s/o Stick with DO through AP Calc, or...?

[Matryoshka]

I keep wondering what to do with dd for math.  She's very math-intuitive, but ... lazy.  She did AoPS for Algebra 1 and that really made her think, which was great.  She liked it.  But then when she finished, she seemed to have forgotten how to do some things, so I figured she hadn't done enough practice problems.  She ended up doing an Algebra 1 again (at an easier, more straightforward level) at ps last year.  She's back home, and feels like she lost time doing that review so wants to double-time through Algebra 2 to put herself 'back on track'.  

 

She's flying through the Algebra 2.  She thus far (5 chapters in) has not done the practice problems or taken the notes, although I think in Chapter 5 she said she has just started watching the videos.  :glare:  She says she feels like the videos explain things well. Often she doesn't show all her work (DO has not called her out on this), but I've noticed now that she's through most of the review chapters and the work is getting a little tougher, she's writing out more. She's been making straight 100's on everything since the first couple of homework sets where she made some sign errors, until Chapter 5 where she got a few points off here and there... but I know that if she were in school, she'd be losing major, major points on the same sheets because they won't accept an answer that doesn't show work or even skips steps.  She got 0 points a question on a school test even though she had the right answer, because she showed no work.  If that teacher were grading her DO work, she'd have an F...

 

So, on the one hand, it seems DO is working great for her.  I'm glad people here say it's a 'hard' Algebra 2 that preps well for PreCalc, because Id' be thinking it was light otherwise.  I'm wondering if maybe I switch and have her take some math at the CC, but then I worry that she may tank her grade because of not being willing to show enough work...

 

I read this in the other thread:

 

If your son has done well with Derek Owens, I would definitely consider just sticking with his AP Calculus course.  Dd2 took the course in 9th grade, felt thoroughly prepared for the AP exam, and passed with a 5.  I can't speak to her success in engineering since she's just finishing her junior year of high school  :laugh:, but she has done exceptionally well in her classes at our local Uni. since then: Calculus 1 (Uni. wanted her to repeat, even though she scored a 5), Calc 2, Calc 3 (Multivariable), Linear Algebra, and Intro. Analysis.  She's planning to major in math in college.

 

I am really glad to hear this.  I'm hoping it works out this way.  I'm thinking if I had her take DO AP Calc and then do Calc 1 again when she gets to her 4-year school, maybe that will be a good transition?  Maybe, maybe, hopefully, she will have matured enough by then to bother to show her work even if she can do things in her head (or maybe by that point it won't be possible anymore, and she will have to write things out?)

 

Anyway, what to do with a kid like this?  She loves the concepts, but hates paying attention to detail.  She's currently thinking of maybe a Marketing degree (though I think she'll hate Accounting - it's all detail)...  Do you think just sticking with DO though Calc is the right thing to do?  If she's planning on re-taking Calc in college, maybe it doesn't matter even if she aces the AP exam...?

Edited May 8, 2016 by Matryoshka

[Elise]

Well, just to give you some more hope, I had the worst time convincing dd2 to show her work throughout Algebra 1-2 (we did proofy Geometry, so she had to write everything out for that.)  I may or may not have prophesied doom! :laugh:  Derek Owens AP Calc was her first outside math class, so maybe that made a difference, I don't know.  I think that sometimes kids will do whatever is expected of them (by someone other than mom, hah!), so my guess is that she will rise to the occasion. If you're concerned, though, maybe you could write Derek and ask his opinion/expectations?

[Matryoshka]

Well, just to give you some more hope, I had the worst time convincing dd2 to show her work throughout Algebra 1-2 (we did proofy Geometry, so she had to write everything out for that.)  I may or may not have prophesied doom! :laugh:  Derek Owens AP Calc was her first outside math class, so maybe that made a difference, I don't know.  I think that sometimes kids will do whatever is expected of them (by someone other than mom, hah!), so my guess is that she will rise to the occasion. If you're concerned, though, maybe you could write Derek and ask his opinion/expectations?

 

Thanks.  I just keep hoping she'll mature enough at some point to just do it on her own!  Although, like I said, she does write out more when the math gets more complicated, so maybe it will fade....  She definitely pays more attention to outside providers (which is a big part of why I'm using one), but since he hasn't pushed back to insist she show work, of course she thinks I'm just being annoying if I mention it.

 

I do wish she'd do more practice problems.  I worry about it 'sticking'.  But I guess I can't think of any other program I could use that would force this... ?  Me insisting is like shouting into the wind.

 

I haven't seen a lot of problem solving yet in DO (well, remember we did AoPS Algebra) - does that come up at some point?  Or is some in there and I'm not looking closely enough?  

