hands-on-mama Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Please explain this program to me? I’m trying to really understand how the instruction works here. I’m super torn on writing for my girls. They are going into 3rd and 5th. I’m not certain that this will be the right program, but it definitely teaches the writing process. CAP just looks more pleasing to the eye. Please help me! What am I missing with CAP? It seems to be popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrierocha Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 I don't quite understand your question. Are you asking something specific about Writing & Rhetoric or are you asking about the progymnasta? W&R follows the progymnasta, as does Memoria's Classical Composition. The progymnasta is an approach to writing that starts the student on modifying existing text before they write free form from their own minds. It also builds level by level to sort of mix thinking and writing together. I have used both W&R and Classical Composition as I am a believer in the progymnasta. W&R is easy enough to teach as you just follow right along. It is pretty well scripted and they even give sample writing responses so you can gauge whether your student seems to be in the ballpark. If you have a specific question please clarify and I will try to help if I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3plus Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Following...and if anyone has any thoughts on how these programmes differ to Writing with ease/skill I'd love to know. xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hands-on-mama Posted May 29, 2018 Author Share Posted May 29, 2018 6 hours ago, carrierocha said: I don't quite understand your question. Are you asking something specific about Writing & Rhetoric or are you asking about the progymnasta? W&R follows the progymnasta, as does Memoria's Classical Composition. The progymnasta is an approach to writing that starts the student on modifying existing text before they write free form from their own minds. It also builds level by level to sort of mix thinking and writing together. I have used both W&R and Classical Composition as I am a believer in the progymnasta. W&R is easy enough to teach as you just follow right along. It is pretty well scripted and they even give sample writing responses so you can gauge whether your student seems to be in the ballpark. If you have a specific question please clarify and I will try to help if I can. I guess I really don’t understand the program style of writing instruction. It looks mor like narration than anything in the early books (and I suppose that’s what it is). I’m just trying to make sure i’m Not missing something when looking at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrierocha Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 It starts as narration, but builds gently from there. It introduces literary concepts like anthropomorphism. It teaches students how to expand their summary and how to really, really boil something down to its essence of just a few sentences. It gives guided writing activities that springboard off the fable they are studying. For instance, they might write a few paragraphs of a fable like the lion and the mouse, but use different animals. I found it helpful to look at samples of some of the higher levels so I could see where my student would be going. Even if you go with W&R you might find the samples on Memoria Press's website to be helpful including their video samples of how they teach from their books. I like the higher level video samples. Personally, I found it to be an impressive integration of writing and thinking that is perfectly suited for the rhetoric student, but foundational work is done in Fable and Narrative levels. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targhee Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 The series walks through the levels of the progymnasmata. The first 5 books are roughly the format of: read a writing selection (narrative Chreia, etc), narrate or outline the selection (there’s dictation in the earlier levels too), and then discuss the selection and answer some questions. Then working on writing style (lots of word and sentence level work - eg using stronger verbs, rearranging the sentence for variation, mimicking model sentences, etc). After that there is writing - either amplifying or summarizing, writing in the same model (eg a Chreia). There are also speaking (pre rhetoric skills) activities like poetry memorization, read through a dialogue, or writing a short speech and deliver, etc. The program works incrementally, there is a lot of variety to the activities (vs strict narration, dictation, copywork and then narrations and outlines). It is much more than narration. My favorite part of the program is the Talk About It and Go Deeper sections, which baby step you into discussing ideas. Ideas are critical to writing! Who cares if you can write a structurally correct essay with good style if the thing you have to say isn’t worthwhile? Some people feel there isn’t enough in the teacher manual (there isn’t a lot, but there are good things in there). We did use the Remedia Press outlining book for several weeks b cause the outlining instruction was insufficient. Otherwise I really I have loved this program. Good luck, HTH 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zarabellesmom Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 14 hours ago, Targhee said: Some people feel there isn’t enough in the teacher manual (there isn’t a lot, but there are good things in there). We did use the Remedia Press outlining book for several weeks b cause the outlining instruction was insufficient. Otherwise I really I have loved this program. Good luck, HTH I agree with the outlining instruction being insufficient. I looked for a Remedia Press book on outlining but a quick search isn't turning it up for me. Can't you point me in the right direction Targhee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormaElle Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I don't want to hijack but is W&R worthwhile to use for a year between WWE and WWS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 41 minutes ago, zarabellesmom said: I agree with the outlining instruction being insufficient. I looked for a Remedia Press book on outlining but a quick search isn't turning it up for me. Can't you point me in the right direction Targhee? These are the ones I see recommended frequently. Wendy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targhee Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 45 minutes ago, zarabellesmom said: I agree with the outlining instruction being insufficient. I looked for a Remedia Press book on outlining but a quick search isn't turning it up for me. Can't you point me in the right direction Targhee? https://www.amazon.com/REMEDIA-PUBLICATIONS-REM134-OUTLINING-GR/dp/B000QCBC2M 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targhee Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 25 minutes ago, NormaElle said: I don't want to hijack but is W&R worthwhile to use for a year between WWE and WWS? It is very different than WWE or WWS, and it’s a program that builds. I don’t think it would be a waste, but it isn’t going to be a bridge between the two. The narrations in W&R are easier than WWE 4, and the dictation is easier than WWE 3 (IMO). However, W&R was so much more enjoyable than WWE, at least for us. And there is a lot more to it than narration and dictation - there’s discussion, and lots of work on style, and there’s original composition. If you want to do it you might start in book 2 or 3 if you are coming out of WWE 3. If you are waiting on maturity to start WWS then you might just continue doing narration and dictation from your own selections. That would be a better bridge between programs. W&R got my boy who hates academic writing, *hates* narration, and HATES dictation moving with writing. He has natural style and voice, but the exercises in W&R improved on those traits. The stand out part of W&R is the underlying vision of teaching truth, beauty, wisdom. It is not overt, but it is apparent in the selections, in the discussion questions, in the overall direction of the program, and even in the materials themselves. Honestly for middle school I wish there were a good combination of LToW (for persuasive essay structure, invention, and thorough weighing of an issue on which to write) and WWS *with additional attention to the big picture of why you’re doing each step* (for research writing), and W&R (for the progym models, the variety of writing activities, and the intentional direction towards truth and beauty). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targhee Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Paradox5 said: So we can all look forward to you releasing such a program in time for fall, right? ? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 We are using both MP and CAP writing programs. My oldest will continue with MP. My two younger kiddos are using CAP. CAP is slightly easier to teach initially because it’s written to the student directly and pretty well scripted. MP was not as easy to use but I also had a better idea of the method starting into CAP. All if my kids, including my dysgraphic/dyslexic writing hater, LOVE this method. It’s often the first subject they grab. Fables are just fun! My oldest is a natural writer But this method has improved her analysis while reading and her descriptions while writing more than I imagined possible! I really love them both! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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