Socratic dialogue with one student

[Penelope]

I would love to hear thoughts on this and how it works in your home.

 

I really am most interested in how to do this with an older student, say grades 6 or 7 and up, but anything you want to share is great.

 

Things like, how often does it occur as part of structured learning e.g. assigned reading?

 

Do you help the student into making connections if they don't see them through questioning?

 

And what do you do with a preteen or teen who does not show interest in the subject and does not participate as fully as you would like? Do you "mini-lecture" on the topic and try to get them further, or do you just let be what is?

 

How do you know when you doing that teacher thing where you are just trying to get them to see a certain point, vs. making connections of their own while perhaps missing what you think is more important? And how much of Socratic questioning is supposed to be attempting to do exactly that, vs. the more Charlotte Mason idea of letting them get out of it what they will (though as an aside, I think that CM was a lot more about leading students into particular ideas than she is given credit for)?

[Guest]

I have no idea as I am just starting to do dialogue things with DS, but he's my only one so I'm listening in! :bigear:

[MinivanMom]

We started using Socratic dialogue in 5th grade. We use it primarily with our philosophy books (Philosophy for Children, More Philosophy for Children) and with our history (K12 Human Odyssey).

 

The Philosophy books really lend themselves to Socratic discussion, so those are easy. Each chapter has a philosophical question to ponder. I put the question on their weekly checklist so they can think it over during the week, and then we discuss it on Friday. I use lots of open-ended questions and try to move the questions toward some of the main philosophical points in the chapter. Sometimes, though, the conversation goes in an entirely different direction, and that's fine also.

 

For the Human Odyssey books, I plan for us to have a Socratic discussion at the end of each unit. My goal is to draw out the theme or big ideas from those chapters. Ds2 just finished the second unit from the HO1 book, so we were discussing that this morning. The overarching theme is "Ancient Ideas". There were chapters about Hinduism, Buddha, Confucius, the ancient Israelites, and the ancient Greeks. I started with the very open-ended question, "Tell me about this unit," and then moved on to leading questions about how the different beliefs developed, how they influenced those cultures, how the cultures influenced each other, etc. We wound up spending a lot of time discussing similarities and differences between the various cultures, because that was where ds led the conversation. 

 

My goal with Socratic dialogue is to get my kids to think a little deeper and get beyond outlining chapters and learning bare facts. I try not to lecture at all. If a Socratic discussion is going well, then I am only ever asking questions. I do think there's a time and a place for the Charlotte Mason approach of getting out of the way, but for my logic-age kids, I do think it's time to give them a little guidance toward making deeper connections and thinking about some of those big ideas.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

It depends on the subject and the goals. We discuss many subjects every day. In some subjects discussion is the only output required, in others written output is required as well.

 

Do you mean no interest in the subject as a whole or just the topic of the day? If it's just the topic of the day, I wouldn't be too concerned. If it's the subject as a whole, I would reevaluate my approach and try to find a hook that would lure the student.

 

For example, I was worried about dd's interest in chemistry, so I used forensics as the hook.

[deerforest]

We are big discussers here. It's probably the best way to describe my approach to schooling, and I have an only child. She's 2e, gifted with working memory/processing speed issues so it originally was just the best way for her to learn. Her brain was bursting with all these Big Ideas that she wanted to discuss, but she just couldn't make her body produce content in any way except for talking about it. 

 

As she's gotten older, her ability to produce output has increased dramatically, but our approach remains very similar even though she has more independent work.

 

I still read aloud daily, and the topic varies considerably. I do historical fiction, history, science, contemporary fiction, philosophy, anything... We stop and discuss while we read. I ask her what she thinks about what is happening, why it's happening, etc. I don't use lit guides or study guides. I've tried, and it's made learning too artificial for us.

 

I also give her assigned reading in all subjects, and we discuss them. We don't always agree, and I love that. (For example, we have an ongoing debate about mind/brain connections that keeps popping up everywhere.)

 

She has absolutely loved Philosophy for Kids (not sure if it's the same book as previous poster). I started with her just doing one question a week and then we discuss on Fridays. But, she loved it so much she decided to do at least 5 a week! We have these amazing discussions every Friday. 

 

One of her assigned readings this year was "How to Read Literature like a Professor" (kids' version), and we talked about it. I didn't make her start analyzing every book she was reading. But, I asked her for examples in some of her favorite books, and we discussed. She's very interested in finding hidden meaning in books now. It has her questioning intention and meaning in her readings.

 

She absolutely loves poetry discussions, and she has really enjoyed Blackbird's Poetry curriculum this year. They give a nice scaffolding to evaluating specific aspects about a poem which leads to great discussions.

 

DH, DD, and I have a non-fiction family book club. Right now we're all reading "Omnivore's Dilemma" (young person edition) and discussing on Sundays. We ask a lot of open questions, have great discussions, and talk about how it impacts our real life choices. 

