Physics or Advanced Chemistry or College Biology course for HS Senior?

[Sherri in MI]

My son is a rising senior and has completed Biology, Chemistry and Advanced Biology (Anatomy and Physiology) and we were considering Physics for next year, because that's the usual path for college bound students.  He knows he wants to major in biology leading to an advanced degree and he wants to do some kind of research in biology for a profession, but he doesn't know what yet. 

 

He did not take the AP Biology Exam because I was woefully ignorant of the AP Program.

 

 

I'm reconsidering Physics for next year and thinking instead of Advanced Chemistry or a college Bio course (dual enrollment) or a specialized high school bio course (if I can find one).  But I know nothing about it.  Not a science person.  New to the world of dual enrollment.  Didn't go to college the traditional route. 

 

Do colleges require high school Physics for admission?  What biology classes can a high school student take at a local college without having to have prereqs.  Is a college Biology 101 course going to be just a rehash of high school biology?

 

Would greatly appreciate the hive's thoughts, opinions and advice.

 

 

[LisaKinVA]

Physics isn't usually a requirement for admission, but as the mother of two children interested in a degree in Biology/Chemistry (one general, one pre-med), here is what I can tell you:

 

AP Biology isn't likely to count towards his degree -- he's probably got enough of a background in General Biology/Anatomy that he'll be fine to start out with the required Bio sequence.  ETA:  AP Biology is the equivalent of General Biology for non-majors (at least at the schools we're looking at -- this is true for the tier 1 and the tier 2 school).  They have a separate Biology sequence for majors you cannot CLEP or AP out of.

 

Your son will most likely need University Physics (calc based) as a Biology major (in high school, this would be AP Physics C -- both sections).  ETA:  Both the tier 1 and tier 2 schools we've been looking at will *only* grant credit for Physics if *both* sections of AP Physics C are taken.  If you can take these at the CC, great -- you will probably be fine (I'd still self-study for the AP exam), if you can't take both sections, I'd suggest a solid honors-level Physics course.

 

Overall recommendation?  I would suggest either:  Physics (a solid honors-level course), or AP Chemistry (mostly because he will most likely take Organic Chem, Micro Chem, and another Chem course, plus General Chem is usually required of Bio majors, too).  Often AP Chemistry (with a 4) will count as the General Chemistry requirement, and allow the student to progress to the more advanced chemistry sections.

Edited July 8, 2016 by LisaK in VA is in IT

[MarkT]

Any College science major should take Physics in HS.

From your other Math thread I would say an Algebra based Physics course (see pinned thread) would be the correct route.

[regentrude]

Your son will most likely need University Physics (calc based) as a Biology major (in high school, this would be AP Physics C -- both sections). 

 

That is not the case at many universities. The large number of "College Physics" texts with a strong focus on life science applications exist precisely because most colleges require only algebra/trig based physics for biology majors.

[regentrude]

Colleges* do not have physics as a requirement for admission; many highschools unfortunately do not offer physics at all for their students.

ETA: should read *"most colleges". A  later poster pointed out a college that does.

 

As a biology major, your student will be required to take physics in college, and most likely that will be an algebra/trig based College Physics class. This is actually a good high school level course and both my kids took it as their first high school science. While I think every student should take physics in high school to be an educated person, I would hesitate to recommend algebra based physics for a senior who will then retake pretty much the same class at college - unless you can have him take it at community college and earn credit so he gets this requirement out of the way. This would be my preferred way of killing two birds with one stone.

Edited July 10, 2016 by regentrude

[LisaKinVA]

That is not the case at many universities. The large number of "College Physics" texts with a strong focus on life science applications exist precisely because most colleges require only algebra/trig based physics for biology majors.

That is college and degree dependent. All of the schools dd is looking into, even a tier 3 require calc based physics for a bio major (and she needs a whole year). Some schools offer multiple biology degrees, and requirements differ based upon BS or BA, emphasis, or overall program. The OP's son is looking toward some sort of advanced degree in the field, but doesn't know which one -- unless he's leaning pre-med, or vet, there is an increased likelihood to need calc based, as most theoretical, environmental, genetics, evolutionary fields require more. I wouldn't make any assumptions about not needing calc based physics because the major is biology.

[MarkT]

Colleges do not have physics as a requirement for admission; many highschools unfortunatey do not offer physics at all for their students.

