TT Alg. I is not working out. What should a "non-math" mom do?

[LBC]

I don't know Algebra. I've been trying to learn it, but my schedule is quite full (4 kids - all homeschooling - plus I run my dh's business home office), and I find it difficult to put it high on my priority list.

 

A year ago I put dd (14) into school because she was struggling so much with Algebra. I thought a classroom environment with a "qualified" teacher would be helpful. As it turned out, she hated school, and is now back home, but we're in the same place with her Algebra. She's consistently getting between 60% - 70% on her exercises. She said that she doesn't enjoy the style of TT, and finds it very distracting. We used Singapore until we started Algebra, and she did much better with that, although it did lack review.

 

I read the post about using Foerster's Algebra with Math Without Borders. It looks like it might be an option. Dd took a look at the sample MWB lessons, and said she thought she would like it.

 

Would that combination work well for a non-math daughter and her non-math mother? I have two math/science oriented boys coming up next, so I need to be ready for them as well.

 

Any suggestions would be helpful. Even if you need to tell me that I can't homeschool through highschool unless I learn Algebra, I'll listen :tongue_smilie:

 

Lori

[PamJH]

I used Abeka pre-algebra and Saxon 8/7 (which has a lot of pre-algebra in it) with my daughter who is now a sophomore. Saxon drove her to tears so we abandoned it in favor of Spectrum 8th grade math workbook. There wasn't much pre-algebra in that, but at least it got her through the rest of the year. But, mind you, she was in 8th grade doing pre-algebra and according to WTM, most kids should have algebra 1 in 8th grade if they possibly can.

 

I tried Abeka for 9th grade. We slogged through the year with her younger brother doing as well or better than she did. She managed a low B by the skin of her teeth.

 

On the advice of many on this board (I looked up old threads), we're now using Life of Fred for Algebra 1. This program, while not thrilling my kids, is at least doing the job. Google "Life of Fred" to find the book's author and web site. We sometimes supplement with extra problems from Algebra 1 workbook for Dummies, which oddly enough, is also quite thorough and offers a lot of practice that doesn't feel overwhelming. I'd hesitate to recommend the Dummies workbook as your sole source, however. I'm not sure how that would look if a college (or high school if she ever goes back) would view that.

 

Much of Life of Fred can be done by the student alone. However, I learned not to leave my kids completely on their own with it because math confuses them so. There is no video component, but I think most all his books come with a Home Companion that contains extra problems. I'd recommend getting that for the extra practice.

 

LOF lessons are done in small, bite-size chunks. The math is told in a story fashion that isn't too cute or annoying. It also doesn't pander or try to be cool. Check the old threads on WTM if you're interested. Many people have been using the program for a while.

 

The rest of our tale: My daughter is now a sophomore and so is one year behind in her math. Most colleges she's interested in would like to see four years of math. Since she received no credit for doing pre-algebra in 9th grade, she'll have to do some makeup work during the summer to catch up.

[Moni]

consistently getting between 60% - 70% on her exercises.

 

 

I would have her just repeat lessons.

 

I would have her do her Mon-Fri this week.

I would grade the paper, and mark the wrong ones.

 

I would then give her a list of her wrong problems so she could watch the problems she missed (just watch, not do)

 

Then then after watching the problems videos (all six or eight of them)

Then I would have her return to her desk and re-try the problems she missed.

 

And then I would grade the re-do's and repeat the process until eventually all the wrongs ones are correct.

 

Do this Mon-Fri

 

Then next week, I would assign the Same Mon-Fri assignments.

 

Same process for making her Corrections.

 

And then see how it went by the second Friday.

 

I would be tempted to do this again a 3rd week if she were still scoring 70%.

 

The goals is to learn to do the math, not to move on through the book.

 

:-)

[LBC]

I would have her just repeat lessons.

 

 

 

Before sending her to school last year, I had her re-do chapter 3 of TT 1 three times, and she still kept scoring about 60% on her end of chapter test. I spent an entire Saturday learning the material, which enabled me to figure out what she was doing wrong. It turned out to be an issue with negative numbers, and since she didn't cover that in chapter 3, she hadn't been able to identify the problem.

 

More than a year later we are running into the same problems. She is now on chapter 4. She began this year with a great attitude, and was so proud of herself for staying focused on her math lesson and getting it done in a reasonable amount of time. When I marked her math and told her how she did, she was very disappointed. She's been re-reading the lessons, and gone through a few of the solutions on the CD ROM. She's not improving so far - she's actually scoring lower. I could have her spend the next couple of weeks going over the material again (I've told her she can't continue until she figures out what's wrong, or she'll just be practicing the wrong way of doing it). This is why I'm wondering if it's the program that's the problem, and not just our approach. I know it's a good program, but she's a very creative, dreamy, English & History oriented girl. Perhaps all the "help" provided in the TT program is becoming a distraction to her, rather than a help.

