Can anyone talk with me about CC...particularly Challenge A?

[ByGrace3]

I am at a point in homeschooling where I was/am considering starting a classical co-op. Basically the Great Conversation (history/theology/literature), logic, worldview/apologetics, science...(maybe a schole group?) I think dd would thrive with some healthy peer nudging to do her best. And these conversations would be more fun to do in a group.

 

Unfortunately most of the "classical" homeschoolers around here are CC families. So I began thinking, maybe instead of reinventing the wheel and maybe or maybe not finding other local families who are interested, perhaps we should look into CC.

 

I had looked into it once upon a time, but older dd was little and I didn't feel the need to pursue it then. Even still, Foundations is not super calling to me...Essentials seems ok, and Challenge seems even better. Not exactly what we would choose on our own, but it seems like a solid educational plan.

 

I wonder if the group aspect would be of great benefit for her?

 

Can we just jump into Challenge? She will be 12 in June. We have always homeschooled classically so I think academically she should be on par?

 

Worth it? Not?

 

Talk me into...or out of it.

[...................]

I think if you need the community, you should go visit now before the year is over.  See what the feel for the community is like. Humans are social beings and we desire and need community. If that's the only thing cooking in your area, it is worth checking into.  In the past I have made mistakes with my kids because things weren't ever "good enough" for us ...after a few years of realizing they had missed out on wonderful social opportunities (and I could have adjusted the opportunities to fit us!), I realized my ideal doesn't exist.  

 

The curriculum isn't super challenging in any area except Latin.  The math is at minimum a one year behind our state standards, and the Science is one to two years behind depending on future major.  Here, STEM oriented kids take Physical Science in 7th and CC has them taking Physical Science in 9th.  My kids read the 12th grade books in 6 and 7th grade. CC does not allow your student to advance a level, and has very strict age requirements.  I would look carefully into that. If your kids are pretty much average to a little above learners but you do Classical education since you believe in it, CC could be awesome for them.

 

If your kids are asynchronous, or gifted, they would find it very stifling and probably you'd end up tweaking.  If your kids have LD's they might find certain aspects of it challenging and have a hard time keeping up.  

 

I keep looking into it over and over for my kids and my son is literally years ahead of their suggested curriculum in every subject.  My daughter is years ahead in some areas, but would really struggle with Latin due to her Dyslexia.  It just would not fit no matter how much I wanted or didn't want it to!   But thankfully by God's grace we have two huge co-ops here that are fun, awesome, and allow you to choose individual classes so we can still tailor their education exactly to their needs, which was why we started homeschooling in the first place! 

 

 

 

[ByGrace3]

I think if you need the community, you should go visit now before the year is over. See what the feel for the community is like. Humans are social beings and we desire and need community. If that's the only thing cooking in your area, it is worth checking into. In the past I have made mistakes with my kids because things weren't ever "good enough" for us ...after a few years of realizing they had missed out on wonderful social opportunities (and I could have adjusted the opportunities to fit us!), I realized my ideal doesn't exist.

 

The curriculum isn't super challenging in any area except Latin. The math is at minimum a one year behind our state standards, and the Science is one to two years behind depending on future major. Here, STEM oriented kids take Physical Science in 7th and CC has them taking Physical Science in 9th. My kids read the 12th grade books in 6 and 7th grade. CC does not allow your student to advance a level, and has very strict age requirements. I would look carefully into that. If your kids are pretty much average to a little above learners but you do Classical education since you believe in it, CC could be awesome for them.

 

If your kids are asynchronous, or gifted, they would find it very stifling and probably you'd end up tweaking. If your kids have LD's they might find certain aspects of it challenging and have a hard time keeping up.

 

I keep looking into it over and over for my kids and my son is literally years ahead of their suggested curriculum in every subject. My daughter is years ahead in some areas, but would really struggle with Latin due to her Dyslexia. It just would not fit no matter how much I wanted or didn't want it to! But thankfully by God's grace we have two huge co-ops here that are fun, awesome, and allow you to choose individual classes so we can still tailor their education exactly to their needs, which was why we started homeschooling in the first place!

Thank you! The only other co-ops in our area are mostly elective driven. Not conducive with our goals. I did notice the math being behind. My dd will be in prealgebra next year for 7th and solidly prepared for it after MM 1-6. How involved is the math? The website made it seem that it was supplemental and drill like and you could choose your own math...is that not accurate?

