Teaching Textbooks - worst case scenario

[Moni]

I've tried to search the archives and read some old notes.

 

Criticisms include the problems are easy and the publisher tends to run behind by at least a semester or year.

 

I'd like some comments as to the Worst Case Scenario if we use TT through PreCalculus.

 

Homeschooled kids around here go to local Community College for math during high school and the college does a eval/test for math placement so transcript and prior coursework isn't a consideration.

 

Would you say it would be that a student who took

TT Algebra 2

TT Geometry, and

TT PreCalc

 

would probably test back into PreCalc at the college level?

 

The colleges here tend to use Sullivan, Thomas Finney for PreCalc and Calc which are supposed to be respectable texts.

 

My interest lies more at the point of completion of TT PreCalc . . .not so much what's in each book at what level.

 

I am thinking that the horrible thing of it all would be that the students would have to Take PreCalc at the community college.

And I'd be okay with that.

I am thinking it wouldn't exactly be 'repeating' as the Sullivan text course would I expect entail more than the TT PreCalc

 

So I'm tempted to consider TT, but I just wanted to know what else I might be missing.

 

Thank you.

[8filltheheart]

Well, I can't answer your question specifically, but I can give you our scenerio.

 

My 19 yos is an extremely strong math student. He completed Foerster alg 1, Larson geo, and (unfortunately) Saxon alg 2. I tried to start him with Foerster pre-cal but it starts ahead of where he finished with Saxon. My pre-cal skills were not strong enough to decipher the discrepancies. I hired a private tutor who doubled up with him the first month and had him work through the Larson pre-cal book. (That is the book she uses and they finished the book the end of his 11th grade yr)

 

He ended up testing in into pre-cal 2 at a engineering university that used the Sullivan book. He was fine and ended up making the highest A in the class.

 

All that said.....I consider every textbook he used as significantly superior to TT.

 

HTH

[Moni]

Thank you for your scenario. Wow, you really jumped publishers a lot. I am thinking I may want to avoid that.

 

It seems students who do PreCalc in homeschool still test into PreCalc at the colleges. It's the same with our Public School kids here. High scores in precac at the PS but test right back into PreCalc at the college.

 

I'll have to think about this more. :) I will end up choosing the most-independent type of program (without a Paid Tutor) so that is a big factor for us.

[Kris]

We haven't used TT, but I was considering it. I decided not to because Jann in TX -- the resident math guru! -- says that, with TT Alg 1 and TT Alg 2, you aren't really getting all the algebra. After completing the two courses, you only have actually done Algebra 1 and -- I'm thinking she said -- about 30 lessons of Algebra 2.

 

I was *still* considering it, because she said TT is easier than, say, Lials, which is what I ended up choosing. This sounded pretty good because my son is having trouble with Algebra. But at this point, we aren't sure if he's "math challenged" or it was the Saxon program we were using.

 

I know this doesn't really answer your question, but I hope it helps a bit!

[Kris]

Oh -- and I should probably add that he's taken all of the assessment tests for the various programs -- MUS, Saxon, etc., etc., and according to *them* he should be ready for Algebra 1 -- but he's struggling with it.

[8filltheheart]

Foerster does not have a geometry program. My other kids have used Foerster alg 1, 2 different geo programs...one used Jacobs and the other 2 are currently using CD's new geo. Then it's back to Foerster.

 

If he had used Foerster alg 2 and pre-cal, I believe he probably would have placed directly into cal.

 

You don't say what career goals your child has, but if it is one heavy in math (my ds is a chemical engineering major), you might want to consider looking at CD. It has a very high resale value and Mr. Mosely is available for any questions your child has that aren't answered in the videos/texts.

[Michelle in MO]

a while back someone on these boards had an excellent post about how she had used TT more as a pre-algebra program, and after her dc finished TT they were able to move into a regular algebra program quite readily and do very well. TT had a simplified method of explaining some of these concepts, and although it wasn't rigorous enough (according to this mom, I believe) as an algebra program, it did work well for pre-algebra.

 

Help, anyone?

 

(BTW: Momof7, I love your new avatar! I'm thinking it's Disney, but I can't remember which character?!?)

[Kris]

(BTW: Momof7, I love your new avatar! I'm thinking it's Disney, but I can't remember which character?!?)

 

Is it the Mad Hatter? I *know* it's from Disney's Alice in Wonderland. :)

[asta]

My son is using Systematic Mathematics for algebra (it goes all the way through pre-calc, but doesn't have geometry). It is a DVD/worksheet program. You get a disc of .pdfs to print out the worksheets as you need them. You don't have to print out the answers, you can just look at them on the disc.

