of a back-and-forth that is not productive, this is where planned ignoring is more of an option.  It’s a possible response to attention-maintained behavior, if looking back there is some kind of back-and-forth between you, or you are making a lot of responses, or he seems to really desire to draw you in, then you could do planned ignoring.  Planned ignoring plus proactively encouraging a replacement behavior can be good.  This could mean that you model more acceptable things to say (or conversation topics), and give him positive responses to that, and minimize your response to other things he says.  This is better because if he only has one style in this situation, then he may escalate it, instead of switching to another style.  

If you haven’t tried some kind of “you look tired” empathetic thing, it’s worth trying.  

In case you can’t tell, I am suggesting things that are more “management” oriented.  I’m not suggesting things where there is some kind of solution, and if you just do it, he’ll stop.  

I think it’s often more realistic to hope for reduction plus more strategic responses.

What happens if you’re going to try more strategic responses, is that you’re not just a person with your own thoughts and feelings.  Instead you are someone with your own thoughts and feelings, who is going to try to respond strategically, so it’s like you’re playing a role.  You still have your thoughts and feelings, but focusing on strategic responses can change the focus from “wow I’m feeling like this kid is pretty ungrateful” to “I’m being strategic and observant.  I’m trying something and looking for the response.  I’m not going to play my usual part and see if that changes the interaction and in what ways.”  

Are you able to talk to him about it in a calm, removed moment?  If he’s able to make a suggestion as to what might help him, that’s great.  A lot of kids won’t be that insightful.  If you ask it might lead him to think about it and come up with some ideas over time, though.  

 

[Lecka]

Personally I have done a lot with pro-active breaks (at the first sign of slowing down, or just after an hour when I thought he might need a break).  Proactive breaks that let kids recharge before they are at a low point can be really good.  My son is much more one who can get overstimulated.  Proactive breaks are great for that, extremely good.  

I have also done a lot with ending on a high note but doing things a shorter time.  A valuable strategy to me was to go later and then leave at the same time other people leave.  It is much better than leaving early.  It doesn’t feel like something is being missed.  

[Lecka]

Just to be clear, there is such a thing as attention-maintained behavior.  It’s not the case at all that everything a kid does is meant to irritate a parent.  If it’s not, then a perspective of “this isn’t about me, he’s not trying to irritate me” is so good.

But if there is some back-and-forth and he is pushing buttons, getting a response, then it is very possible there is some part of it that is attention-maintained.  Not 100%, but some part of it.  Then reducing attention can ratchet down the tension level and ratchet down any escalation.  It doesn’t take away kids having emotions, though.  

It just depends.  

 

[Lecka]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1890627585/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8

There are two books in this series.  This would be more if you think this is a perseveration I guess.  

If you think this is more sensory, maybe sensory strategies would be better.  

For my son he can need shade, he can need a place without a lot of visual stimulation.  He can get overstimulated without that.  

Having a proactive break is a top recommendation for any overstimulation.  Having breaks before too much builds up, helps a lot more than waiting for later signs when he’s more on the verge of really being overwhelmed.  

That is probably my only sensory strategy.  

[Lecka]

There is a way I think of things....

I cannot control my child’s behavior.

I can control my response.

I can do a lot to control the environment.  If I’m taking my son somewhere, to a great extent it’s on me to look at his signals and prevent overstimulation, to have a plan for him to have a rest, etc.  

But if a response I would make is going to be counter-productive, then “planned ignoring” is really just doing everyone a favor.  It’s reducing escalation.  

It’s not saying “suck it up” because if I’m doing everything I can as far as providing breaks and maintaining a calm emotional state myself, it’s not what I consider saying “suck it up.”  

I think it’s more acknowledging I can’t control another person’s thoughts, feelings, or emotions. It’s great if I can provide support, but sometimes providing support backfires because it is *just more stimulation.*  If it’s helpful that’s great, but often it is not, it can wind kids up more or make it harder for them to calm down.

