Dancing bears questions

[AimeeM]

We've run into this a couple times now -- when they throw in words that need specific rules to decode, but the rule hasn't been taught in the program yet. The most recent issue has been a drill page with a concept that was never taught - words with a silent "e" that do not follow the typical "magic e" rule. Today, an example was the word "horse," or "verse." In fact, I don't think they've taught "silent e" at all yet in the program - he just happens to know it (but only the typical "makes the other vowel say its name" -- not in this context). 

 

When I google this, I'm not finding a rule I can teach him, either, so if you have advice for that, I'd appreciate it. As much as we're invested in this program, days like this make me want to kick it to the curb. It was really a downer for him that he didn't know these words. Frankly, the only thing holding me back from moving programs is that he's halfway through this one (Book A) and there doesn't seem to be a good place for him to move that doesn't either require he start over (to cover things not taught, but he would be frustrated at re-learning all of the thing he HAS learned) or that would require I re-write the program.

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by AimeeM

[Arctic Bunny]

In those cases, the e is making the S say ssss instead of zzzz, but I'm not sure if that's a coincidence or not. Compared to, say, cars...

[mellifera33]

Adding to arctic bunny's post, the se ending also indicates that the s is not a suffix making a word plural but an integral part of the word. Please vs pleas, for example. My son finds that kind of explanation, rather than a strict phonics rule, to be helpful.

 

We really like Dancing Bears, but it doesn't teach a lot of rules in an explicit way. I have found that a good companion is The ABCs and All Their Tricks. We use it to help explain rules when ds isn't learning them implicitly as patterns.

[Arctic Bunny]

Adding to arctic bunny's post, the se ending also indicates that the s is not a suffix making a word plural but an integral part of the word. Please vs pleas, for example. My son finds that kind of explanation, rather than a strict phonics rule, to be helpful.

 

We really like Dancing Bears, but it doesn't teach a lot of rules in an explicit way. I have found that a good companion is The ABCs and All Their Tricks. We use it to help explain rules when ds isn't learning them implicitly as patterns.

Thank you for that! After I posted at almost 1am, I thought, "Should I have pressed the post button? Will this make any sense in the morning, or does it only make sense in the middle of the night?"

[mellifera33]

Thank you for that! After I posted at almost 1am, I thought, "Should I have pressed the post button? Will this make any sense in the morning, or does it only make sense in the middle of the night?"

 

:lol:  I find that phonics rules often don't make sense to me at any time of day, so I can't help you there. 

 

Maybe that's also why we like the Sound Foundations programs--they integrate morphology early in the phonics program, which gives ds some meaning to assign to the phonics rules he's using. That probably doesn't make much sense, and it's almost 9 AM.  :laugh:

 

Okay, I just looked back at our earlier DB books, Bear Necessities A1 and A2, and it looks like the first silent e words introduced are give, have, and live, following the "English words don't end in u or v" rule. I don't have DB A, so I don't know if the order is different there. The next silent e words are the ones you mentioned, like horse and verse, where there is an r-controlled vowel and an /s/ sound at the end. I would explain it like arctic bunny described above, that the se is an s rather than a z sound. 

[AimeeM]

DB-A has introduced those three words as well.

I guess my confusion is still that they do not actually give the rules to be introduced, which is difficult for me. 

 

The type of explanation you gave above does make sense to me - but it would definitely confuse this particular son :P

:lol:  I find that phonics rules often don't make sense to me at any time of day, so I can't help you there. 

 

Maybe that's also why we like the Sound Foundations programs--they integrate morphology early in the phonics program, which gives ds some meaning to assign to the phonics rules he's using. That probably doesn't make much sense, and it's almost 9 AM.  :laugh:

 

Okay, I just looked back at our earlier DB books, Bear Necessities A1 and A2, and it looks like the first silent e words introduced are give, have, and live, following the "English words don't end in u or v" rule. I don't have DB A, so I don't know if the order is different there. The next silent e words are the ones you mentioned, like horse and verse, where there is an r-controlled vowel and an /s/ sound at the end. I would explain it like arctic bunny described above, that the se is an s rather than a z sound. 

