IEW and Fix it! Is it enough for Grammar/Composition

[michaeljenn]

I have used IEW in the past, but never really used it to its full potential.  I ended up dropping it and going with a traditional LA program.  I have used Christian Light LA for grades 3-7, and am now using Bob Jones for grades 2, 5 and 8.  I like both of those programs, but when it is time for them to write something in history or science or for any other subject, I get blank faces.  They literally don't know what to do.  Also,  I am not finding that their grammar exercises are transferring over into their writing.  I feel like doing worksheet after worksheet for grammar is a total waste of time.  Yes, they do great on the worksheets, but they truly are not "getting" it.  My 7th grade daughter took WWS 1 online last year and it was like she never took it.  She is having a hard time writing papers! UGH....

 

 I have TWSS and SWI A and several themed based programs sitting on my shelf.  I am considering doing a theme based program with my 2nd grader, SWI A with my 5th grader and then purchasing SWI B for my 8th grader.

 

My question is... will doing IEW and Fix it! consistently truly be enough.  I don't know why I am having a hard time moving away from my traditional methods, but they are clearly not working.  If I decided to go with IEW and Fix it!, it would be for the long haul... meaning we will continue this method until graduation.

 

Thoughts? Advice?

[Insertcreativenamehere]

We used CLE LA for years, too, and are now using Fix-It and it is going well. It's not necessary to do heavy-duty grammar every year, in my opinion. We may go a different direction in the future, but for now, I like how Fix-It puts grammar in the context of writing and editing.

 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[OneStepAtATime]

That is a very hard question to answer.

 

For my own kids so far it has absolutely been the better fit but we are not all the way through and out the other end.  It also depends on how comfortable you are taking the long view and your willingness and ability to adapt a program to meet the needs of your individual children.

 

For example, DD did SWI-B but I also watched TWSS to give myself a better understanding.  By itself DD was not grasping all of the concepts in a way that really made sense to her, at least not at first.  We got a friend to join in and we did the initial lesson of each concept collaboratively on a dry erase board.  We did the KWO outline together, we did the writing together, etc.  Then I had the kids revise their paper separately.  We did that for many lessons.  She and her friend had always struggled with writing so she needed a LOT of time and scaffolding and practice.  Doing it collaboratively helped SO MUCH with internalizing what was being required of her.

 

Fast forward and now she is doing parts of SWI-C specifically to solidify her ability to complete a 5 paragraph essay.  This is a weak area for her.  Again, we are doing it collaboratively (just the two of us, not her friend or her brother) until it starts to gel in her head.  

 

Fix-it pairs beautifully with IEW SWI because they use mostly the same terms and present many things in a similar fashion (although they don't have to be used together).  Fix-It is a full grammar program (the new one is) but it is NOT a grammar program that makes grammar the be all and end all of existence.  If you want diagramming, this isn't for you.  If  you want lots and lots and lots of in depth daily grammar instruction and practice, this is not it.  This program expects a child to absorb the information over time, through long term exposure and practice in short sessions, until things really sink in and internalize.  If you want grammar to be a tool that can be used while writing, and you want it introduced in a gentle way, in short segments over time, without spending copious daily amounts of time doing it, this is your program.

 

What has worked well here for Fix-it:

