IEW Writing Curr. Advice Needed

[MusicMama]

I have let my Dd 10 writing instruction fall to the side. She's very bright and loves to read, and has kept a journal from a young age. I had 5 kids in five years, was a bit shell shocked, and needed time to recover. Then, we had a bout of medical issues to take care. I feel awful that I let her writing instruction fall to the way-side. ? So there's my sob story. ?

She's about to complete 5th grade and has finished FLL 4 and AAS 5. She has never had any formal writing instruction. I know I need to get her up to speed on her writing and plan to focus on that this coming school year. I am very interested in IEW Student Writing Intensive B. My DS 9 will be in 4th grade next year, he loves to read and has completed FLL 3 and AAS 3, but he doesn't naturally enjoy writing. Would it be a good idea to combine them? From what I've read, I could get the SWI-B and download the pdf's of the SWI-A pages and they could work together. Is it a full year program for those ages? It says 15-30 weeks, and at that price I would want to know *now* if I needed to purchase another level in the spring! But the year after, where would that leave me? DD would move on to SWI-B Continuation and could use that for 7th and 8th grades, correct? And DS would move on to the theme based books for 5th grade, and then he could use SWI-B Continuation plus Level B theme books for 6th, 7th, and 8th grade?

Also, after they have finished FLL 4, do they need additional grammar instruction along with SWI? I saw that IEW has the Fix It! series and SWB now has Grammar for the Well Trained Mind. 

I have a Ds 7 finishing first grade and twin Dd's who are 5 and will be in kindergarten next year. I'm hoping to re-use this curriculum for all of them. It's expensive but my writing instruction suffered when I was homeschooled and I don't want that for my children. However, we have a tight budget. I don't want to purchase unnecessary levels and also want to stretch my dollar (and instruction time!) as far as possible. I have thoroughly enjoyed SWB's other books but I need more student independent work in this upcoming year as the twins will be in kindergarten. I am stretched thin with homeschooling and work responsibilities, and like the guided DVD lessons where the older two could be doing writing while I am helping the younger three.      

Thanks so much for any advice! I feel overwhelmed with my oldest starting middle school!

 

[Mona]

3 hours ago, MusicMama said:

From what I've read, I could get the SWI-B and download the pdf's of the SWI-A pages and they could work together. Is it a full year program for those ages?

Yes, you can do it that way. It is a full year program.

They can both do a theme-based book the following year and then do the continuation course together the year after that. The SICC-B is more than a year's worth of work. An IEW rep told me that it can take one and a half years to complete it.

They didn't always have the Fix-it and I've only used book one, "The Nose Tree". It was okay, and my children liked it, but they will get grammar reinforcement in their writing. They'll learn about strong verbs, quality adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, and clausal openers. So, if you did a light grammar program or none at all this coming year, I think they would be fine. You decide depending on how well they know their grammar at this point. I think it is okay to skip a year if you do. 

I'm struggling adding a K'er in with my two high-schoolers, and I'm still trying to figure out a good schedule for us to stick to get it all done without wearing me out.

[TheAttachedMama]

First, I would let go of any guilt about being behind with composition instruction.   I don't think you are really "behind"!  You have been doing First Language Lessons and All About Spelling which are two very good programs.   (And two teacher intensive programs!   I am amazed that you have been able to teach those with 5 kids!   Good job mama!)   I bet FLL and AAS have laid a VERY strong foundation for your children.   They will know how to spell well, they know basic grammar, and they have been doing copywork/dictation/narration/poetry memorization in FLL.    Assuming they have been listening to read alouds, or audiobooks or even just reading, I think you are going to find they aren't as "behind" as you are thinking.   

PLUS---IEW will tell you:  "It is never too late to learn to write well!"   Their programs will get your kids up to speed very quickly!  :) :) 

To answer your questions on pacing:

I have only used IEW SWI A before.  I plan to use IEW SWI B + the "easier to read" level A handouts to combine my two children this year.  So I have researched it quite a bit.  Based on the samples,  the pacing and structure of IEW SWI A and B are very similar.   So I will take a shot at answering some of your questions based on my limited experience.   (Hopefully, others will chime in too!)    (I've also used FLL and Fix it before.   So I can compare those two programs.)

The SWI courses were initially meant to be taught as an "intensive" writing course over just a few days.  The class of children in the videos are learning all of this information in just a few days.   So you could theoretically cram all of the SWI instruction into a week!    However, it would probably feel like you were trying to take a sip of water from a fire hydrant!   It would be a lot of new information and a lot of physical writing.  Your kids would probably be left feeling exhausted, and they wouldn't have much time to practice the new skills you have taught them.

