Oh SpyCar (and others).....raw diet questions

[ktgrok]

I feel like I'm summoning something I can't control by asking this, lol, but my sweet, obnoxious, getting to almost be a good boy hound mix is a terrible kibble eater. As in, knocks it on the floor, won't eat it half the time or more, pain in my butt. Hot water mixed in just means I have wet kibble knocked on my floor. And then the other dog eats it, and he's too heavy to be getting extra food. And then the baby eats it..etc. Mixing canned in sometimes works, sometimes not. 

Gave him a chicken thigh today and after he realized yes, he was allowed to eat it, he gobbled it up. Tonight I had leftover scrambled eggs so I gave him those plus a bit of kibble and again, didn't eat the kibble. Fine, whatever, I give up. 

So, i need the EASY, BASIC, has FOUR kids, FOUR pets, trying to write a book while homeschooling and oh yeah, is on a budget, down and dirty version of raw. Like, not looking for perfect. Not looking for performance. Looking for good enough, won't kill the dog, won't take a bunch of time and trips to thirteen different stores and days prepping food. 

I have easy access to leg quarters, decent access to organ meat (lots of hispanic and caribbean people in this area which influences what is carried), etc. He weights 66 pounds, and is lean at that weight. Goes to the dog park for at least an hour or two a few times a week, other days gets one or two miles of walking, plus a few random bouts of running around the back yard, etc. He's doing a bit of swimming now, not much, but some, as I'd like him to be comfortable in the water. The rest of the day she likes to snooze ? So active, but no longer super active by any means. He'll be 2 in September. 

I'm seeing various ranges for feeding, I'm thinking 2% body weight, give or take? Easy to me would be chicken thighs or leg quarters, chicken hearts, chicken livers, and then rounded out with some eggs, and the occasional (cooked) left overs from our food. Plus I guess some fish oil for omega 3s, or some sardines. Obviously I'd change it up a bit as I could, but as a barebones plan am I on the right track here?

 

[Sdel]

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/raw-dog-food/

https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/

https://dogfoodchat.com/

What you are describing is called prey-model raw.  There are lots of sites that can help you plan an optimal diet. It’s a lot of work, and really needs a lot of variety, no getting around it.  

Stefanie

[Liz CA]

I think you got it.

2% for maintaining - up or down if they need to gain/lose weight.

Monitor dog - check rib cage - you know all this as a vet tech.

We feed ground meat (beef & turkey as available), raw chicken, raw fish (certain kind only), frozen liver (chop off a piece. It does not smell if frozen and is easy to cut).

She also gets Platinum Performance supplement for joints and trace minerals. She is funny in that she likes Kefir so I let her have some of that even though we never feed dairy prods but Kefir is fermented. Previous dog (Cane Corso) ate apples and carrots. This one (boxer) likes apples and bananas only. Those are only occasional treats. ETA: I do feed hard boiled yolk and egg whites sometimes as well.

All I can say is she seems to be doing well, breath does not smell, no hot spots or other skin issues that our dogs had before we switched.

I am careful feeding small bones as they can lodge in the esophagus. Large cow bones (hip, thigh) should be okay.

 

[ktgrok]

Bumping my own post because I saw spy car around on the boards, lol. 

[ktgrok]

So, he still is a bit weird about eating the chicken, but in a "I really like this so I don't want to eat it because then it will be all gone" way, which is typical for him and things he likes. The first time he did it, with a bully stick when he was a few months old, i thought he was having some kind of mental breakdown or atypical seizure activity, lol. He just paces and whines with whatever it is in his mouth. Sigh. Not sure that is better then him knocking kibble all over, but at least it kept him occupied for a while. I gave it to him outside, and he ran around with it for a while, then got it covered in dead leaves and cried, then I washed it off and he ate the rest of it, lol. Today I gave it to him and left him out there and he seemed to get down to business a bit quicker. I'm going to put his crate back together so I can feed him in there I think, to prevent the running around with chicken in his mouth scenario - even outside I don't want dead chicken dripped all over the place. I can wipe down the crate. Plus, really, I was thinking that if he ever has to be crated for medical reasons or whatever I should keep him used to it. The issue is it is huge (he's SO tall/leggy) so I hate having it in my house. I may put it on the back patio, although I imagine it may rust/corrode in Florida humidity? And we won't put him in it much if it is out there. Sigh. 

