ds is fighting me on notetaking....

[Holly IN]

I am at my wits end here. Ds is fighting me on taking notes during his reading. He is not seeing the importance of it. I got the "How to be a superstar student" from Teaching Co. We are halfway now. I love the idea of learners journal. It confirms to me that he did the reading and took notes on it (good ones). I am doing this along with him for Apologia Biology. I am requiring him to do this for me as part of his grade (I am weighing Biology grades to reflext the notetaking). I also want him to do this for TOG readings as well. He is fighting me big time on this. Anybody go through this attitude??

 

I am not sure why I am writing this here. I guess just to see if you have any advice or just for me to vent to you. A confirm probably from you that you are in the same boat.

 

Thanks!

 

Holly

[Kris]

Yes! Yes! And yes! This solved the problem immediately. I don't know why. Well, yeah, I kinda know why -- but I don't care! :lol: I'm just happy to dispense with another "issue." ;)

 

ETA: And yes -- we're using it for all forms of reading, though the system was originally designed and intended for lectures. It works just fine for the reading.

[Lori D.]

...I would have balked at history notes too.

 

The biology, I would have accepted, as writing notes can be a very helpful way to learn/memorize factual information such as scientific terms, steps of processes, animal classifications, etc. BUT, history is more subjective; it always comes from the *author's* point of view about what's important or what events/people are emphasized/mentioned/omitted. History is not so much straight facts, but more of a story/connections/worldviews/choices & consequences.

 

If you want "straight facts" for history, then how about allowing your student to select 20 events per decade (or historic event, or time frame, or...) that the *student* sees as key events, and write them down as short (1-3 sentence) time line entries (event/person and why it is a key event/person). The student is now having the opportunity to be a historian/author in practicing selecting/omitting! Further, I would suggest having the student discuss the history readings once a week with you -- pointing out connections/causes etc -- and then having the student write a longer paper synthesizing what he/she has learned from the readings would be more helpful in remembering the information from the readings rather than notetaking.

 

And isn't that the point of notetaking -- it's a tool to help remember the readings or the lecture. But not every tool works for every student for every subject. The notetaking is helping with science -- great! It's helping the student learn/remember the info -- with the added bonus of also practicing notetaking. : )

 

Does the student *really* need to practice notetaking for history as well? Is notetaking the best way to learn history and remember the readings -- or is it busywork? Or is it a method that makes it easier for a teacher to grade and to quantify? I know that as a student I had a low tolerance for busywork, and I also quickly became frustrated with being forced to use a study method that did not fit with my learning style and really didn't help me study. For example, I'm remembering being forced to use index cards for notetaking back in high school -- index cards were scattered random facts to me; I work better with a whole sheet of paper and being able to draw arrows, have space to add/change, see and make connections, and write it out in outline form so I could see the whole "big picture" in one place.

 

 

Just my own strange spin on this topic -- take it or leave it as it helps or not. And BEST of luck, whatever you decide. : ) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Lori D.
corrected typos

[Lori D.]

PS -- Great method Kris links you to above! I found that technique to be very helpful in college for taking notes in a lecture. Conversely, for textbooks, I found highlighting key words/phrases in the textbook and then reviewing that highlighting far more helpful for review/study of textbooks than notetaking. Just my learning style! : )

[In The Great White North]

Maybe he doesn't see a reason for it. Neither did I. It's busy work. I never took notes from reading and made it through West Point and a master's degree. I also hate writing and highlighting in books (damages the merchandise). I would sometimes make a single page of stuff to memorize, from the whole semester, but that hardly qualifies as taking notes for each reading assignment. I've looked at the Cornell Method, and, frankly, wish someone would explain to me why it's worth the bother. :confused:

 

Notes are for lectures, not books.

 

I don't blame him at all.

[Holly IN]

Thanks guys!

 

I will look into Kris's links. I am a firm believer in taking notes. It helped me in high school (more than you know!!).