SO, they have included a schedule for SWI that spreads the course over 33 weeks.   (You can view this in the samples.)  To make the course longer, they have included some extra source material and composition checklists to give the kids extra time to practice some of the skills they have been taught.     (There is no video instruction for the extra source material.   However, I watched the DVD with my kids and was able to teach it very easily.)

I will warn you:   The amount of daily time they devote to composition in their schedule is not even.    Some days the video instruction alone took 45-60 mins.   Other days you were just creating a keyword outline which took about 15-20 mins.    Other days you were just editing your draft or copying it over neatly.   (Time will vary greatly on this!)  Because the amount of time is not even, you could very possibly double up the lighter days and complete the entire SWI-B program in 15 weeks.   I did this with SWI A.  This is a nice option if you are working with older kids who maybe need a summer intensive writing course.     

However, you are in no rush given the ages of your children.    You could just make the decision to spend a full year on IEW SWI B and have some lighter days mixed in.    Kieep in mind, some people don't even start grammar instruction until age 10...and your child has already had 4 years of grammar instruction.   They are ahead of the ball game!   And many people do not start "formal" composition until ages 10+.   It is just SO MUCH easier to teach.    (Scroll down a bit on this article to gain some perspective:  https://www.simplyconvivial.com/2016/teach-writing-without-curriculum/)  So again, you are not "behind" and I see no reason to rush through SWI B.   I would just plan on some days being lighter than others.    You can always find somethng to fill this time with.   Assign free reading if the day feels light.   Or start typing instruction, etc. etc.  

Concerning Grammar:

The new "Grammar for the Well Trained Mind" is a GREAT program and very rigorous.   However, it is also VERY teacher intensive.    I think using IEW + AAS + Grammar for the Well trained mind + juggling 5 kids would make any mama lose her mind.    (At least, I would lose my mind.   ??)    Even if you found a way to get it all done, you will probably feel very stressed out.    The one lesson I have l learned with homeschool planning is that you have to be realistic and intentional about what you spend your instructional time and resources on.    No matter what we might want to do, there are only 24 hours in a day.    Right? 

So I would suggest that you intentionally invest your instructional time on composition next year, and find a less teacher intensive grammar program.  

Here are two options you might want to consider.

Option 1:  Use Fix it Grammar:   Fix it grammar is VERY light compared to TWTM approach to teaching grammar.   The first 2-3 books are going to be a review for your children.  However, that isn't a bad thing because it will keep them from forgetting what they have learned in FLL.   Plus, you will have an opportunity to see if they can apply what they have learned in FLL to an actual story.   They have a lot of grammar memory work stored in their brains now, but can they parse real sentences from an actual story...not just contrived sentences from a grammar book?     

Fix it also pairs really well with IEW.  It gives them more practice with the dress-ups they will learn about in composition.   And more importantly, it teaches them editing skills that they can apply to their own writing.    It also gave them valuable copywork practice (it can double as penmanship practice), spelling re-enforcement, and even some vocabulary practice.   

Most importantly, it isn't going to take a ton of instructional time.   Spend a few weeks training your kids to read through the grammar notes at the beginning of the year, and I bet your children will be able to do this program mostly independently.  (That has been my experience with my 9 and 10-year-old.)   You will just have to set aside to go over their completed work with them so they get direct feedback and have time to ask questions.  

Option 2:   Junior Analytical Grammar:   Let's say that you don't want a lighter grammar program.  Let's say that you want a very thorough grammar program that includes lots of diagramming.    Another option to consider is Junior Analytical Grammar.    The great thing about JAG is that it is only an 11-week course.   You could easily "front load" your year with grammar instruction, and then complete SWI B in the remaining weeks.   (You might have to double up a few lighter days in IEW, but it wouldn't be too much work at all.)   I would not try to do both IEW and JAG.  I feel like your days will be too long.

JAG is nice because it comes with video instruction.   (The videos even work a few examples from the workbook.  The instructor asks children to pause the video and complete the example.  Then, when they are finished, they press play and can check their work.)    Once again, with a little training at the beginning of the year, I am willing to bet that your children will be able to move towards an "assign and check" model of instruction with JAG.  (At least, that was my experience.)  

[TheAttachedMama]

I also wanted to add:

My kids are pretty good at working independently.  However,  I don't think you can count on your older kids working through IEW while you work with your younger kids.    I was able to make spelling independent.  (I can tell you how I did this if you are interested.)    I was even able to make grammar instruction independent at this age (see above).   However, I had to pretty much count on teaching composition each day.   I had to create a time budget and make sure I could devote instructional time to this subject each day in order to teach it well.  (I actually had to find something "independent" for my kindergartner to do while I taught writing!)   That was my experience at least.   

