SM bar models vs Hands on Equations?

[SilverMoon]

Short version: If HoE is working, is it worth an uphill battle to get bar models learned well enough to be useful?

 

More details: This is our first year using Singapore; second if you count a year of MiF. DD/8 started SM with 4a and has never learned bar models. I've noticed most tricky SM problems have been worked out somewhere on this board (LOL) and we've tinkered with those examples. She can easily comprehend working them out on the whiteboard with an X for the variables though.

 

DD/8 is an intense little person who is wicked good at math and rather opposed to drawing the bar models. She's picking up HoE quickly from the app and I plan to chase that with the book/tokens.

 

If you think bar models are worth it, material suggestions would be great.

Edited February 4, 2017 by SilverMoon

[Lecka]

My son is in public school and in MiF. When I help him, I solve problems like I learned in Algebra (using an x), and then go from there to a bar model.

 

To me I am fine with that. I don't want to make the bar model first bc it is not familiar to me. But I can do it.

 

At the same time -- ime they started bar models in 4th grade. Well -- if you are using it, you need to do bad models. Or else it is like teaching an alternate method for the next two years at least. My son is in 6th grade and still doing bad models.

 

So I think it might be worth it for her to set problems up as bar models if you are using this curriculum.

 

I also think -- it is not that bad for me as someone who starts with Algebra (Bc that is how I learned to do these problems) and then go back and represent the problem with a bar model.

 

I don't think it is too much to ask to set problems up as a bar model.

 

If I understand the Algebra, the bar model should be pretty intuitive, and it mostly has been, since I have gotten used to it.

 

It was confusing when my son was in 4th grade but after an initial learning curve it is really not that bad.

 

I do think it is up to you, but I don't think it would be too much to ask to have her set up bar models if she is good at math. But also I don't think you have to do it just bc it exists.

 

I have found though there are things in Algebra where I just linked words to numbers to set up an equation, like I am just plugging in numbers. Like "of means multiply" and things like that.

 

I think with bar models I can't get away with that and have to actually look at what is happening in the problem. But I can get away with not doing that bc I have memorized how to work some kinds of problems (like percents) in Algebra.

 

So I like that my son is learning it, I think it seems good.

 

Anyway -- there is my opinion :)

[8filltheheart]

We are pawn people, not bar method. Works for us. :)

[SilverMoon]

We are pawn people, not bar method. Works for us. :)

Your posts are why we have HoE in the first place. :D

 

I asked DD how her HoE app was going today. "It's hard, but it's really going okay. I don't want to talk about it." lol

[sweetpea3829]

Gosh, I think both are appropriate.  

 

We mostly focus on bar models but, as DS is getting to the end of his elementary math, he's also done some work with HoE and DragonBox.  Surprisingly, he really wasn't that into either one of them, but he definitely understands the scale method and what needs to be done to balance an equation, etc.

 

I'm not really sure why either would be better than the other?  Bar models, in our home, serve a different kind of problem solving than balancing equations does.  

 

For resources...we use Process Skills in Problem Solving.  But because PSPS doesn't have enough practice, we combine it with Challenging Word Problems.  

[Creekside5]

I am a huge fan of Hands on Equations.  The first book is simple, the second book gets into adding and subtracting negative and positive numbers.  It teaches it super well.  The third book continues the adding and subtracting.  I think all kids should do it.  My fifth graders breezed through the first book, and we took the second and third ones slower.  After that, they knew the material really well, and I even skipped teaching those concepts in Saxon (saxon teaches it poorly anyways.) My students loved HOE.  I would buy it just for fun.

 

 

[SoCal_Bear]

We use both as both have their place in problem solving. I really like bar modeling as it really requires the student to understand the word problem and be able to pictorially model it to see what is happening. That being said, if you are having a bit of a challenge with teaching it...don't use CWP...use the Fan Math Process Skills instead as that has instruction in it. 

The interesting thing is that bar models don't show up in SM until 3 versus if you were using CWP, those bar models were showing up right out of the gate in 1. 

[SilverMoon]

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Edited September 6, 2023 by SilverMoon

[fdrinca]

There are some categories of problems which really lend themselves to a bar model. They provide a framework for the student to logic through a problem. We have had a few problems in which my son (who is fluent with variables and basic algebra) was able to "see" a solution using the bar model. These tend to be comparison problems or ones dealing with fractions.