1. Except for the very beginning trying to get the notebooks set up, there is virtually NO prep each day.  Just skim the week's concept the night before and you are ready to go.  I keep the TM, the kid's notebooks, a pouch of writing instruments, and our large print dictionary in the same spot on our rolling cart so we all just grab and go.  We put it all away again when we are done.
2. The lessons are short, especially with Level 1.  One sentence a day, 4 days a week.  Much less push back from the kids and they also can focus harder on that one sentence instead of trying to rush through longer lessons so they aren't doing grammar all day.
3. Concepts are introduced in small pieces, gently, and then practiced over a long time.  New concepts are rolled in with older ones, building a kind of grammar tapestry as they go.
4. Reference cards are to be used while the student practices these concepts.  This is not cheating.  This is helping the child learn the material through actual use instead of relying on rote memorization.  Eventually the terms and the concepts tied to those terms become automatic and they no longer need the reference cards but the program does not assume automaticity after just a month or two of practice.  This is especially helpful for children with low working memory and for those that find writing challenging.  They can use their brains for the actual lesson, instead of frantically trying to remember, translate and apply defined terms.
5. The TM has a lot of additional information so especially on the first day I sit with my kids, they do the sentence, and we discuss and correct as we go.  The lesson is quick, I don't have to take the time to go back and correct later, I don't have to worry so much that they have misunderstood and are misapplying concepts and discussion in the moment has opened up a lot of interesting and helpful questions that we have delved deeper to answer.  They remember better that way.  Plus, once the lesson is over we can ALL walk away and not have to worry about it again until the next day.
6. They are applying what they learned in their writing in other areas but we have the cards as reference if they get stuck.
7. It is easily sped up or slowed down.  If you hit an area the kids are really grasping and don't need so much time internalizing, double the lessons.  Or even do 3-4 lessons a day.  Slow down again when you hit harder areas that need more time to percolate.  
8. It can be adapted to the needs of individual children.  For example: DD likes the copywork and does it in cursive with a pencil in her notebook.  DS has dysgraphia so he either skips the copywork if he has already had to write that day or he copies it on a dry erase board or he types it.   Also, they both struggled a bit with looking up words alphabetically, so we got a big print dictionary and they had to look the words up in that instead of on the computer or through their electronic dictionaries.  It helped tremendously with really getting a better understanding of alphabetization at a deeper level.  Also, the dictionary might have many different definitions for the same word.  They had to reread the sentence and sometimes the passage to understand the specific meaning used in that particular sentence.  That helped also with really understanding the meaning of words and how those words are used in context.  Plus, both kids prefer to do the definitions at the end of the week so day 1-4 is sentences/copywork and they incorporate a 5th day to look up and write down definitions.  It works better for them.

The bottom line, though, is that I have had to work collaboratively with my kids for a lot longer than I think many parents expect.  A lot of parents want and expect independence in writing pretty quickly but many kids do not learn how to be truly independent writers until they have had a lot of years of experience writing and a lot of support doing it.  Just depends on the child. 

 

Also, while IEW and Fix-It have worked better than anything else we have tried, my kids don't learn well in a vacuum.  DS especially needs interaction to learn and DD, while she needs quiet and space to write once she gets a concept, needs lots of examples and discussion and collaboration to grasp the concept in the first place.  So we do a lot of interaction and discussion and modeling.  IEW is brilliant, IMHO, at providing a solid scaffolding/modeling scenario for those who need it but just as with anything else the person helping the student learn is going to need to be flexible and willing to adapt the program to meet the needs of their individual children as well as willing to work alongside them when they need the extra scaffolding.  I think a lot of kids don't really learn to write well without a great deal of support and practice and scaffolding and consistency over time.

Edited October 28, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[SparklyUnicorn]

Fix It, IMO, is good for review.  IEW is a writing program first and foremost.  I think IEW is great, but if you need extra work in grammar, I'd choose something specifically for grammar. 

 

The "skills not transferring to the writing exercises" thing is pretty normal though.  It's an ongoing process that does often take a lot of time to all fall into place.

 

 

[michaeljenn]

That is a very hard question to answer.

 

For my own kids so far it has absolutely been the better fit but we are not all the way through and out the other end.  It also depends on how comfortable you are taking the long view and your willingness and ability to adapt a program to meet the needs of your individual children.

 

For example, DD did SWI-B but I also watched TWSS to give myself a better understanding.  By itself DD was not grasping all of the concepts in a way that really made sense to her, at least not at first.  We got a friend to join in and we did the initial lesson of each concept collaboratively on a dry erase board.  We did the KWO outline together, we did the writing together, etc.  Then I had the kids revise their paper separately.  We did that for many lessons.  She and her friend had always struggled with writing so she needed a LOT of time and scaffolding and practice.  Doing it collaboratively helped SO MUCH with internalizing what was being required of her.

 

Fast forward and now she is doing parts of SWI-C specifically to solidify her ability to complete a 5 paragraph essay.  This is a weak area for her.  Again, we are doing it collaboratively (just the two of us, not her friend or her brother) until it starts to gel in her head.  

 

Fix-it pairs beautifully with IEW SWI because they use mostly the same terms and present many things in a similar fashion (although they don't have to be used together).  Fix-It is a full grammar program (the new one is) but it is NOT a grammar program that makes grammar the be all and end all of existence.  If you want diagramming, this isn't not for you.  If  you want lots and lots and lots of in depth daily grammar instruction and practice, this is not it.  This program expects a child to absorb the information over time, through long term exposure and practice in short sessions, until things really sink in and internalize.  If you want grammar to be a tool that can be used while writing, and you want it introduced in a gentle way, in short segments over time, without spending copious daily amounts of time doing it, this is your program.