 

We used his lower level program as well. With the exception of a couple of glitches (every so often the teacher makes an arithmetic mistake or the answer book is wrong), we have found it to be excellent.

 

It is "old math". If you were to buy the entire algebra program, 1-4, it would cost you $138.

 

 

asta

[Kareni]

... It seems students who do PreCalc in homeschool still test into PreCalc at the colleges. It's the same with our Public School kids here. High scores in precalc at the PS but test right back into PreCalc at the college.

 

Not always! My daughter placed into and took College Algebra and subsequently Trigonometry at the Community College and made As in each class. Her progression at home was Lial's Beginning Algebra, Jacobs' Geometry, and Lial's Intermediate Algebra.

 

I wish I could remember who it was who posted this, but a while back someone on these boards had an excellent post about how she had used TT more as a pre-algebra program, and after her dc finished TT they were able to move into a regular algebra program quite readily and do very well.

 

Yes, I also thought of that post on reading the query above. The post was by Carmen_and_Company. See her posts within this thread:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35062&highlight=storm+math.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Moni]

says that, with TT Alg 1 and TT Alg 2, you aren't really getting all the algebra. After completing the two courses, you only have actually done Algebra 1

 

Hi Kris,

 

Good point. I am actually though asking about the end of TT PreCalculus. Because by then the topics are supposed to be covered.

 

You aren't there yet either? :)

[Moni]

TT more as a pre-algebra program, and after her dc finished TT )

 

Oh, that's an idea.

Is this then

TT PreAlgebra

 

or the

TT Algebra 1

TT Algebra 2

TT Geometry

TT PreCalculus

 

and then back into a More Typical Algebra 1 course?

 

I'm not sure I'm following you.

[Kris]

Good point. I am actually though asking about the end of TT PreCalculus. Because by then the topics are supposed to be covered.

 

Oops! Sorry! That attention span thing again. :lol:

 

You aren't there yet either? :)

 

 

Not yet -- but I am optimistic. :D

[Moni]

Oops! Sorry! That attention span thing again. :lol:. :D

 

:-)

 

But a good point anyway . . . :seeya:

[Moni]

and Mr. Mosely is available for any questions your child has that aren't answered in the videos/texts.

.

 

Oh, that's right . . .is that telephone support?

 

And I did see CarmenCo's note about TT A1 A2 for Pre-Algebra. Interesting. We've already done Saxon Algebra-1 here, so I am really just thinking Algebra-2, Geom, PreCalc from here on out.

 

I did see a Chalkdust text A2 text and it had so many problems . . . .which to assign. . . didn't seem independent enough

:confused1: Perhaps Mr. Mosely has a list of minimum To Do problems or something like that.

 

 

 

:seeya:

[Michelle in MO]

Oh, that's an idea.

Is this then

TT PreAlgebra

 

or the

TT Algebra 1

TT Algebra 2

TT Geometry

TT PreCalculus

 

and then back into a More Typical Algebra 1 course?

 

I'm not sure I'm following you.

 

It was earlier this summer, I believe, and it was a very good discussion on how she used TT. I used Lial's, not TT, so I wouldn't be able to help you on how to implement TT; I just remember the thread. It was a very good discussion, and Carmen & Co. was able to use TT in a way that worked well for their family.

[LynnG in Arizona]

Since your specific question was about where a student likely would be at the end of TT Pre-Calc, I'll pipe in with our experience. We find TT Algebra I and Algebra II to be good overall, though admittedly Algebra II seems to move slowly and have a lot of review.

 

The Pre-Calc book jumps signficiantly in pace, breadth, and difficulty.

 

Overall, we have been happy with TT. We've now used Alg I and Geometry and are in the middle (with 2 different students) of Alg II and Pre-Calc. I am well aware of the criticisms that have been leveled about TT, and have posted before on the subject.

 

All I know is that our eldest daughter did quite well on her math SAT after using TT for several years, and is currently working hard on Pre-Calc.

 

I acknowledge the fact that TT might not be the most challenging math series out there, but I think it is a solid preparation for most college-bound students.

 

The advice I usually give to my homeschooling friends is that if they have a math-oriented student on their hands who is likely to go into engineering or a similar field, by all means do the most rigorous math program they can find. For the rest of us, I think Teaching Textbooks is fine - especially at the pre-calc level. My physician husband, who also has a strong math background, has reviewed TT and happens to agree with me.

 

I went through 2 semesters of calculus myself, and find the TT Pre-Calc book to be very similar to what I remember from my pre-calculus textbook from 23 years ago.