[EKS]

Based on the programs I know, I'd say DO is somewhere in the middle rigor-wise.  It is definitely above Lial, but below Foerster and, of course, AoPS.  The fifth chapter is where DO starts getting more meaty and is where my son slowed down a bit, though I should mention that he did finish in about 15 weeks.

 

I'm the one who said DO is good prep for precalculus--but by that I meant *his* precalculus.  I have no experience with any other.  

 

As far as I can tell, DO does not deduct points for not showing work, but he is very generous with partial credit when students do show their work.  One thing that I noticed (well after the fact) is that when my older son did DO precalculus, it was blatantly obvious that he just used his graphing calculator and copied the output on his paper.  He got full credit for those.  With the younger one, I made sure to supervise his work more closely.

 

There are word problems, if this is what you mean by problem solving, and some of them are good--especially in the precalculus course.  But I wouldn't say that it is emphasized the way it is in Foerster or AoPS.  If you want a more rigorous course, you might want to take a look at the Math Without Borders videos that go with the Foerster books.

[Matryoshka]

Based on the programs I know, I'd say DO is somewhere in the middle rigor-wise.  It is definitely above Lial, but below Foerster and, of course, AoPS.  The fifth chapter is where DO starts getting more meaty and is where my son slowed down a bit, though I should mention that he did finish in about 15 weeks.

 

I'm the one who said DO is good prep for precalculus--but by that I meant *his* precalculus.  I have no experience with any other.  

 

As far as I can tell, DO does not deduct points for not showing work, but he is very generous with partial credit when students do show their work.  One thing that I noticed (well after the fact) is that when my older son did DO precalculus, it was blatantly obvious that he just used his graphing calculator and copied the output on his paper.  He got full credit for those.  With the younger one, I made sure to supervise his work more closely.

 

Uh oh.  Note to self: don't give her the graphing calculator.  Is it necessary for DO PreCalc, or just 'makes things easier'?  If the latter, I think I won't give one to her; this is just the kind of thing she'd pull...

 

 

There are word problems, if this is what you mean by problem solving, and some of them are good--especially in the precalculus course.  But I wouldn't say that it is emphasized the way it is in Foerster or AoPS.  If you want a more rigorous course, you might want to take a look at the Math Without Borders videos that go with the Foerster books.

 

 

I would love to do this - I even own Foerster's PreCalc already.  But MWB guy doesn't do the grading, does he?  That would be a deal-breaker.  Everything would end up being an argument.  Siiiigh....

[Julie of KY]

If the teacher isn't requiring her to show her work, then I don't think there is anything wrong with not showing it. I don't think she'll "mature" into showing her work if it's not required.

 

However, I do think learning how to show your work is also an important skill. It is also a separate skill from getting the right answer. My oldest who is severely dysgraphic did all his math through precalc orally and simply told me the answers with no work shown or told. We'd converse about some of the problems - I'd make him "explain" the ones I was stumped on, etc. He started writing out work for the first time for calculus free response problems.

 

In your case, I'd let her turn in the work to DO however it is acceptable. (I'd make spot check to make sure she IS doing the work). I'd also require one problem per day or something to be written out for me as a separate requirement.

 

My second son is doing some DO classes with me grading. Since "I" am the teacher/grader, I can insist on showing his work. I'm of the opinion that the right answer is what really counts. Showing your work will get you partial credit if some of the work is correct, but the answer is wrong. If the work is to be graded, then I'd clearly state that. I wouldn't fail a kid for correct answers unless I clearly state that all steps must be shown, etc.

[EKS]

Uh oh.  Note to self: don't give her the graphing calculator.  Is it necessary for DO PreCalc, or just 'makes things easier'?  If the latter, I think I won't give one to her; this is just the kind of thing she'd pull...

 

 

 

I would love to do this - I even own Foerster's PreCalc already.  But MWB guy doesn't do the grading, does he?  That would be a deal-breaker.  Everything would end up being an argument.  Siiiigh....

 

A scientific calculator is helpful (I use an HP 35s), but so far I haven't found a graphing calculator to be necessary.  When I need to graph something, I use the Desmos site.

 

And, you're right, Math Without Borders is just videos (and suggested problem sets, I believe) with no grading.

[Julie of KY]

A graphing calculator is necessary for the AP calculus exam - there are problems on there that are made for calculators rather than by hand.

 

[Haiku]

How about telling your dd that since you are the one who records the grade on the transcript, you will automatically deduct a letter grade on every assignment that she doesn't show her work on?

 

Just because it's a DO class doesn't mean you aren't in charge of your school and your own grading rubric.

Edited May 10, 2016 by TaraTheLiberator