BJU Fundamentals through high school math

[kristin0713]

I haven't found a lot of feedback on this.  Please tell me what you liked and what you didn't about BJU 7th through high school math, especially if you used more than one year. 

Also, does it ever go on sale? I'm not looking to do the video course yet, but maybe for high school.

[PeterPan]

Are you planning to use updated versions or old versions. I have the new versions (new, haha, from the last 4-5 years) that I got to use with my dd. We ended up using some of what I bought and not others. The BJU upper level math, in the newest editions, has really strong word problems for their most challenging problems and very thorough problem solving sets. It's just thorough. For us it was best done together. I was taught on Dolciani in school, so to me BJU seems influenced by Dolciani. It doesn't have as many word problems as Foerster. I can imagine a student doing Foerster independently but I can't imagine a student doing BJU independently. Maybe I just don't have enough imagination, lol. For us, it was best done together. I really, really enjoy doing it together because it just really makes them think. It has the whole range of problems you need to address the students who are really for more challenge, so there's just a lot there where you can get into what Dolciani always put as C level problems and make them think. 

If you want a more get'er done math or want something more independent, move over to MUS. My ds' autism really got in the way of our high school stuff the last few years with my dd, and I needed her to be independent. I moved her over to MUS, which I know is much maligned by some people who say your dc's mathematical brain will rot. Fine, whatever. her ACT scores went up with it and it was fine. It taught her good skills about how to work independently, how to self-monitor to realize if she was comprehending, how to choose to go back and redo a lesson if you weren't comprehending. Those are good skills too. 

If you're going to be available to work with your student and the student is at least an average student, I think you'll have a fine experience with the BJU math. If you're looking for used copies, I probably have my stack downstairs that I could sell you with a nice big box. My ds has SLDs in basically everything and functions multiple years behind, so who knows what he'll need if he ever gets there. I have the math 7, algebra 1, algebra 2, all new/current editions (afaik, I could check or give you pics) with tms, supplements, etc., and I have the older edition geometry. Their geometry tended to change very little, so I went with the old edition. We did it together with a whiteboard, doing lots of proofs, and it was a good experience. I think something like MUS could have been very pragmatic, and like I said that was about the end of me being able to carve time to work with her because things were falling apart with his autism. If you want those things, pm me.

[Dudley]

I have used fundamentals , pre algebra and algebra 1, then my kids go to public school. 

i would agree that you should have at least an average math student and be willing to work with them. 

I have really appreciated the thoroughness as well. I feel the explanations in the text are very adequate to understand the concept, and the example problems are very helpful. I feel it is important to walk the student through the explanation because sometimes important information is in a tiny one sentence paragraph between examples that the average student will skip over.

the review sections at the end of each lesson are well planned for remembering what you have learned and preparing for the next section . In the levels I used I wouldn’t have said the word problems were especially challenging, they seem to practice certain types of problems,  but I’m also coming from Singapore with very challenging word problems l. I guess I have  to admit that there are challenging word problems. They  were in the dominion in science section that we never had the time/energy to tackle. Which is a shame because I feel that is where the writer really shares his love for math and how it impacts all areas of our life.

we generally did the odds and it would take between 30min and an hour. For one child who struggles more in math, on some sections we went back the next day and did evens if The TG told me it was an important concept.  One kid was stronger in math and he did more C problems. 

In the algebra text the teaching on sequences was broken up to like 1 concept per chapter, I wish they would just cover the topic all at once. I also didn’t particularly like they way they taught one kind of factoring, I just taught the box method instead in that section that I learned from Jacobs algebra. 

Other than those two tiny annoyances I LOVE bju math for these levels. Foundations was a difficult shift from Singapore as far as workload, not writing in the book and lessons were much  longer, but after those adjustments math became my daughters favorite subject.

I buy used on amazon ,ebay or homeschool classifieds. TG are necessary for answers key and it tells me which sections are more optional or to spend extra time on. Ive once bought the student activities book for my daughter who really struggles to retain, it has a more extensive culmitive review for each chapter so I could see better what wasn’t sticking. 

 

[kristin0713]

These replies are helpful, thank you.  I am expecting that whatever math she does, I will have to help her.  She is a good student but it takes her a lot of practice to learn new math concepts.  She has no patience for the "why" and just wants to know the "how" and to practice it.  I do have a concern about moving her to a textbook instead of a workbook.  Right now I am between BJU and CLE, but I would have to put her in CLE 600 if we go that route. 