 

Dd has not done Latin, I was thinking of adding it either next year or 8th. It is important to me that dd be fluent in Spanish before she graduate so we have spent time there instead. Would this be a major issue?

 

I would say dd is slightly above average but not super gifted. She is super diligent. Works hard, and does well.

[2_girls_mommy]

I agree with Calming Tea. I have looked into it multiple times too, but have given up the idea based on some of the things she says. They can't jump up a level. There is one teacher who is trained to do the teaching in all areas. (I know I can teach a group in one area well, not all...) The kids I have met really seem to have struggled because of this. They aren't really getting the latin. They get through the bookwork, but just enough to... get through the bookwork. None of it stays with them. They aren't really getting "taught" it. 

 

It is very expensive for what you get. We have much better luck in a co-op, even one that is mostly elective driven. My kids do have a science class with a great science teacher at our co-op, and I offer latin. Few kids take it as serious as mine in the Latin and go as far as mine do, but they start out strong with a big class for a couple of years and get a strong foundation. By the time they get to Third Form, they have both been down to a class of 3 or 4 including themselves, but that's ok. It is still enough to keep them motivated to stay with their class.  Sometimes I do a little Spanish with them up there too.

 

I bring the classical that I can to our group. I do the latin and have offered latin club and other meet ups at my house for the kids that want to study for NLEs with us. But we get the social, the field trips, the parties, the PE, art, and music with our group. I make it work for us. My high schooler pretty much had nothing but her lab science class at co-op this year. The rest were electives. They did a semester of health. Ok, that was good. The high schooler have done a newsletter for the group. That is good. Extra writing and an extra curricular to list on her transcript. They did a book hour where a mom read aloud to them. Nothing wrong with that. They had a PE hour where they did some games and activities and socializing.  Truly that is ok with me. She does 4 days a week of heavy academics. And the science is awesome. All of her former latin classmates have not gone as far as she, so this was the first year she didn't have latin there. But it has worked out. She studied it at home, plus some of the lower class still came for latin club to study for exams, so she still had the group.  Next year I am going to do history for the whole group. My kids will expand on it my way at home, but there will be group projects and assignments and presentations with the group. We have done history at co-op in the past that way, and it works out really well.

 

We go to another co-op a couple times a month for piano lessons and preschool for my toddler. The older kids when not in piano just take their own books and work there which works out for us. 

 

I just do the core of our classical work at home. And they get to discuss what they do at co-op there. 

[...................]

Why would an elective-driven co-op not meet goals?  Since people have their own needs and ideas for what to do for their main course work, elective co-ops really work out.  They provide social time, seasonal parties and gatherings, opportunities to meet people, and you get a lot of moms teaching in their own chosen fields or hobbies, so they are more expert than the tutors you'll get at CC.  You'll get a mom great at sewing teaching sewing, a former mom PE teacher teaching gym class, maybe a dad doing computer programming, etc...

 

 

[2_girls_mommy]

Why would an elective-driven co-op not meet goals?  Since people have their own needs and ideas for what to do for their main course work, elective co-ops really work out.  They provide social time, seasonal parties and gatherings, opportunities to meet people, and you get a lot of moms teaching in their own chosen fields or hobbies, so they are more expert than the tutors you'll get at CC.  You'll get a mom great at sewing teaching sewing, a former mom PE teacher teaching gym class, maybe a dad doing computer programming, etc...

This is my experience. When CC tried to recruit me to teach, and I realized it wasn't just latin, that I had to do everything I was like, why would they want me to teach high school science?? I don't want me to teach high school science. 

 

But at our co-op, we have people that teach what they are passionate about and motivated to do. And there have been some things my kids never would have gotten from me. We benefit from everyone's abilities.  We have a former science teacher doing science. We had another science class taught by a woman whose husband was a science teacher, and he lent the co-op his equipment for those years, and she did the same class for a couple years in a row, really perfecting it. At our other co-op we have piano lessons from a music teacher. We have an employed artist that does art. We have me who is passionate about latin and has really learned how to teach it in the lower levels. We have moms who do sewing, cooking, horses, music, different things different years.  We had a Robotics team for a couple years when a family got into it and invited others to join. We went to the state competition that year. It was awesome. At our co-op, I will work with kids who want to study for the NLEs. That is more latin than they get at CC. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by 2_girls_mommy

[ByGrace3]

Why would an elective-driven co-op not meet goals? Since people have their own needs and ideas for what to do for their main course work, elective co-ops really work out. They provide social time, seasonal parties and gatherings, opportunities to meet people, and you get a lot of moms teaching in their own chosen fields or hobbies, so they are more expert than the tutors you'll get at CC. You'll get a mom great at sewing teaching sewing, a former mom PE teacher teaching gym class, maybe a dad doing computer programming, etc...