I know not all kids are that way but I do see this with my kids.  

[Lecka]

If you can tell him “okay, I don’t want to hear any more complaining,” and it works, I think that’s great.  I think that’s totally acceptable. 

But if it were that easy I think you wouldn’t be asking about it lol.  If he won’t just stop because you have a brief discussion and then ask him to stop, then what?  Then I think it does get into management and just wanting things to go as smoothly as possible, realistically.  I think that is what is realistic for some situations. Not escalating can be a great outcome depending on what is going on.  Having a child take a while to have some emotion, but never getting too wild with it, is great, even if just going “okay stop” would be nice as a parent, it may not be the right goal.  

A change of perspective and looking at things like “he is still walking” or “he has walked a long way” or things like that can go a long way to change perspective, and it’s not a total cop-out I think, I think it is hard to do and also it is keeping the atmosphere more calm, which does go a long way and is not easy to pull off.  

[Lecka]

Labeling his negative emotions is actually a great strategy also.  It takes some of their power away.  This was counterintuitive to me (it seems like it’s focusing on them too much) but it turned out to go well here.  

It’s, again, not going to stop/end complaining, but it might shorten it, it might help the child have more self-regulation.  

You can also try modeling your own self-regulation with some statements like “I feel x because y.”  It’s one of those things you can see how it goes.  

Edited September 5, 2018 by Lecka

[displace]

2 hours ago, nwahomeschoolmom said:

I have no advice....but just wanted to say "I get it"...My son is very similar.  Sometimes things that seem "normal" for other kids, and may be "normal," are received differently when there is just SO MUCH we deal with.  An abundance of "normal behaviors" that wear on us, and make us need to employ strategies to cope as parents.  

Lately, I have been thinking of a special needs girl who went to our previous church.  I don't want to say what she had for their privacy, just in case.  Everyone loved being around her and she was just so sweet.  I was lucky if I was able to chat with her for a few minutes each week.  Now I get it, while she was so sweet and adorable to us, and she is, it was certainly not easy for her parents.  Everyone thinks my son is cute and quirky, and overly active of course, and loves their time with him, but I don't think many people understand how TAXING it is to be the parent of him.  I think I am at a place where I am finally glad they don't see exactly what I see, for his sake.  But its not easy.

I'd probably try all of the strategies you are trying to see if any worked. Also, "complaining, whining behavior" is something my son would lose stickers for which is linked to a reward/consequence...so I might say, "The first couple times you were sharing how you felt, but now you are whining/complaining, which is not okay.  If this continues, you will lose a sticker."

My son does this too...He is also never satisfied with attention and activities no matter how much he gets.  I went into his room tonight to have a few minutes chat with him to end the night on a good note, and of course, he kept trying and trying for more attention and not respecting my boundaries I had to leave on a bad note.  I said, "Sure, you can show me this one last thing before I go." But he just can't accept that...without seeing if he can guilt-trip me into staying longer or without whining.  Sometimes it feels like why do I even bother with anything at all, it will never be enough.  

Almost exactly this sums up some of my emotions.  DS is awesome but always ON, and is an extrovert.  After 14 hours each day for years I’m feeling a bit drained.  I’m an introvert and also have medical issues that cause days of being unwell and then my patience is limited, etc. Frequently, I have other stresses too.  I try to be cognizant of not taking on too much so I can’t handle everyone and the situation.  And I try to empathize and remember what being a kid is like, and how we all have our challenges.  I do warn that behaviors that make me regret doing fun things will lead to decreased opportunities for fun stuff in the future, then I feel a guilt backlash that he’s just trying to talk with me.  

I think I probably accept too much behavior that wears me down and now I need to curtail it with some more obvious expectations.  