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, kristin0713 said:

These replies are helpful, thank you.  I am expecting that whatever math she does, I will have to help her.  She is a good student but it takes her a lot of practice to learn new math concepts.  She has no patience for the "why" and just wants to know the "how" and to practice it.  I do have a concern about moving her to a textbook instead of a workbook.  Right now I am between BJU and CLE, but I would have to put her in CLE 600 if we go that route. 

Does CLE have a pre-algebra and high school sequence so that you could keep going? Or maybe at that point you'd move her over to Horizons? 

It doesn't sound like BJU is a good fit. Your only reservation about CLE seems to be that you'd have to place her back a level from what you expected, but I'm not sure she'd do so well in BJU7 (current edition) if that's the case either. BJU had a pretty significant jump in the materials with the new editions. Anything you might have heard about BJU being behind, blah blah, is definitely not true. I'm looking at the CLE placement test and trying to compare that to what I remember of the BJU 7. The stuff on the placement test seems pretty on-level to me. You'd want her to be passing the 600 level CLE test and be ready to go into the 700 level material to be roughly equivalent to the BJU math 7. That would be a smooth placement.

For what you're describing, MUS would also work. It has worktexts they can write in and clear instruction, no frills, with built in review. I don't have an opinion on CLE vs. MUS vs. Horizons (assuming horizons has enough levels now). If she has done CLE in the past and liked it, then you could continue. It's better to place appropriately and work every day consistently. You'll make more progress that way than if you jump. 

[kristin0713]

8 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

What has she used up to this point? The online courses do go on sale in December but so not include books. I think if you order through a HomeWorks consultant, you can get a little discount. At conventions, it is 25% off everything.

 HTH!

Nice! That will help! We've done mostly Singapore and Math Mammoth but this past year she used Math Lessons for a Living Education Level 6. She tried MM 6 and it was just too hard so we switched. 5th grade was a wash because she was very ill and we spent the summer prior to 6th solidifying fractions without a specific curriculum.

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Does CLE have a pre-algebra and high school sequence so that you could keep going? Or maybe at that point you'd move her over to Horizons? 

 It doesn't sound like BJU is a good fit. Your only reservation about CLE seems to be that you'd have to place her back a level from what you expected, but I'm not sure she'd do so well in BJU7 (current edition) if that's the case either. BJU had a pretty significant jump in the materials with the new editions. Anything you might have heard about BJU being behind, blah blah, is definitely not true. I'm looking at the CLE placement test and trying to compare that to what I remember of the BJU 7. The stuff on the placement test seems pretty on-level to me. You'd want her to be passing the 600 level CLE test and be ready to go into the 700 level material to be roughly equivalent to the BJU math 7. That would be a smooth placement.

CLE has through Algebra 1 in the same format as their 600, 700, 800. She knows multiplication and division solid through the 12's, she's great at long division except for silly mistakes, can do all operations with fractions and decimals pretty well but sometimes forgets a rule, can switch between a fraction/decimal/percent but needs more practice with that.  Her knowledge of geometry is weak and CLE does a lot of that over the years. She hasn't had much pre-algebra at all--order of operations, solving for y, simplifying equations. But her math computation is really very good. She just now learned about integers/negative numbers at the end of MLFLE and there is a very brief section on pre-pre-algebra.  Looking at the scope and sequence in the table of contents of BJU, it seems to be exactly what she needs to work on next year and then follow with a year of pre-algebra. CLE 600 is a huge mix of stuff she knows cold and stuff she hasn't seen at all (like classifying triangles by sides) and then there are still two more levels before Algebra 1. BJU 7 really looks to  be a good mix of reviewing the harder concepts (which will be helpful) and introducing things she hasn't done. I have always been turned off to MUS but I will look at it at the convention next week. I don't want to go with Horizons pre-algebra so I don't want to switch to that.  It would be great to put her in something now that she can stay with through Algebra 1. Thanks so much for your reply! 