 

What has worked well here for Fix-it:

1. Except for the very beginning trying to get the notebooks set up, there is virtually NO prep each day.  Just skim the week's concept the night before and you are ready to go.  I keep the TM, the kid's notebooks, a pouch of writing instruments, and our large print dictionary in the same spot on our rolling cart so we all just grab and go.  We put it all away again when we are done.
2. The lessons are short, especially with Level 1.  One sentence a day, 4 days a week.  Much less push back from the kids and they also can focus harder on that one sentence instead of trying to rush through longer lessons so they aren't doing grammar all day.
3. Concepts are introduced in small pieces, gently, and then practiced over a long time.  New concepts are rolled in with older ones, building a kind of grammar tapestry as they go.
4. Reference cards are to be used while the student practices these concepts.  This is not cheating.  This is helping the child learn the material through actual use instead of relying on rote memorization.  Eventually the terms and the concepts tied to those terms become automatic and they no longer need the reference cards but the program does not assume automaticity after just a month or two of practice.  This is especially helpful for children with low working memory and for those that find writing challenging.  They can use their brains for the actual lesson, instead of frantically trying to remember, translate and apply defined terms.
5. The TM has a lot of additional information so especially on the first day I sit with my kids, they do the sentence, and we discuss and correct as we go.  The lesson is quick, I don't have to take the time to go back and correct later, I don't have to worry so much that they have misunderstood and are misapplying concepts and discussion in the moment has opened up a lot of interesting and helpful questions that we have delved deeper to answer.  They remember better that way.  Plus, once the lesson is over we can ALL walk away and not have to worry about it again until the next day.
6. They are applying what they learned in their writing in other areas but we have the cards as reference if they get stuck.
7. It is easily sped up or slowed down.  If you hit an area the kids are really grasping and don't need so much time internalizing, double the lessons.  Or even do 3-4 lessons a day.  Slow down again when you hit harder areas that need more time to percolate.  
8. It can be adapted to the needs of individual children.  For example: DD likes the copywork and does it in cursive with a pencil in her notebook.  DS has dysgraphia so he either skips the copywork if he has already had to write that day or he copies it on a dry erase board or he types it.   Also, they both struggled a bit with looking up words alphabetically, so we got a big print dictionary and they had to look the words up in that instead of on the computer or through their electronic dictionaries.  It helped tremendously with really getting a better understanding of alphabetization at a deeper level.  Also, the dictionary might have many different definitions for the same word.  They had to reread the sentence and sometimes the passage to understand the specific meaning used in that particular sentence.  That helped also with really understanding the meaning of words and how those words are used in context.  Plus, both kids prefer to do the definitions at the end of the week so day 1-4 is sentences/copywork and they incorporate a 5th day to look up and write down definitions.  It works better for them.

The bottom line, though, is that I have had to work collaboratively with my kids for a lot longer than I think many parents expect.  A lot of parents want and expect independence in writing pretty quickly but many kids do not learn how to be truly independent writers until they have had a lot of years of experience writing and a lot of support doing it.  Just depends on the child. 

 

Also, while IEW and Fix-It have worked better than anything else we have tried, my kids don't learn well in a vacuum.  DS especially needs interaction to learn and DD, while she needs quiet and space to write once she gets a concept, needs lots of examples and discussion and collaboration to grasp the concept in the first place.  So we do a lot of interaction and discussion and modeling.  IEW is brilliant, IMHO, at providing a solid scaffolding/modeling scenario for those who need it but just as with anything else the person helping the student learn is going to need to be flexible and willing to adapt the program to meet the needs of their individual children as well as willing to work alongside them when they need the extra scaffolding.  I think a lot of kids don't really learn to write well without a great deal of support and practice and scaffolding and consistency over time.

 

 

Thank you so much for your reply.. the highlighted portion is me... I tend to expect them to get it the first time around.  I think that is the reason we put IEW away the first time.  I am starting to watch all the TWSS dvd's again and I am realizing that I was the problem.  It wasn't IEW and it wasn't my children, it was ME not taking the time to truly work with them.  :(   I have listened to several of Andrew's podcasts and when he says "you can't help too much" it really struck home with me.  He is so right.  They won't need you there forever, but it is ok to help as much as needed until they get it.   