 

I wouldn't set them up in opposition. They feel like valid and useful additions to any problem solving toolbox.

[SoCal_Bear]

Silvermoon, 
 

I wouldn't suggest going back a level in the main program. It may be worth dropping back a level using the Fan Math Process Skills books to teach SM style word problems. Lots of people do CWP a level behind. Then math skills are well established, and the focus is on developing problem solving skills. 

[sweetpea3829]

Yeah, the Process Skills books teach from grade 1, but you definitely do not need to start there.  That said, I always teach it a year behind our grade level.  The reason for that is because, beginning in grade 3 or so (If I remember correctly now), the variety of math is more difficult.  So I wouldn't want my students learning how to work with fractions AND, at the same time, trying to puzzle out the bar models for fractions.  That's too frustrating for them, especially if they are new to bar modeling.  

 

Even my mathy son, I keep him half a grade level behind.  So how it works for him is....he learns the material in his SM book and then, the next semester, he sees it in the bar modeling book, reinforced with the CWP book.  

 

I will freely admit, my first two years with bar modeling, I was lost as all get out.  Now, I can't see how I was EVER lost...it all makes so much more sense.  But back when I was first learning it while teaching it to DS, there were MANY times I was confused and couldn't picture the model.  

 

Finally, my mathy kid HATED bar models for a long time.  He hated them.  And, why wouldn't he?  He could figure the problems in his head and/or write them out without needing that visual model.  It was a frustrating extra step for him.  But I'm so glad I made him stick it out because a couple of years in, he started to see the value of the models.  He now, reluctantly tells me, "You know mom, the bar models really do help sometimes..."  

 

He doesn't always need them, and now that he knows how to do them, I don't require them (unless he's learning a new strategy in Process Skills).  But occasionally, I'll see him utilize a modeling strategy all on his own.  

 

Win!  

 

 

P.S. One more thing...my LD kiddo, with significant weaknesses in math reasoning, has really benefited from bar modeling.  I didn't really push the issue with her until she was a bit older, for a variety of reasons, but I'm starting to see the light bulb flash on a whole lot more during her problem solving lessons.  The bar models give her a framework that she can "see", and they assist her in reasoning out a solution.  As long as she remembers what goes where, lol.  

Edited February 4, 2017 by Sweetpea3829

[8filltheheart]

Pawns can also work extremely well for helping kids visualize problems dealing with factional amts. If the word problems, for example, is dealing with fifths, the student knows that it takes 5 pawns to be the equivalent of 1.

 

SilverMoon, my current 9th grader jumped into MiF in 4th grade. She had never used bar diagrams before. I let her use whatever method worked for her for solving the problems. Sometimes she would use bar diagrams, sometimes she would use pawns, and sometimes she would just write it down algebraically.

 

Fwiw, I have seen zero long term difference in the math understanding or abilities in my kids that didn't use anything like HOE or bar diagrams and my ones that have. For me they are just another way of helping them understand math.

[8filltheheart]

I should add that she is the only who has used MiF. She is stubborn as a mule and declares things hard and shuts down and refuses to try. So I had to up the ante in order for her to even do simple things.

[SilverMoon]

Stubborn, yes. This is the most stubborn and intense person in this house of eight people. If I'm going to put my foot down and make her do bar models or HoE I have to mean it and deliver it. Anything too easy is "boring and stupid"; anything perceived as hard is balked at severely. I've never known a person who could make something she is SO very good at such a chore to get through. Once she gets over herself she rips through the new "hard" material like it was preschool work.

 

She started MiF last year in 2nd grade and did both MiF and Horizons most of the year.  By the end it was all MiF; she was doing well but complained endlessly about writing out every tedious step. SM has less baby steps and a cheap set landed in my lap so we gave it a go.

 

Our CWP and IP are at the same level as her wb/tb. Frankly this is the only thing that kept her from finishing 4a in less than two months and I want her to get stuck occasionally, in spite of the wailing and gnashing of teeth. :tongue_smilie:

 

I will look into the process skills book.