Some parts of composition are independent.   For example, when the kids go off and re-copy (or type) their final draft...but plan on being there a lot to teach the class.

I was never able to find the time to watch the TWSS videos ahead of time. (blushing!)  So I had to watch the IEW SWI DVDs with my kids so I knew the terms and instructional strategies used in the program.  Plus, the extra source material (used for practice) does not have video instruction.   It assumes it is being taught using the information in the instructor's guide.   

I hope this helps some!

[Smiles]

I have a question hope you all don't mind. I'm not great at writing and I find it hard to teach, so would I absolutely need the Teaching Writing Style and Structure dvds? Also my son will be 11 and in 5 th grade is it ok if I start with level A? He has done half of FLL 4 and part of WWE 3, I stopped because he started getting upset every time I pulled WWE out. The narrations he did great at but the dictation is hard for him. Honestly I would struggle with the dictations! I hope I don't upset anyone by asking. Maybe I should have started another thread. Thank you

[cintinative]

57 minutes ago, Smiles said:

I have a question hope you all don't mind. I'm not great at writing and I find it hard to teach, so would I absolutely need the Teaching Writing Style and Structure dvds? Also my son will be 11 and in 5 th grade is it ok if I start with level A? He has done half of FLL 4 and part of WWE 3, I stopped because he started getting upset every time I pulled WWE out. The narrations he did great at but the dictation is hard for him. Honestly I would struggle with the dictations! I hope I don't upset anyone by asking. Maybe I should have started another thread. Thank you

 

Smiles, I find that the Story Sequence Chart was the hardest one of the models for me to learn and teach. For that one, I did lean on the TWSS. My suggestion is that if you have a library with a copy of it, or a friend with the videos, see if you can borrow them and watch them like an intensive this summer.   There is a lot of instruction in the SWI videos for the kids.

For a 5th grader, I would use SWI-A unless his reading level, etc. is really high.  Essentially the difference between SWI-B and SWI-A are reading level of the source material and pacing.  So if he is a "normal" 5th grader, SWI-A is designed for 3rd-5th grade. He will be just fine. It is good to give him a sense of success starting out, especially since he struggled with the prior writing.  

Also, IEW has a 100% money back guarantee, no time limit on everything they sell if you buy from them directly.  So consider that if you are shopping for a new set.  They offer free shipping around July 4th.

[Mona]

50 minutes ago, Smiles said:

I have a question hope you all don't mind. I'm not great at writing and I find it hard to teach, so would I absolutely need the Teaching Writing Style and Structure dvds? Also my son will be 11 and in 5 th grade is it ok if I start with level A? He has done half of FLL 4 and part of WWE 3, I stopped because he started getting upset every time I pulled WWE out. The narrations he did great at but the dictation is hard for him. Honestly I would struggle with the dictations! I hope I don't upset anyone by asking. Maybe I should have started another thread. Thank you

Hi Smiles, A lot of people feel they need help with teaching writing. IEW started out with just the TWSS, but many people needed more hand holding and asked that Pudewa just teach their kids, so they came out with the Student Writing Intensive DVDs. He can start in level A. Level A is suggested for grades 3-5. SWI A, B, and C all start at the beginning. Level B covers a couple more topics than A, but if you continue with IEW the following years, he will eventually work his way through all the units. My children enjoy watching Mr. Pudewa and laugh at his jokes. The assignments are broken down into small steps each day until you have a complete assignment.

[Mona]

3 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Also, IEW has a 100% money back guarantee, no time limit on everything they sell if you buy from them directly.  So consider that if you are shopping for a new set.  They offer free shipping around July 4th.

Yes, and this!

 

[cintinative]

On 5/26/2018 at 5:10 PM, MusicMama said:

IFrom what I've read, I could get the SWI-B and download the pdf's of the SWI-A pages and they could work together. Is it a full year program for those ages? It says 15-30 weeks, and at that price I would want to know *now* if I needed to purchase another level in the spring! But the year after, where would that leave me? DD would move on to SWI-B Continuation and could use that for 7th and 8th grades, correct? And DS would move on to the theme based books for 5th grade, and then he could use SWI-B Continuation plus Level B theme books for 6th, 7th, and 8th grade?

Also, after they have finished FLL 4, do they need additional grammar instruction along with SWI? I saw that IEW has the Fix It! series and SWB now has Grammar for the Well Trained Mind. 

 

 

Somewhat of a repeat from The Attached Mama but since I have done a lot of what you are listing here, I thought I would chime in.