 

[Storygirl]

I used Dancing Bears A with DD11 when I suspected dyslexia but didn't have a diagnosis yet. It was helpful and yet not. She had a big guessing habit, and the program helped her deal with slowing down to sound things out, so for that reason I liked it. But it really didn't teach phonics rules. It only worked for us because DD had already completed a reading program (How to Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons), and even though I didn't consider her previous phonics lessons to be an overall success, she had at least been introduced to and practiced decoding phonetically.

 

I thought we would like Dancing Bears because DD had so much trouble memorizing rules and letters and sounds. I thought it might be better to not try to make her memorize them but to learn to read without that step. But it didn't work for us. We eventually switched to lessons with an OG tutor and then enrolled her in an OG based dyslexia school. And OG has them memorize the rules but in a multisensory way. She is making progress now in a way that she did not with Dancing Bears.

 

So even though I see it recommended as a choice for kids with dyslexia, I didn't find it effective. DD's phonological disability is on the severe side; perhaps it may work better for students with a mild disability.

 

Some people do think that if a child really struggles with the phonics, that you should work around that and teach them another way. I've had people tell me that in the past. I think Dancing Bears is a kind of work-around-the-phonics-rules program. If you want deep phonics instruction to address a phonological disability, it just isn't a program that is meant to do that.

 

If you like aspects of DB and want to continue with it, but need more direct instruction on the phonics rules, I think you will have to supplement.

[AimeeM]

We're in a similar position with this DS. Our oldest (DD15) is dyslexic, and DS7 has a lot of similar issues, but he also has several medical and physical differences (as well as eye issues), so while we're treating it as dyslexia right now, we are definitely holding out on the formal dx (we just haven't had a ton of luck with dx's when there are other issues that complicate the dx). 

 

DD15 did attend a local private school for bright dyslexics, but it was a nightmare (at best). For many reasons, it isn't an option for this kiddo.

 

I'm tempted to order All About Reading 1 and just fast-track him through it (fast-track through what I know he's solid on). DB makes moving difficult, because while it still hasn't introduced things like consonant blends or "silent e" is an obvious way, the flashcard system has definitely solidified more advanced sounds than are found in AAR 1 (or, at least, the beginning of AAR 1).

 

But I'm only becoming more frustrated with DB. We're still on Book A -- two years into the program, largely because of the lack of direct instruction (for me!). Compound words are just there -- there's no teaching about it. 

I used Dancing Bears A with DD11 when I suspected dyslexia but didn't have a diagnosis yet. It was helpful and yet not. She had a big guessing habit, and the program helped her deal with slowing down to sound things out, so for that reason I liked it. But it really didn't teach phonics rules. It only worked for us because DD had already completed a reading program (How to Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons), and even though I didn't consider her previous phonics lessons to be an overall success, she had at least been introduced to and practiced decoding phonetically.

 

I thought we would like Dancing Bears because DD had so much trouble memorizing rules and letters and sounds. I thought it might be better to not try to make her memorize them but to learn to read without that step. But it didn't work for us. We eventually switched to lessons with an OG tutor and then enrolled her in an OG based dyslexia school. And OG has them memorize the rules but in a multisensory way. She is making progress now in a way that she did not with Dancing Bears.

 

So even though I see it recommended as a choice for kids with dyslexia, I didn't find it effective. DD's phonological disability is on the severe side; perhaps it may work better for students with a mild disability.

 

Some people do think that if a child really struggles with the phonics, that you should work around that and teach them another way. I've had people tell me that in the past. I think Dancing Bears is a kind of work-around-the-phonics-rules program. If you want deep phonics instruction to address a phonological disability, it just isn't a program that is meant to do that.

 

If you like aspects of DB and want to continue with it, but need more direct instruction on the phonics rules, I think you will have to supplement.