We do a lot of this through our homeschool group. Monthly art classes at a studio, occasional sessions of Lego engineering classes, twice a month field trips, holiday parties, service projects, etc. I teach a twice a month Spanish conversation club. Dd did a sewing camp with friends last summer and will probably do it again. All my kids play sports as well-- the girls competitively. They are not lacking activities or social time.

 

As my oldest gets older, I see the benefit of that group/peer encouragement in academic areas-- like she gets currently from her online EW1 class. I guess I am thinking of something that would replace that-- the once or twice a week teaching that she would get if she took an online class. I was thinking the great conversation discussions would be so much richer with more than just us engaged. That presentations would be more meaningful if there was a group to share it with...

 

I do hear you on the teaching your strengths thing. That is a concern with CC. Perhaps why I leaned towards starting my own-- I know where my strengths are and what I can teach well....and what I would need to compliment that well. There is just a draw to something already established ...

[2_girls_mommy]

Thank you! The only other co-ops in our area are mostly elective driven. Not conducive with our goals. I did notice the math being behind. My dd will be in prealgebra next year for 7th and solidly prepared for it after MM 1-6. How involved is the math? The website made it seem that it was supplemental and drill like and you could choose your own math...is that not accurate?

 

Dd has not done Latin, I was thinking of adding it either next year or 8th. It is important to me that dd be fluent in Spanish before she graduate so we have spent time there instead. Would this be a major issue?

 

I would say dd is slightly above average but not super gifted. She is super diligent. Works hard, and does well.

It is kind of supplemental on the math and everything really. They don't really teach anything there. You pay for the curriculum from them. Then you do the lessons at home that week before they are discussed in class. So the parent still does all of the teaching, then they discuss what was done during the week in the class later. 

 

So the class should all be on the same lesson using the same curriculum in the upper levels. The whole class will have done the same lesson in Saxon, and will discuss that math. So you could do something else, but then it will be different from what they are discussing, and you will have paid for their curriculum manual that you aren't using, and you will be paying for your child to be there not doing what they are all discussing and not being taught by the paid tutor because you are teaching it at home anyway. 

 

I couldn't get past that. My dd might be in Traditional Logic II in 9th, but she would have to sit through TLI, even if she had done it the year before. She could be done with Henle I, but would not be allowed into the discussions for Henle II because that is a 10th grade class. They wouldn't be teaching her the science. She was to do it at home then go discuss it later. So nobody is teaching the lesson before they go home and do it. I have to pay, then still go home and do the initial teaching of each subject. It  didn't add up to me.  

[...................]

It sounds like your girls have plenty of quality social time and even leadership opportunities.

 

So...it really comes down to the "fit" for the academics of CC and for that, other than looking at curriculum you should visit the campus. You'll be able to see if the classmates are interacting in a way that would benefit and challenge your dd. You can visit And get a feel for the group and the kids :)

[Jazzy]

My two oldest children are in the last couple of weeks of CC Challenge A and 3.  We had done a few years of Foundations many years ago, but didn't have any prior experience at the challenge level, and we mostly fall under the category of relaxed homeschoolers.

 

Overall, Challenge was good for both of my children.

 

My oldest is very bright but has a laid back personality, so the positive peer pressure of the group setting was good for him.  He is in 10th grade so should have been in Challenge 2, but only 1 and 3 were offered on our campus.  He was already on schedule to do Saxon Advanced Math and Apologia Chemistry so I put him in Challenge 3.  Last week, I asked him what he got out of the program, and he said he enjoyed the peer interaction, he learned to push himself to complete assignments in a prescribed format on a given timeline, and he learned to prepare for and lead group discussions.  He didn't care for a few of the strands (Latin, philosophy and logic), but enjoyed other things (Shakespeare, poetry, Chemistry experiments) that may not have been as enjoyable if done at home.  Before CC, most of his friends were from his basketball team, so he enjoyed getting to know new people who have varied interests.  His tutor was very good about organizing social activities for the class.