SWI-A can be 30 weeks. They add in extra assignments to fill it out as The Attached Mama mentioned.  Also, yes, they still do offer the pdf packet of source material for A if you choose to do SWI-B and adjust down for one kid. The material covered in SWI-A and SWI-B is the same. The difference (other than the ages of kids in the video) is the reading level of the source material and the pacing. SWI-B moves a little bit faster.  IEW encourages parents that there is no such thing as too much help. So keep this in mind as you come alongside both in assignments. Scribe if you need to for your younger one. 

If you want to fill out SWI-B to a full 36 weeks, sometimes during their 12 Days of Christmas promotion they will have a free download of the source material packet. Or, you can choose source material from a history encyclopedia, science encyclopedia, Aesop's fables, etc. 

As noted, sometimes the videos are long. We tended to break up the longer videos over two days when they were more than a half hour.

After SWI-B your choices are: a level B theme based or SICC-B.  As noted upthread, SICC-B can be done in one year or more. Actually the schedule in it is for one year or two years.  We just wrapped up year one doing a modified 2 year schedule (not fully two year and not as reduced as the one year). Anyway, you have options for that one as far as timing.  Your youngest might be able to do this with your older one in 2019-2020. You'll just have to see how it goes with SWI-B.

For the grammar, this is my muddled journey. We did FLL 1 through 4, finishing book 4 when my oldest was in 4th grade. In 5th grade, Grammar for the Well-Trained Mind did not exist, so we did Fix-It Book 1.  I chose that level because they were still making mechanics errors (commas, periods, etc.) but it was really too easy for them.  However, they loved how easy it was. Then we started Jr. Analytical Grammar.  We all pretty much hated it. I really need more instruction as the teacher than Jr. Analytical Grammar is set up to provide.  (FYI. I didn't have the videos) So, while I had planned to do Analytical Grammar in 6th-8th, I began to doubt that plan. Enter Grammar for the Well Trained Mind, which came out last fall. We used it starting from when the sample came out and did not finish this year. I will tell you this--it is intense. I really enjoyed FLL and I do like the style of it, but it really ramps up from FLL with the first 10 weeks and then goes on to cover things I have never seen before.  Mind you, I am no grammar person.  However, it is teacher-intensive, as the other poster put it, and I find I need to help my kids quite a lot with the exercises. Also, we are the guinea pigs for this--it's a first edition. There are errors. So keep that in mind when choosing.  

ETA1: Fix-It has a placement test here: https://iew.com/sites/default/files/page/fileattachment/Fix_It_Placement_Test.pdf

We also have used AAS from the beginning, and I still enjoy it. I think the key is to not do more than 10 minutes a day. My oldest made it through all seven levels in less than six years doing 10 minutes a day, four days a week. He is more of a natural speller. My youngest is not as much of a speller and will finish in 6th grade next year at his current pace.  

ETA2: The Attached Mama said that Junior Analytical Grammar is only 11 weeks, however there is also a second book--Junior Analytical Grammar--Mechanics which you could use and is another 11 weeks.   

Also, since you have five kids, pay close attention to the copy policy on these books.  I believe Analytical Grammar has a no copies ever policy. IEW allows copies within your family (including for the writing and grammar). Usually WTM allows copies within your family too, at least they did for Grammar for the WTM.  

ETA3: Please see my other comment on the prior post about IEW's return policy. It really benefits you to buy directly from them if you are going to buy new. 

[TheAttachedMama]

On 5/27/2018 at 8:16 PM, Smiles said:

I have a question hope you all don't mind. I'm not great at writing and I find it hard to teach, so would I absolutely need the Teaching Writing Style and Structure dvds? Also my son will be 11 and in 5 th grade is it ok if I start with level A? He has done half of FLL 4 and part of WWE 3, I stopped because he started getting upset every time I pulled WWE out. The narrations he did great at but the dictation is hard for him. Honestly I would struggle with the dictations! I hope I don't upset anyone by asking. Maybe I should have started another thread. Thank you

 

The official answer from IEW:  Yes, you need the TWSS dvds.    (That is the ideal.)

Unofficially, I was able to get by without them.    I did watch the shorter TWSS overview DVD.  (I believe this is included in the SWI package now.  ??)     And I did watch the SWI DVDs with my children.   I paid close attention to how Mr. Pudewa taught the material, and then I tried to do the same thing with the extra practice material.   I also found the IEW podcasts to be really helpful too.   They have an older series of podcasts where they spend an episode of each of the IEW units.   They give an overview of the unit and talk about common problems, common instructional mistakes, etc.   I tried to listen to these before each new unit so I could be prepared.

I also relied on the IEW forum when I had a problem or question.   They are very quick to respond and very helpful!   

[MusicMama]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate all of the thoughtful replies. ? I think I will start slow and begin with the level A. I'm excited to be learning along with my daughter; I need a refresher course myself!