 

As a biology major, your student will be required to take physics in college, and most likely that will be an algebra/trig based College Physics class. This is actually a good high school level course and both my kids took it as their first high school science. While I think every student should take physics in high school to be an educated person, I would hesitate to recommend agebra based physics for a senior who will then retake pretty much the same class at college - unless you can have him take it at community college and earn credit so he gets this requirement out of the way. This would be my preferred way of killing two birds with one stone.

For most students, I am not too keen on this approach if actual understanding of the Physics versus check-the-box is desired.  For most STEM topics, the student needs a second pass through to fully grok the material. The college class should be quicker paced and more in depth than the typical high school level. Even Calculus based Physics is just a second pass through for the Newtonian stuff.

 

Obviously there are students in the top 5-10% that do not need this method at all. This particular student does not seem to fit that profile.

[Guest]

Physics isnt required for college admission, but its highly recommended for science majors, since they will be taking physics at the college level.

Not having a good high school level physics course makes college physics a lot of work. The schools here that dont offer a good high school course recommend their seniors DE, taking the course on the CC campus. If they have already taken Calc 1 and gen ed physics, they take calc based physics, if not they take algebra based.

[regentrude]

 For most STEM topics, the student needs a second pass through to fully grok the material. The college class should be quicker paced and more in depth than the typical high school level. Even Calculus based Physics is just a second pass through for the Newtonian stuff.

 

Unless the student is looking at a top college, the physics course for life science majors will be taught with the assumption that a large portion of the student never had any physics before. Just look at the level of the college physics textbooks; there is nothing there that would not make a fine high school course for a 10th grader who had a decent algebra/geometry math foundation. If it is a class with a high pass rate, it will go veeery slowly because the math skills of the students are often problematic. (I have been teaching physics for biology majors for many years.)

 

I agree that the typical high school physics class  - of it even existed - is extremely poor; I see very few students who find that their high school physics class was worth anything, it is the class which seems to have the most problems. But for a homeschooling parent, the "typical" high school level  is irrelevant, which is why I recommended using a college physics level to teach this senior physics.

 

It would be worth investigating whether the college is one of those that requires calc based physics for bio majors. If it does not, the student will receive exactly the same course again. 

 

So, I think before making a choice, the OP should take a look at the degree requirements of the colleges her senior is interested in and form her plan accordingly.

Edited July 9, 2016 by regentrude

[mjbucks1]

I agree with regentrude...first look at the requirements of the colleges your son is interested in applying to.

 

Your son has a solid two years of high biology, and most colleges do not accept the AP Biology exam as fulling the requirement for biology majors, so I would not worry about biology.

 

As far as deciding between physics and chemistry, I think it depends on the degree requirements. I was a biology/biochemistry major years ago, and I was required to take algebra based physics. I did not take physics in high school, but I had a strong math background and felt physics was relatively easy. If your son only needs algebra based physics, he might want to DE that class and get the credit. Even if calculus based physics is required, it might be nice for your son to have a year of physics under his belt. I think he will have fun seeing how he can apply calculus to the physics he already knows.

 

He could also take AP Chemistry/DE Chemistry, but if he takes the credit for general chemistry, he would then most likely take organic chemistry as his freshman chemistry course. That is a "weed out" course for many majors, so would that be a wise decision? Sometimes kids need time to adjust to college. It might be better to start off in general chemistry, as he will have a lot of review form high school chemistry and also get a more solid foundation (and it could be a GPA booster). Only you and your son could answer that.

 

I personally think an algebra based physics course (either AP, DE, or a course at home) would be a really good decision, but you know your son the best!

[mjbucks1]

I agree with regentrude...first look at the requirements of the colleges your son is interested in applying to.

 

Your son has a solid two years of high biology, and most colleges do not accept the AP Biology exam as fulling the requirement for biology majors, so I would not worry about biology.

 

As far as deciding between physics and chemistry, I think it depends on the degree requirements. I was a biology/biochemistry major years ago, and I was required to take algebra based physics. I did not take physics in high school, but I had a strong math background and felt physics was relatively easy. If your son only needs algebra based physics, he might want to DE that class and get the credit. Even if calculus based physics is required, it might be nice for your son to have a year of physics under his belt. I think he will have fun seeing how he can apply calculus to the physics he already knows.