 

Thanks

 

Holly

[Kris]

Maybe he doesn't see a reason for it. Neither did I. It's busy work. I never took notes from reading and made it through West Point and a master's degree. I also hate writing and highlighting in books (damages the merchandise). I would sometimes make a single page of stuff to memorize, from the whole semester, but that hardly qualifies as taking notes for each reading assignment. I've looked at the Cornell Method, and, frankly, wish someone would explain to me why it's worth the bother. :confused:

 

Notes are for lectures, not books.

 

I don't blame him at all.

 

Possibly you were a gifted student? Frankly, I had pretty much the same attitude that you do until recently, though I never would have been successful in law school without highlighting and outlining the reading, since there were no lectures -- only discussions. If you didn't understand the cases, you were busted in class.

 

And I agree with you, to a point. Maybe he does think it's a waste of time now. Maybe it is busy work for him now. But that just makes it easier for him to develop the skills now.

 

I don't know how old Holly's son is, and she didn't say if he is actually having trouble, but even if he isn't, what's wrong with giving him the tools he *might* need when more is expected of him and the work gets more difficult? Should she leave him to his own devices and simply hope that he does well in college? And if he doesn't know what to do when he gets there? What then? There are always remedial classes, but if that can be avoided now, why waste *that* time?

 

*My* abilities are part of the reason my son is in the fix he is in -- thinking that he should be able to do it the way I did. He's got the smarts -- there's never been any doubt about that. But he's been struggling for a long time and I was no help at all. I thought he needed to work harder, be more motivated, take responsibility, pay more attention. *Why* was he not getting this stuff??!!

 

So -- that's why it's worth the bother. He can "Cornell" a section in a book and "get it" in a reasonable time. He used to spend *hours* studying and not be able to tell me hardly anything about what he had been working on all day. And yet he could talk about *anything* else endlessly. I thought he was just playing me -- having a discussion with him about his school work was like pulling teeth.

 

No -- he was totally lost and is only now admitting that because "smart kids" aren't supposed to have to outline and highlight and take notes. One read and it's "in there" -- right?

 

I won't stop beating myself up until he gets caught up, which is something we both see as a possibility now that I've stopped thinking of him as a clone.

[Holly IN]

He is 13 btw. He has bombed his science test due to not knowing what to study for. I am helping him with the notetaking. He has bombed our TOG discussions for lack of memory of what he read. So something has to change. He can't write in the books. So notetaking is the next best. Like Kris said...I want to give him the tools now because he is struggling now.

 

Holly

[periwinkle]

Well, 13yo is a very young age, so you have plenty of time to work on this. Is he a ninth grader? (Mine has a September birthday and is only in 7th grade). I have also found this to be the most defiant and difficult age to teach for my boys (and I am on the third one now!!) Such attitudes:glare: So there, you have my confirmation that your ds is not the only one, lol!

 

On a more positive note:001_smile:it gets better...just keep on taking baby steps and you will still get to your destination. :grouphug:

[Holly IN]

Well, 13yo is a very young age, so you have plenty of time to work on this. Is he a ninth grader? (Mine has a September birthday and is only in 7th grade).

 

On a more positive note:001_smile:it gets better...just keep on taking baby steps and you will still get to your destination. :grouphug:

 

Thank you!! He is an 8th grader. However he is doing two high school classes. Thank you for the confirm. He is very defiant than ever before. It is very depressing. :glare: Thank you for a BTDT comment.

 

 

Holly

[In The Great White North]

So -- that's why it's worth the bother. He can "Cornell" a section in a book and "get it" in a reasonable time. He used to spend *hours* studying and not be able to tell me hardly anything about what he had been working on all day. And yet he could talk about *anything* else endlessly. I thought he was just playing me -- having a discussion with him about his school work was like pulling teeth.

 

That makes sense. It really wasn't a time saver for me. Hopefully, it will save time (and increase comprehension) for OP's son too.