 

[PeterPan]

The geometry won't matter for placement. Will you get to see the BJU stuff at the convention next week? That will help you sort it out. I'm looking at the samples for that MLfLE, and MUS would be a natural slide from there. You might do the MUS placement test, just so you know if she can go directly into their pre-algebra. If she does, then you know at least what you're looking at. Also, I'm not up on MLfLE, but is there a product they recommend for follow-up? Masterbooks is selling MLfLE through 6 and then a Katherine Loop text Principles of Mathematics. If you need a math 7 book that continues nicely with what you were used to (assuming MLfLE was working well), that might be a choice. Then you could continue that sequence or slide over to MUS. I'm just thinking you don't want to go to MUS if you're not placing into their pre-algebra text yet because their sequence is topical, non-traditional. 

If you found MM6 hard then you may find the current editions of the BJU math to be pretty challenging too. It's good stuff, but you're right that sometimes the hardest text isn't the best way to get the student where they're going. They spend so much time slogging through challenging problems that they come away not catching the basics. I've seen it happen with friends enough that I think you're wise to find that middle ground. Since you're going to the convention, you'll get to sort it out in person. :)

[kristin0713]

Yes, I'll get to see it all next week.  I have previewed Principals of Mathematics and I don't like it at all.  There is soooo much reading and not enough skills practice. The reading would drive her crazy and she needs more consistent drill and practice.  I just looked at the MUS placement and she would be fine in pre-algebra, but I'm just not inclined to go with that program. I will take a look at everything, thanks. 

[PeterPan]

You might look at the MUS supplement/challenge/honors workbooks. They're not exactly the Dominion math problems in the BJU (which I really liked having her do!), but still they're good stuff. 

[jer2911mom]

We tried BJU Pre-Algebra this year (parent-led, not DL), and ended up having to ditch it in November.  I was having my dd do the honors assignments as given in the TM, but it was taking us 2-3 hours a day and was just too much.  In hindsight, I should have tried cutting out all of the level C problems for awhile, and that might have helped some.  They are very good but very time-consuming.  The other issue was that the tests have some problems that are unlike anything they have worked in their lessons (even doing the honors problems!).  I spoke with BJU about this and found out that their DL tests are different than the paper tests they sell, and are much more reasonable.  The tests would often leave my diligent dd in tears because of questions on things she had not seen before, even though she had studied carefully.  They just required the assimilation of too many new topics at once in a way they had not done before.  I had to turn those problems into extra credit, but it was hard sorting through every test to figure out what was realistic and what wasn't.  I spoke with one of the DL teachers at convention, and he recommended using the chapter review for the test, possibly doing half as the review and the other half as the test.  My dd did well on the reviews, so in hindsight I kind of wish we had gone that route.  The other issue was that the lessons were really long, covering too many topics at once.  I do feel like BJU is very thorough and very conceptual, and I appreciate that they use proper terminology, but there was just too much packed into each lesson.  It wore us out.  We'd think we were about done, turn the page, and there would be 4 more topics to cover.  Then all the problems to do.  The chapters were so full that my older dd would get through and not remember what was covered in the first part of the chapter, even with the little bit of daily review each day.  I realize now that the TM assignments for the honors and standard levels are not realistic, but I trusted BJU to tell me what was appropriate.  I felt misled in general as a first-time homeschool pre-algebra teacher.  I was trusting BJU to give me guidance, and it really led to a frustrating year.  I do think the program is strong, and that it covers many more topics than are typically covered in a pre-algebra program, probably because BJU only goes to Pre-Calculus, but I think it's important to go into it knowing all of this.  I still might consider it for my younger dd, who seems to have more of a math bent and not need as much review, but only with an extreme amount of modification. 

Hope this helps!
Kathy

[jer2911mom]

On 5/22/2018 at 8:03 AM, PeterPan said:

If you found MM6 hard then you may find the current editions of the BJU math to be pretty challenging too. It's good stuff, but you're right that sometimes the hardest text isn't the best way to get the student where they're going. They spend so much time slogging through challenging problems that they come away not catching the basics. I've seen it happen with friends enough that I think you're wise to find that middle ground. Since you're going to the convention, you'll get to sort it out in person. ?

 

I agree with this.  With the BJU Pre-Algebra, my dd was actually rising to the challenge of the level C problems much better than I expected, but I felt like it was at the risk of missing the foundation.  BJU can come in at such a high level and be so technical sometimes that there is a real risk of missing the foundation if you aren't careful.

[kristin0713]

I ended up going with CLE 700, and the three skills development workbooks that they offer for filling gaps that students often have when switching from other programs.  I'm confident that it will be a great fit for her.  Thanks ?