 

We watch documentaries, read current science research, attend lectures, and talk and talk and question and discuss. We talk about Big Issues and small ones. 

 

Our entire homeschool existence is based upon critical thinking by way of asking questions and discussing.

[Penelope]

It depends on the subject and the goals. We discuss many subjects every day. In some subjects discussion is the only output required, in others written output is required as well.

 

Do you mean no interest in the subject as a whole or just the topic of the day? If it's just the topic of the day, I wouldn't be too concerned. If it's the subject as a whole, I would reevaluate my approach and try to find a hook that would lure the student.

 

For example, I was worried about dd's interest in chemistry, so I used forensics as the hook.

This is interesting, because I always think about Socratic dialogue for the humanities, but not so much for something like chemistry or physics. I'll have to think about that.

 

I guess I meant no interest in the topic of the day.

 

But I guess what happens more often is not that situations where there is no interest, but what happens when the student is not getting anywhere? Or when they aren't thinking more deeply or critically about something no matter how many questions you ask or how you ask the questions? Do you just assume they are not mature enough to see this thing you are trying to show them, and go ahead and finally point it out? Or do you let it go?

 

By mini-lecture, I mean this, the pointing things out if the conversation isn't getting anywhere.

 

I guess I wonder-- with Socratic dialogue, Socrates (or me! Haha) is asking the questions, but the student is doing much of the talking, and Socrates generally leads the student's thinking by asking the questions. I want to know if that is what it looks like in for homeschoolers and if that is what people mean on this board when they use the term Socratic dialogue, or if they use it more generally to mean a conversation where the student does some extra thinking in response to questioning, but mom also ends up talking a lot and sharing a lot of her own thoughts on things.

 

The latter is usually what happens here. But my oldest child is an eighth grader. I also wonder if this changes with maturity, and if the student does increasingly more of the talking as the years go by. And I'm not sure I would call what we do Socratic, exactly, but rather "discussion" or "conversation." Maybe it's a silly distinction, but to me they seem very different.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Interesting discussion. I don't have a ton to add, except that I intentionally schedule things for us to watch together (teaching videos) and I still read aloud some things to her (mostly science, but poetry, rhetoric, and literature too) so that we can stop and have discussions as we go.  Some days/topics are super fruitful for discussion, others not.  Yesterday a 30 minute video took more than an hour to get through because we kept pausing and talking about it.  It's great when that happens! But when it doesn't I don't sweat it too much.  I will say that this year, 8th grade, is the first year that my dd consistently has interesting, insightful things to say about almost every topic.  In earlier years it was definitely more me leading, pointing things out. Now she comes up with things on her own, even things - insights, connections - I didn't think of.  It goes right along with the big 12-to-13 maturity leap I've seen across the board.  So I think maturity is a huge factor.  But it's also personality/how the individual's mind works.  My 9 year old is capable of much deeper, more interesting insights than her sister was at the same age.  Not because she's smarter or more accelerated in her school subjects - she's not - but because she is a more analytical thinker. Always has been.  To some extent, they are who they are. But you can definitely guide development of the skill of discussion. It takes time though, it's definitely a marathon and not a sprint.

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Interesting discussion. I don't have a ton to add, except that I intentionally schedule things for us to watch together (teaching videos) and I still read aloud some things to her (mostly science, but poetry, rhetoric, and literature too) so that we can stop and have discussions as we go.  Some days/topics are super fruitful for discussion, others not.  Yesterday a 30 minute video took more than an hour to get through because we kept pausing and talking about it.  It's great when that happens! But when it doesn't I don't sweat it too much.  I will say that this year, 8th grade, is the first year that my dd consistently has interesting, insightful things to say about almost every topic.  In earlier years it was definitely more me leading, pointing things out. Now she comes up with things on her own, even things - insights, connections - I didn't think of.  It goes right along with the big 12-to-13 maturity leap I've seen across the board.  So I think maturity is a huge factor.  But it's also personality/how the individual's mind works.  My 9 year old is capable of much deeper, more interesting insights than her sister was at the same age.  Not because she's smarter or more accelerated in her school subjects - she's not - but because she is a more analytical thinker. Always has been.  To some extent, they are who they are. But you can definitely guide development of the skill of discussion. It takes time though, it's definitely a marathon and not a sprint.

 

I was just getting ready to write about the bolded, but Rose did it for me!  :cheers2:   (It sounds like our daughters are similar.)

 

My dd's personality is such that I can't remember ever not having these conversations on some level. It's just who she is. Obviously the discussions are much different at 14 than they were at 4, but they were happening nonetheless.  

 

Knowing what type of student and personality you are working with is an important first step, which it sounds like you've already taken. Some of the suggestions already posted and ones to follow will hopefully help light the rest of the path.

[deerforest]

I was just getting ready to write about the bolded, but Rose did it for me!  :cheers2:   (It sounds like our daughters are similar.)

 

My dd's personality is such that I can't remember ever not having these conversations on some level. It's just who she is. Obviously the discussions are much different at 14 than they were at 4, but they were happening nonetheless.  