 

My 7th grader had a great experience in Challenge A.  She is also very bright but also highly motivated and was a leader in her class.  She wrote weekly science reports that strengthened her research and writing skills.  She learned to draw different body systems from memory, did some dissections, and fell in love with biology.  She now says she wants to be a premed major.  The science portion of Challenge A was, IMO, more interesting and useful to her at this age than that simply reading a science text and doing experiments.  I had not had experience with LTOW before and found it great for teaching thinking skills.  Although the writing is highly formatted, I can see how it will lead to some excellent papers once she adds in her own style.  She learned to draw the map of the world from memory, which is something my husband and I cannot do.  She found that she LOVES Latin and wants to continue with it even when we're no longer doing CC.  She has enjoyed learning about logical fallacies and sharing that info with our family.  She has really benefited from the weekly presentations and class discussions and also from leading devotions, sharing math problems, etc.

 

Both of my children had motivated classmates and excellent tutors.  Their tutors were not experts in every subject but did a great job of preparing themselves to lead the class in projects and discussions.  The students all worked at different levels, and that gave my children a chance to see where they were average and where they excelled.

 

As a homeschool mom, I was exposed to new books and curricula that I might not have otherwise encountered.  I learned new (and better) ways to teach my children in the logic and rhetoric stages.  I have a clearer picture of my children's weaknesses and areas where they need improvement.  For example, my oldest writes excellent papers but answering in class essay questions was a HUGE area of weakness that I might not have discovered otherwise.  I had more time to focus on my five younger children and an entire day to spend with them while my older children were in class.  I have ideas about things I will do with my younger children that I did not do with the oldest ones.  Overall, I feel I'll be a better teacher.

 

The downsides for us were that as a relaxed homeschooler I felt there was some work that amounted to busywork.  I still had my children complete it but would not have assigned it at home.  Both of my children are very active in sports that are fairly time consuming.  My daughter really missed the free time she had as a relaxed homeschooler.  She used to have hours per day to play with younger siblings, cook, sew, and do other projects like start businesses.  We will finish up at the end of April, though, so she'll have summer to do those things, whereas we previously schooled year round.   

 

Both children are looking forward to another year of CC (Challenge 4 and Challenge B), and then we'll move on.  My son will be a senior and plans to take dual enrollment courses at a local community college.  The workload for Challenge 1 seems heavier than A and B, and my daughter would rather pursue other interests than increase time spent on schoolwork.

 

Saxon math has not been a good fit for our children, so we're using something else next year.  My dd used Saxon Algebra 1/2 this year, while most of the class was using 7/8.  Using a different math program doesn't really affect the program.  The students do not go over specific assignments in class.  They discuss concepts and present problems to the class.  It was good for my children to learn to demonstrate and explain concepts to their peers and they did learn from watching others.

 

My 10 yo has expressed an interest in doing Challenge A when he's 12, so we'll probably let him do it if the tutor and class seem to be a good fit.  I might also do a few years of challenge with the others, but who knows???  This year has been great, though!

 

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Jazzy

[happy7]

It will totally depend on your child. It was not a good fit for my son. He started in Challenge A with no history of being in CC. The Latin started out fine, but became overwhelming. I didn't know that until he had a meltdown over Christmas break. If I had known, I would have modified the work for him. You can do that if you let the tutor know. Some kids don't do the Latin at all (but that would be kind of a waste, I think). He is a STEM kid and was ahead of ChA in both math and science at home. That wasn't a big issue, though, because the class discussion was pre-algebra so he could follow it just fine. Being ahead doesn't hurt the in class discussion at all really, because your child is familiar with the material. ChA was easier than what we had done in the past with the exception of Latin (which we had not done) and Geography. Drawing all of the maps drove him nuts. He was capable of it and did well, but he disliked it immensely. The nail in the coffin for us was that he wasn't really making friends. The whole point of it was for community, but there were only maybe 4 other boys in the class and they all had known each other for a long time. It was too hard for him to break in. And he makes friends fairly easily. So we withdrew midyear.  

 

If you have friends in the CC community near you and have a compelling reason to join, then that might be worth it. There were definitely things I liked about CC. But if the Challenge program near you is small and you don't know anyone, it might not be worth changing. Definitely visit. Find out who the tutor will be next year (don't assume the same person is coming back in the fall - they change). Who the tutor is matters a lot. Pay attention to whether the tutor fosters cooperation or competition in the class. Our tutor tended to foster competition, which didn't help. They could earn "tickets" to spend at an auction at the end of the year, and they were frequently reminded in class how many tickets each kid had (which means everyone knows who has the most and who has the least - it's like having your grades announced in front of the class). See how your student interacts with the other students. It could be a good experience for you. I have friends who love it. Each community is different. 