Oh, and for the other dog, than can't chew things at all, I'm doing cooked chicken...I pressure cook it and then pull the meat off. then I put the bones back in and cook until soft and mushy and grind them and add them back in to the meat. I'll probably feed both dogs that in the evenings, and then add some kibble for the older one that is brain damaged (he's set in his ways) and do the raw for the hound in the morning. Plus scraps, plus some eggs now and then, plus sardines now and then, plus liver now and then. Right now I'm not worried about the organ meet, I can add that in in a week or so when I get the logistics figured out. 

[Spy Car]

OK. The short version.

You want to feed approximately 80% "meat" (that includes muscle, fat, connective tissues, skin, etc.)

You would want to feed about 5% liver and 5% other "secreting organs" (things like kidney, spleen/melts, sweetbreads, etc).

You want to feed 10% soft edible bone (like raw chicken pieces with bone).

If you feed Chicken Quarters (a good cheap and healthful option) you need to know it is about 30% bone. You want bone at about 10%. So you'd need to feed approximately two equal sized serving of "meat" to balance the meal (plus the organs).

It is important to balance meat and bone to maintain proper calcium to phosphorus mineral ratios. The balance can be accomplished over time vs needing to balance every meal, but sometimes it is easier to feed a drumstick or a thigh in order to balance meals.

Other than that try to diversify proteins as much as possible and within budgets.

Nice fatty pork leg tends to be very inexpensive where I live. Beef heart also tends to be inexpensive.

I never serve beef bones myself as they pose too great a risk to teeth for my comfort zone.

Never feed salmon or trout from the Pacific Northwest raw as they carry a potentially fatal disease. Most other oily ocean fish is great on occasion.

Eggs are good. Limit raw egg whites. If you feed a lot of eggs cook the whites. In small batches raw egg whites are OK.

Look up bone percentages for various chicken pieces and balance the diet against them.

I like to break organs into 10% sized pieces and individually freeze. One day I feed liver, the second day I feed "other" (such as kidney).

I also break down an freeze meat portions in sizes I can use to balance meals.

It takes a little thinking at first, but balancing meat and bones become second nature.

Fat is an excellent source of energy for dogs. You will want to feed full-fat meals. However, in the transition off high-carb kibbles I advise restricting fats in the beginning (stripping skin off chicken, trimming meats, etc). Save the fat for later by freezing. Then as the days go by slowly increase the fat to the full amount.

I hope this helps.

Any questions?

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

Also, dogs make almost unlimited energy from fat metabolism. No "boom and bust" cycles with fluctuating blood sugar levels as with kibble (carbohydrate-rich foods). As a result you can (and I'd argue should) feed just once a day (after the dog's day is done). You won't believe how much less waste you will need to pick up.

Adjust amounts by "condition." 2% is a reasonable starting point, but trust rib palpations over formulas.

ETA: As the dog gets stronger (his neck and jaw muscles will become very strong in short order) the leg quarters that require "work" now will become child's play. I feed my Vizsla frozen chicken pieces to slow him down a bit. Your guy will transform.

For grins, take a good picture of his teeth now. Then takes similar ones at intervals to monitor the progress. I expect you'll see a big difference over time.

Bill

[ktgrok]

ok, that seems to match what I've been seeing. For adding other meat, if the meaty bones are mainly leg portions, would you then add breast meat (if doing chicken) or other lean meat, to kind of balance out the fat level of the leg quarters? How much plain muscle meat would you add to say, a bone in chicken thigh, to balance out the meat/bone ratio? maybe you could tell me what your dog tends to eat in a day, or over a few days, that might help me visualize this a bit better. 