[luckydux4]

Maybe he doesn't see a reason for it. Neither did I. It's busy work. I never took notes from reading and made it through West Point and a master's degree. I also hate writing and highlighting in books (damages the merchandise). I would sometimes make a single page of stuff to memorize, from the whole semester, but that hardly qualifies as taking notes for each reading assignment. I've looked at the Cornell Method, and, frankly, wish someone would explain to me why it's worth the bother. :confused:

 

Notes are for lectures, not books.

 

I don't blame him at all.

 

Although I do not have credentials that you do, I only took notes during lectures too. When a hard copy (textbook) of the information is available for reference, it seems unnecessary to take notes.

[Kris]

He is 13 btw. He has bombed his science test due to not knowing what to study for. I am helping him with the notetaking. He has bombed our TOG discussions for lack of memory of what he read. So something has to change. He can't write in the books. So notetaking is the next best. Like Kris said...I want to give him the tools now because he is struggling now.

 

Holly

 

This sounds familiar. ;)

 

Be sure to let us know how he feels and how it goes.

 

I wanted to add that my son fought me on the notetaking, too, on the one hand insisting he didn't need to do it, and then turning around and doing very poorly on a test or being unable to discuss his assignments. So here's another BTDT. You know, I didn't really blame him -- it *was* time-consuming and he didn't seem to be very good at it, or understand what he was supposed to do, even when he did do it. So it was a waste of time.

 

I think it's great that you're "taking the bull by the horns" so to speak. He'll probably thank you later when he realizes how fast and easy it can be.

 

Good luck! And don't forget to let us know! :)

[Kris]

That makes sense. It really wasn't a time saver for me. Hopefully, it will save time (and increase comprehension) for OP's son too.

 

Yes -- now that she's posted more information (and not intending to talk about Holly like she's not here :lol: ), here's hoping that this is a good solution! :)

[Nan in Mass]

It's unnecessary if you can understand the book. If you are having trouble following the book, then taking notes by rephrasing each paragraph (or something) is helpful. You can go back and reread your notes and have the big picture in your own words. Then if you reread the book, you are more likely to be able to follow it. We've found notes useful for great books, too. Taking notes lets us pick up and continue a book that we've dropped for awhile, lets us keep track of ideas that we disagree with or agree with or can't understand to discuss later, lets us keep track of a complicated set of characters, lets us personalize the material with Wow!s or No ways! or How Klingon-like!s... I've underlined or bracketed with coloured pencils (hate highlighters) since college, but there are definately times when writing out a summary or making book notes has been handy, even when I wasn't trying to make a list of the bits I had to memorize.

 

I felt horribly guilty for not making my children learn to take lecture notes, horribly, horribly guilty, but then it turned out that when my oldest got to CC and actually needed to, we'd done enough Kingfisher outlining and study notes from a textbook that he could pick it up within a few classes. And this is the child that I thought would need tons of practice!

-Nan

[Kanga]

Instead of traditional notetaking I let my dc modify notetaking to fit their learning style/personality. My dd would put post-it notes in her book, with key words written on the note, then she would type her notes on the computer. When she studied for a test, she would make a powerpoint presentation of the information for herself. She is now a sophmore in college with a 4.0 GPA and she still uses these methods.

 

My ds (sophmore in high school) remembers best if he writes silly stories/sentences/cartoons of what he is learning. I hope nobody ever looks in his notebook, but it works!

 

I think it is important to give your dc a variety of study methods and let them find what works for them. I don't tie their notetaking style to their grade, but when they were young, if they did poorly on a test I would go over their study technique and suggest changes. We did a lot of experimenting in junior high until they found what worked best for them.

[Holly IN]

hhmmm....I like the post it note idea....I might consider that for Biology. Thanks for the new ideas....

 

Holly

[Nan in Mass]

I hope nobody sees ours, either. They have pictures all over them, pos**** on them, corners chewed off by the cat, arrows pointing every whichway, nothing is spelled right, half the punctuation missing, and tea cup or brownie stains on them. They are definately meant only for the maker LOL.