DS is usually sensory seeking but has a few sensitivities as well.  We’ve checked for retained reflexes and some therapies help, like massage, but I’m not doing that in public.  We need to think of more plans to help him stay in the green zone by himself.  Most plans that we think are ok, don’t work in the moment.  And I’m usually off in the yellow zone myself, or worse and can’t talk either.  ☹️

So tricky!  ? Every day we both try, and I’m grateful.  It’s hard but worth it.

 

[Guest]

Sigh! I think we all go through phases of feeling drained every once in a while with emotionally intense kids. Medical problems on top of that would definitely compound that feeling. Many hugs to you!

M

Edited September 6, 2018 by Guest

[Lecka]

If he can have a massage while he’s sitting or standing, I would do it in public. There is often a quiet place if you look (though I have lived in small towns).  We have tended to do a lot of zoos, but some amusement parks have a garden or a picnic area.  They might be quieter.  

My son’s regulation has really improved, but I still pace him and I still pace myself.  I need to be on my A game, and if I am going to be exhausted the next day, then what?   

I think look at your weekly schedule and make sure you have some re-charge times.  If he has any activities or you can go to a park and recharge while he plays, then do what you need to do to recharge.  

I hope some routines are starting back up at this time of year, that are recharging for you.  If anything is very draining to you, it needs to be amazing for your son.  Even then maybe there’s another option that might be less draining to you.  

It is really important to try to avoid burn-out.  

I also think, my son was more obviously challenged, and it seems like it made it easier for me to say “okay, we’re doing this, we’re doing this all the time.”  

I have seen a lot of people who seem more like you go “he’s been having good days, I thought this would be fine.”  Or think “it’s not that bad, we don’t have to really commit to management.”  

My opinion is just commit to management.  Do what needs to be done, be proactive.  Don’t second-guess yourself about it.  Don’t say “I thought it would be fine this time” about anything until 6 months have passed.  

I think this is a mental thing. It’s also true, a lot of things would have gone fine without being proactive, maybe, and then it can see wasteful, but I don’t think it is wasteful.  

 

[Lecka]

I also think “this was supposed to be fun” is a trap.  

A lot of things that are supposed to be fun, are challenging for some kids, because it’s a change in routine, more transitions, and more stimulation.  

I think I have feelings like “I feel bitter because this should be something fun” but then I do what I can to be proactive.  And then if it goes well then I feel foolish.  If it seems like it went a little bad then I feel glad it wasn’t worse without my attempts.  Sometimes things go poorly and I realize something could have been done differently, sometimes it is just a bad day.  

My son has made a lot of progress with self-regulation, but it takes time.  It helps when things are manageable for everyone, it is less stressful.  Even if it’s still stressful, it’s less stressful than it would be.  Hopefully with management there is some more breathing space for your son to practice his good self-regulation.  Sometimes he will sometimes he won’t, lol, but it can be a better chance.  

 

[Lecka]

I also think sticker charts are great.  

I think that would be great to try at home.  If it works well at home you can try it away from home.  

Ime that is something that doesn’t work as well when kids are tired or overstimulated, unless it’s already going pretty well.  It takes already having some good regulation and being in a decent zone.  

 

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, nwahomeschoolmom said:

Sometimes it feels like why do I even bother with anything at all, it will never be enough.  

My ds was like that, and some of it was the reflexes (which you're on, score), but also there's the issue of the TYPE of interaction and attention. We ran evals and bumped our language significantly, and that helped some of that. Also RDI seems to meet that really deep need for him. Crimson keeps mentioning the RDI book, and it's good. You can also just hire an RDI consultant and do an intake eval and let them give you a list of tasks to work on. Then you report back with videos and get a new list. RDI, working on those non-verbals, is very powerful with my ds. And it's stuff that is super easy to integrate into life, so it's not like this big hassle. It's just oh I have a moment and we could sneak it in here, sorta like veges in your brownies or something, and it superpowers what you were going to do anyway. You would not think that working on non-verbals would be calming for my ds and settle that "needs more than any one person can give" thing, but it really does.