For the dog that can't chew things (the one that had a head injury as a puppy...he looks a long time to even be able to crunch a dog treat or kibble, and has never been able to chew say a bully stick or whatever) I cooked up a batch of chicken leg quarters and some chicken breasts in the pressure cooker, then recooked the bones until they were soft and ground them p and mixed it all together. I am mixing that with his kibble for now but as we run out of kibble will probably shift him to that only. Make sense? He's a 10 year old border collie who is sweet but dumb as rocks from the brain damage. I'm figuring the cooked is at least somewhat beneficial if he can't chew up the other stuff. 

Oh, and I did end up setting up his crate in the bedroom, and it's easy enough to wipe it down when he's done for hygiene reasons. But curious how/where you feed raw to your Visla?

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

ok, that seems to match what I've been seeing. For adding other meat, if the meaty bones are mainly leg portions, would you then add breast meat (if doing chicken) or other lean meat, to kind of balance out the fat level of the leg quarters? How much plain muscle meat would you add to say, a bone in chicken thigh, to balance out the meat/bone ratio? maybe you could tell me what your dog tends to eat in a day, or over a few days, that might help me visualize this a bit better. 

For the dog that can't chew things (the one that had a head injury as a puppy...he looks a long time to even be able to crunch a dog treat or kibble, and has never been able to chew say a bully stick or whatever) I cooked up a batch of chicken leg quarters and some chicken breasts in the pressure cooker, then recooked the bones until they were soft and ground them p and mixed it all together. I am mixing that with his kibble for now but as we run out of kibble will probably shift him to that only. Make sense? He's a 10 year old border collie who is sweet but dumb as rocks from the brain damage. I'm figuring the cooked is at least somewhat beneficial if he can't chew up the other stuff. 

Oh, and I did end up setting up his crate in the bedroom, and it's easy enough to wipe it down when he's done for hygiene reasons. But curious how/where you feed raw to your Visla?

Except in the transition, don't think "lean meat" but reasonably "fatty" meat. Fat is the fuel dogs are shaped by evolution to thrive on. Fat is vital. 

You could use boneless chicken; however,  most people prefer to diversify proteins with the idea of trying to cover nutritional need though diversity so will use pork, beef, etc. If the chicken piece has 1 part in 3 of bone, and the goal is 1 part in 9, you add 2 pieces of boneless meat roughly the size of that chicken piece. The organs prove the last 10%.

For visualization, my Vizsla (about the size of your dog) might eat a large chicken drumstick (or two of the little ones), a roughly equal sized piece of pork, a similar sized piece of beef heart, and a 10% sized piece of organ as his daily meal. This varies.

I'm not an authority on feeding "soft as mush" bones. Cooked bones are bad. Mush bones I suspect would work. Ground eggshell is another source of calcium. Do research on how to hit the 1.2:1 Calcium to Phosphorus ratio dogs require. You would not want to cause an imbalance by feeding too much bone or (less likely) too little.

I feed my Vizsla in a stainless bowl outdoors. It is hysterical. He leaps high into the air in excitement at mealtime. He LOVES! his food (love being too tame a word). Even when feeding frozen (typical for me) he destroys his meal. The neck and jaw muscles are so strong.

I love what this style of feeding has done for my guy. At 4+ he still looks like a very young dog. Clean teeth, no body fat, and hard muscled. Perfect.

One of the best decisions I've made. PMR feeding is quite amazing. You will see big changes in the conditions of your dogs.

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

That helps, thank you! Of course, the one that most needs improvement is the one with the chewing issues, sigh. He's the one that is overweight with some dental issues and skin issues. The young hound has pretty teeth still and is lean and looks great. But of course, that's because he's young still, lol.