 

Knowing what type of student and personality you are working with is an important first step, which it sounds like you've already taken. Some of the suggestions already posted and ones to follow will hopefully help light the rest of the path.

 

That's what I was getting at too. We have this approach to schooling because this just simply who DD is and always has been. 

[Heartsjoy]

I agree it definitely varies  among students. I've had one wanting to discuss connections and why's at age 4 and one at 11.

 

Here's how it's working at our house with a 12, 14, & 16 year old.

I'm using Tapestry of Grace. Each week I assign the reading, fact questions, and thinking questions for literature and history 3-4 days before discussion. I read through the teacher's notes and pick 2-3 meaty questions to enjoy exploring for each discussion. I also highlight the factual information the students need. We typically prime the pump with a few related fact sharing questions.

 

For example we primed the pump by reviewing what makes a civilization vs. just a group of people (specific skilled labor). Then we discussed the geography of ancient Greece. Then we discussed how this geography(isolation, mild climate) led toward the formation of city-states. Then we compared Egypt's geography and type of government. Finally, How did Greece's geography influence development of their language and subsequently their arts? The 12 year-old's eyes lit up when he described how the geography allowed the Greeks time to develop their amazing pottery. The sixteen year old appreciated the connection between geography and the literary achievement of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey.

 

General tips:

 I find the 12 year old benefits from doing venn and comparison charts before attempting to discuss.

 

Also Lost Tools of Writing has a step by step analysis method for should questions. Ex: Should Achilles have made an oath to never rejoin the war? I use these steps in helping the kids get traction on discussions. But only if I've wrestled with it myself.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/01/26/classical-rhetoric-101-the-five-canons-of-rhetoric-invention/

 

Another approach is to lay out the question but take the role of a fellow student.

 

I also model Socratic seminar sentence starters,  and then ask the student to use one or a variation to respond.

http://bolinas-stinson.org/sites/default/files/Socratic%20Seminar%20(Sentence%20Starters%20handout).pdf

 

Hope these ideas help,

Melody

 

[MinivanMom]

The discussions come really naturally with dd; she tends to like to talk about everything.

 

It doesn't come as naturally with ds. I know that when I first started Socratic discussions with him, I sometimes had to prod him along a little. He isn't much of a talker; he's more of a get-it-done type of kid, and he was always watching me to see if his responses were "right". At this point he's really enjoying the discussions, and he gets that all ideas are valid even if I am leading the discussion in a particular direction.

[Penelope]

Interesting that personality was brought up. I do think that personality or development or both affect how the student responds and when, and of course how they think and what they think deeply about.

 

But I think that the method would be pretty similar across the board. My children have different personalities, but Socratic questioning is a particular way of going about things, no?

 

And asking questions rather than just telling them everything does come naturally to me. It is when they bump up against limits in their knowledge or just kind of dead-end for whatever reason, that I am not always going to leave it there, but give them more information, or help them make some kind of connection. Sometimes that could happen through asking more questions, but sometimes it can't.

 

I am struggling with the question of what Socratic dialogue really is, or means now. It seems that in borrowing the term from the ancient writings, it has morphed and been adapted. Is the questioner also a participant in the discussion? In today's contexts, it seems yes, they are, and in some contexts pretty much have to be. But then how much participation before it becomes something else?

 

Here is a video (it's a long video, but I only watched part of it) posted as an example of Socratic teaching. *There is Christian content. *

http://insideclassicaled.com/?p=384

The teacher facilitates a discussion beginning with open-ended questions, but then he does help the students out when they seem to get stuck or when there are no more responses. And he is along the way giving them more information, and clearly leading them somewhere and has certain goals in mind, even if the discussion ends up going to other places. It reminds me of discussions from the better courses in my school days and clearly (IMO) this is a skilled teacher. At home with my one or two students, it is obviously going to look different, but I think what I do in conversation with my kids is similar. So maybe what I do at home could be called Socratic, some of the time.

 

Here's another example. The Teaching the Classics program has a list of "Socratic questions" that are very good, to facilitate discussion of children's literature. TWTM has some similar questions about literature but I don't think the Socratic method is mentioned. Does using the questions make for a Socratic dialogue? Is it Socratic if a question is asked, with other questions for follow-up based on the students's answers, but really the parent is leading the student in a certain direction and interjects to that effect, when needed? Or would most people say it is only Socratic if it is completely open-ended? Or maybe it doesn't matter in the end! lol. I just got very curious about this recently since the term is used so much in classical ed.

[Arcadia]

My hubby does discussions of radio broadcasts in our drive to our kids german class. We would usually be listening to John Tesh Morning Show and hubby would discuss in a similar style to the link on socratic questioning.

http://www.umich.edu/~elements/5e/probsolv/strategy/cthinking.htm

 

He does plenty of discussions with them on car rides while I get to nap if I want to. He would ask questions like "what do you think ...", "why do you think ..."