 

He could also take AP Chemistry/DE Chemistry, but if he takes the credit for general chemistry, he would then most likely take organic chemistry as his freshman chemistry course. That is a "weed out" course for many majors, so would that be a wise decision? Sometimes kids need time to adjust to college. It might be better to start off in general chemistry, as he will have a lot of review form high school chemistry and also get a more solid foundation (and it could be a GPA booster). Only you and your son could answer that.

 

I personally think an algebra based physics course (either AP, DE, or a course at home) would be a really good decision, but you know your son the best!

[MarkT]

 

I agree that the typical high school physics class  - of it even existed - is extremely poor; I see very few students who find that their high school physics class was worth anything, it is the class which seems to have the most problems. But for a homeschooling parent, the "typical" high school level  is irrelevant, which is why I recommended using a college physics level to teach this senior physics.

 

Disagree - typical HS level means the topics covered and the depth of coverage, it does not mean the "typical public HS Physics class" which may well be horrible these days.  Homeschooling or not the material still needs to match the student's capability at the time of the course. This particular student has taken a less challenging math sequence so far versus some other students on this forum so something like Thinkwell would be more appropriate.

 

[ I am assuming that the good College Algebra based Physics text books/classes are more challenging then the standard level HS Algebra based Physics text books/classes, with competent instruction for both, I may be wrong.]

[Guest]

[ I am assuming that the good College Algebra based Physics text books/classes are more challenging then the standard level HS Algebra based Physics text books/classes, with competent instruction for both, I may be wrong.]

You are correct for my area. My college kids find that most of their peers coming in with Honors Regents Physics, DE Physics or any AP Physics are far better prepared then those coming in with just Regents Physics, which is gen ed and doesnt cover enough material to score in the 700s on the SAT 2.

 

The trouble with DE Physics is that its a one semester 4 credit class with lab, so a huge time suck compared to taking just one AP Physics class over two semesters.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[Lanny]

IMO the lack of Physics on a transcript would cause an Admissions person to look more closely at the transcript, and at the student.  IMO Physics is normally taken in 11th grade. I suggest strongly that he take Physics.   GL to him!

[regentrude]

IMO the lack of Physics on a transcript would cause an Admissions person to look more closely at the transcript, and at the student.  IMO Physics is normally taken in 11th grade.

 

I do not believe the bolded is correct.

Many public high schools especially in rural areas do not even offer physics. 

25% of the engineering and physical science majors at our public 4 year uni (engineering school with strong reputation) never had any physics in high school. Among majors in other disciplines, the percentage of students who never took physics is far greater. Most of my biology majors managed to avoid physics in high school.

 

If you look at admissions requirements of colleges, very few require even four years of science, and I have seen no requirements for physics specifically.

Edited July 9, 2016 by regentrude

[Guest]

Colleges do not have physics as a requirement for admission; many highschools unfortunatey do not offer physics at all for their students.

.

That depends on the college and the major. When we visited SUNY Poly, looking at the Nanotech program, the Prof. At the Q and A confirmed their web page http://www.sunycnse.com/PioneeringAcademics/UndergraduatePrograms/ApplicationandAdmission/FreshmanStatus.aspx

was correct, and high school physics was needed. The student asking the question was at a private high school that offered no physics. He was given suggestions on where to look for a lab based class.

 

The OP will have to investigate. Students who have had a good high school physics course usually do better in college physics than those who havent. Why put your student at a disadvantage when you have choice? Especially if he is going to a U that has a freshman gpa reqt to enter the major, and is big enough that it will have plenty of pre-meds looking for a 4.0, who already have taken AP Physics, as competition?

Edited July 10, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[MarkT]

That depends on the college and the major. When we visited SUNY Poly, looking at the Nanotech program, the Prof. At the Q and A confirmed their web page http://www.sunycnse.com/PioneeringAcademics/UndergraduatePrograms/ApplicationandAdmission/FreshmanStatus.aspx

was correct, and high school physics was needed. The student asking the question was at a private high school that offered no physics. He was given suggestions on where to look for a lab based class.

 

Yes it is quite reasonable for a SUNY school to expect Physics since I would say almost 100% of the public schools in NYS offer a Physics class. I know of some very tiny public schools in upstate NY that offer Regents Physics.

 

Almost all publicly funded high schools in AZ offer at least one Physics class.

 

Of course the quality of these classes may be suspect.