 

As for grammar goals.... I want my kids to know enough grammar to produce good writing.  I do not think most of the grammar in grammar books are honestly beneficial.  

 

Thank you again!  This helped me so much!

[OneStepAtATime]

I have used IEW in the past, but never really used it to its full potential.  I ended up dropping it and going with a traditional LA program.  I have used Christian Light LA for grades 3-7, and am now using Bob Jones for grades 2, 5 and 8.  I like both of those programs, but when it is time for them to write something in history or science or for any other subject, I get blank faces.  They literally don't know what to do.  Also,  I am not finding that their grammar exercises are transferring over into their writing.  I feel like doing worksheet after worksheet for grammar is a total waste of time.  Yes, they do great on the worksheets, but they truly are not "getting" it.  My 7th grade daughter took WWS 1 online last year and it was like she never took it.  She is having a hard time writing papers! UGH....

 

 I have TWSS and SWI A and several themed based programs sitting on my shelf.  I am considering doing a theme based program with my 2nd grader, SWI A with my 5th grader and then purchasing SWI B for my 8th grader.

 

My question is... will doing IEW and Fix it! consistently truly be enough.  I don't know why I am having a hard time moving away from my traditional methods, but they are clearly not working.  If I decided to go with IEW and Fix it!, it would be for the long haul... meaning we will continue this method until graduation.

 

Thoughts? Advice?

FWIW, you might be able to combine your 5th and 8th grader using SWI-B.  I know you already own SWI-A and you might actually be able to use that with both instead but you would probably have to provide more advanced passages for your 8th grader since they will be prepping for High School.  That's why I was thinking that if you are already planning to purchase SWI-B, maybe just use that one with both kids.  If there is a SWI-B passage that you think might be too intense for the 5th grader you could replace it with the equivalent passage from SWI-A but for the most part you could keep them in the same one.  It is basically the same system.  SWI-C is really for High School specifically but IIRC SWI-A and SWI-B are virtually identical except for the passage selections.  That might make prep work a lot easier if they were both using SWI-B.

 

You could also combine the 5th and the 8th grader for Fix-It but considering how much grammar the 8th grader has already had Book 1 is going to be review.  Probably for the 5th grader too.  Of course, since they seem to be struggling to apply what they have already learned then review in a different context, with more real life literature application, may help their writing quite a bit. 

 

If the 8th grader and the 5th grader both seem to be grasping things quickly you could compress Fix It Book 1.  Do two sentences a day.  They would then be completing 2 weeks worth of lessons every week, still keeping to a 4 day a week schedule.  Keep going at that pace until you reach a level where they need to slow down.  They might be able to get through Book 1 and 2 in one year if it goes smoothly.  Book 3 includes marking multiple sentences a day.  It is a bit harder to have the time to accelerate by that level.

 

If you buy just the TM, you get access to the Student workbooks for free as a pdf.  I recommend this option as long as you don't mind taking the time to print the Student books out.  I liked it better this way because if a page were messed up we could just print another one.  If we wanted to redo a week because we really got off track I could easily print a replacement page.  I think it helped the kids to be helping to assemble and organize their notebooks instead of it being handed to them.  We could add in sections of things such as DD's sketches of the story.  You can use the same program with multiple students without having to purchase multiple student books.  and so on...

 

Make sure you take time ahead of time to print everything out including the reference cards.  It will take time to cut up the cards.  I had them in little flash card files for ease of use.  Then have the kids help you assemble the notebooks.  I used erasable tab dividers.  It will probably also help a lot to read through the lesson break down at the back of the TM.  It helps you understand the pacing and layout.  There are built in review weeks so on those weeks the kids may be able to do the lessons without you.  Just make sure to check their work afterwards.

[kiwik]

One Step. Do you have to buy directly from IEW to get the PDF student guide?

[michaeljenn]

The link to the student guides are contained in the Teacher's Manuals for both Fix it! and the Theme Based programs.  Does that answer your question?

[kiwik]

The link to the student guides are contained in the Teacher's Manuals for both Fix it! and the Theme Based programs. Does that answer your question?

Yes thanks.

[OneStepAtATime]

One Step. Do you have to buy directly from IEW to get the PDF student guide?

I would buy from them so that you can have access to their money back guarantee. Also if u buy through them they save your PDFs so if something happens to your computer you can still get another copy from their website.