[happy7]

Could you find/start a Tapestry of Grace co-op? That would meet your needs.

[LynnG in Arizona]

Really enjoying this discussion, as we are wrapping up 5th grade with my daughter and starting to contemplate our plans for 7th grade and beyond. 

 

We've just finished our second year with CC (foundations and essentials), and it has been an imperfect fit for us.  There are so MANY lovely aspects of the program, and others that drive me completely batty!  :)   

 

Having homeschooled for 15+ years and graduated 2 students, I am plenty confident in my ability to homeschool.  I don't "need" CC or any other co-op group, except for the fellowship aspect, which cannot (or should not) be overlooked completely.  And we haven't had any luck at all in finding a regular, sustained fellowship group in any other way.  I know, because we tried it on our own when we moved to the area.  

 

As I research the details of Challenge, I am struck again by the impression that there are parts of the program that are a great fit for us, and others that are distinctly not.  In a perfect world, I would start my own co-op, but this isn't  my season of life to do something like that (extended family responsibilities).  So it all boils down to this:  should we enroll in Challenge because it is pretty much the only game in town, and does have many lovely components?  Or is it such an imperfect fit that I am setting us up for failure?

 

No easy answers!

 

 

[kristin0713]

It is a really hard thing with CC. I so agree with the phrase "imperfect fit". For us it came down to the fact that my kids did not want to do it anymore. We had a terrible year with health problems and anxiety in my 5th grade DD, and it caused me to re-evaluate our plan for getting her through middle school and preparing for high school. I realized this year that she does not do well under pressure and does not benefit from the competitive nature of doing academics with peers. We have a great group of wonderful, kind, helpful, and supportive kids and parents so it is not a bad community situation. But I don't think Challenge would be good for her or for my relationship with her. If she were a different kind of kid who thrived on working with peers, did well under pressure, and enjoyed some friendly competition, I would contiunue CC with plans to do Challenge. I love the literature and the independent science research emphasis in Challenge A. I think the math practice would be fine reinforcement and we would certainly continue with our own program. The Latin, eh, I could do without it but I do think it will help with foreign language someday. But anyway, we are done with CC for now. Best of luck in your decision!

[HSmomof2]

Really enjoying this discussion, as we are wrapping up 5th grade with my daughter and starting to contemplate our plans for 7th grade and beyond.

 

We've just finished our second year with CC (foundations and essentials), and it has been an imperfect fit for us. There are so MANY lovely aspects of the program, and others that drive me completely batty! :)

 

Having homeschooled for 15+ years and graduated 2 students, I am plenty confident in my ability to homeschool. I don't "need" CC or any other co-op group, except for the fellowship aspect, which cannot (or should not) be overlooked completely. And we haven't had any luck at all in finding a regular, sustained fellowship group in any other way. I know, because we tried it on our own when we moved to the area.

 

As I research the details of Challenge, I am struck again by the impression that there are parts of the program that are a great fit for us, and others that are distinctly not. In a perfect world, I would start my own co-op, but this isn't my season of life to do something like that (extended family responsibilities). So it all boils down to this: should we enroll in Challenge because it is pretty much the only game in town, and does have many lovely components? Or is it such an imperfect fit that I am setting us up for failure?

 

No easy answers!

 

I feel similarly about CC, but we've decided to try it for Challenge A next year. It will be dd's first year in CC. After much deliberation, I've decided that for us, the things I like outweigh what I don't enough to give it a try. I know the tutor and director personally, and know they do a wonderful job. My dd's three closet friends are also doing Challenge A at this community next year, too, so that factored heavily in our decision.

[LynnG in Arizona]

I feel similarly about CC, but we've decided to try it for Challenge A next year. It will be dd's first year in CC. After much deliberation, I've decided that for us, the things I like outweigh what I don't enough to give it a try. I know the tutor and director personally, and know they do a wonderful job. My dd's three closet friends are also doing Challenge A at this community next year, too, so that factored heavily in our decision.

 

 

It sounds like you are going in with many factors in your favor.  Three close friends and a great tutor are HUGE!  Hope you all have a great year.  :)