 

Does that help at all? :)

 

Lynn

[Guest Katia]

My 11th grade dd is using TT PreCalc this year. She has used TT Algebra 1, Algebra 2 and Geometry.

 

What we are doing is using the TT books, but naming our courses differently. So, it goes something like this:

 

8th grade - Pre-Algebra (use TT Algebra 1 text) she used Saxon Algebra 1/2 in 7th

 

9th grade - Algebra 1 ( use TT Algebra 2 text)

 

10th grade - Geometry (use TT Geometry) I was worried that she would forget her algebra so we got Life of Fred Advanced Algebra for her to do for 'fun'. She LOVES LOF!

 

She worked on LOF Advanced Algebra and added LOF Geometry over the summer because she just loved doing them.

 

11th grade - Algebra 2 - (use TT Trig/PreCalc) finish LOF Advanced Algebra and Geometry and add on LOF Trigonometry

 

I don't feel dd *needs* to do the LOF, but she loves it so much that she begged me to continue. What's a mom to do? I did ask if she thought she learned more, better with LOF than TT and she said "NO" (emphatically) that she did NOT want to drop TT as she felt it really helped her. She just likes the blend of both programs, so that is what we are doing.

 

I will have her take the community college placement test at the end of this year, and see what cc math class she tests into after all of this. Honestly, I'm not sure I'll have her take a cc math class in 12th grade. We may just go with LOF Calculus and/or LOF Statistics. I think it's *rigorous* enough.

 

Also, she will take her ACT at the end of this year. It will be interesting to see how she scores in math.

[Alyce]

TT Pre-Calculus has only been out one year and that's only the books not the CD's. I know many people who wanted to use it but didn't because the CD's weren't there. Now at the end of this year there should be a lot of people who can chime in and let you know how it's gone.

 

I can' only speak of TT through the Geometry my son did. He found it very easy and I didn't think it had as much info as even MUS did (MY dd took this). Because of that we've switched to Lial's. If there are enough good reviews then at the end of this year we might switch back but I just don't feel like it's been used enough to give it a fair evaluation.

[LynnG in Arizona]

TT Pre-Calculus has only been out one year and that's only the books not the CD's. I know many people who wanted to use it but didn't because the CD's weren't there. Now at the end of this year there should be a lot of people who can chime in and let you know how it's gone.

 

I can' only speak of TT through the Geometry my son did. He found it very easy and I didn't think it had as much info as even MUS did (MY dd took this). Because of that we've switched to Lial's. If there are enough good reviews then at the end of this year we might switch back but I just don't feel like it's been used enough to give it a fair evaluation.

 

As a matter of fact, we just received (most) of the TT Pre-Calc. CDs in the mail yesterday. I believe the final CDs are due in another month or so.

[LisaNY]

a while back someone on these boards had an excellent post about how she had used TT more as a pre-algebra program, and after her dc finished TT they were able to move into a regular algebra program quite readily and do very well. TT had a simplified method of explaining some of these concepts, and although it wasn't rigorous enough (according to this mom, I believe) as an algebra program, it did work well for pre-algebra.

 

Help, anyone?

 

(BTW: Momof7, I love your new avatar! I'm thinking it's Disney, but I can't remember which character?!?)

 

It was Carmen & Co. (formerly Taz & Storm's Mom). :001_smile:

[LoriM]

I'm probably the exception...but I think TT is just fine for the "at home" portion of math education, particularly if your student is planning to go to the community college. Yes, your student may find herself taking PreCalculus at the CC. She might even find herself taking College Algebra and then PreCalculus. My own daughter followed a unique path to her place in life today...

 

Saxon Algebra 1/2 (age 12)

Saxon Algebra 1 (age 13)

Jacobs Geometry

A Beka Algebra II

MUS Trigonometry

Intro to Statistics

Larson, et al Calculus (we did Calc I at home)

College Algebra

PreCalculus

Calc I

Statistics (and got her AA in high school)...

then she's taken Calc II, Calc III, Linear Algebra and is taking a Transitions to Higher Math (all proofs) class this semester. She's working on a BA in mathematics, and has a 4.0 in her college coursework.

 

Sooooo, I don't think publisher-surfing hurt her, and I don't think it was a big deal that she "backed up" to College Algebra when she started dual enrollment at age 16. She never really finished ANY of the books we did at home, or even really did math on a daily basis (3-4 days a week was the best we did, and even then, one year she did almost NO math...).

 

The road to college math has many lanes. GRIN.

 

Lori