 

The one good thing about tackling this problem is that we now know that school is not the solution, and we are committed to making this work.

 

Thoughts??

 

Lori

[Michelle in MO]

isn't always optimum, but perhaps a different style of teaching would help? Chalkdust worked fairly well for my oldest last year, and that was after two years of doing Lial's Introductory Algebra and Intermediate Algebra.

 

Here is their webpage, and you can call them for a free DVD evaluation sampler. That way perhaps you and your dd could sit down and watch the lesson together and see if it "clicks" better than TT Algebra I. Also, Dana Moseley is available by e-mail and sometimes even by phone to answer questions. Sometimes having a real live math teacher is very helpful!

 

Is there any math tutoring available in your area? I hired a math tutor while my oldest was doing Intermediate Algebra. We only saw him once a week---in retrospect it would have been helpful if he could have come to our house daily. Of course, this could be costly as well, and may not even be feasible or possible in your area. Just a thought.

[LisaNY]

We are having success with Foerster's/Math Without Borders so far. We are only on ch. 1, so take this FWIW. I viewed the first 3 chapters on the CD, and David Chandler's teaching is consistently methodical and thorough. My dd likes the teaching style and the layout of the text.

 

My dd (13), also enjoyed Singapore and did very well with it. She is also more of an English/writing kind of girl. Neither one of us is very mathy.

 

Keep in mind that the online samples do not accurately reflect the video quality. It is much better than that.

[JFSinIL]

Videotext is another good option for non-math parents. BUT - since you have already invested the $$$ in TT - she should stick with it. If she is scoring too low - she has to retake the lesson. No one said every subject in school was going to be fun or easy. For some of us, math is stinkin' hard and a pain in the butt. If you can afford to start over with VT - you can probably get the first module used on the sale boards, and let her try it to see if the difference between VT and TT is worth switching. if not - I would not keep jumping from program to program. Algebra will just be a hard subject she has to work at to get through.

[Quiver0f10]

I second the recommendation for Chalk Dust. My 8th grader has really struggled with math and is doing well with CD so far this year. If there is somethign she doesn't get, she just rewatches the DVD and usually gets it.

[Sandy in Indy]

I think I'd have her view ALL of the solutions to the missed problems. One of the strengths of TT (IMHO) is that the solution CD tells you the "why" of the next step. Perhaps that would help with her understanding.

[threetreasurs]

Sounds like you have given TT Alg I a good try and things are at a stand still. Have you considered a program like ALEKS. Perhaps your daughter has gaps in basic math that are holding her back and needs to catch up a bit before moving forward with Alg? You can try ALEKS free for one month while you continued to investigate programs.

[Nan in Mass]

I concluded that he just can't be left to do math on his own. He gets the wrong idea about something and then after even a few weeks, he has lots of wrong ideas and it becomes very difficult to straighten him out. Usually, he will do the current lesson right, but old things wrong because he misremembers them or didn't really understand them in the first place. The only way to fix this that I've found is to do math with him every day. We go over the lesson together, then he does each problem checking the solution IMMEDIATELY after each one. If he got it wrong, he tries it again to see if he's just copied something wrong or made a careless error. If he still gets it wrong, then he looks at the solution guide and sees how they do it. Then he shuts the book and tries it himself. If he still gets it wrong, he comes and sees me and I walk him through it and straighten out the misconceptions. It used to be that I myself had to correct each problem after he had done it, but he is older now and can use the solutions guide. I don't think it would matter which program we used (except a particularly confusing one) as long as the program explained the why behind things and contained solutions for every problem.

 

I think you are doing the right thing not letting your child practise things the wrong way, and you obviously aren't too much of a non-math person if you could figure out what the real problem was, but I certainly understand why you don't have time to learn the algebra yourself. I already knew algebra pretty well, so all I had to do was read the book aloud and I remembered and could help my son. I deliberately picked a program that wasn't a video program so that it would force me to keep up with my children's math so I could help them.

 

I'm not sure what you should do as a solution. I just wanted to tell you that I think you are doing something right, at least, and that maybe you have one of those students who just isn't going to be able to teach themselves math, even with a video program. They might need more help than that.

 

Good luck!

-Nan

[LBC]

Dd is almost in tears at the thought of continuing with TT, but I'm thinking that I might do it anyway. We can afford to switch programs, but having options isn't always the best thing. I just need to commit to learning it with her, and then it won't be so unbearable for her. I can do math with her while the younger kids are having their lunch break. It's only our second week of school for the year, so we're not far into things yet - meaning it shouldn't be too difficult for me to catch up with her. With two math oriented boys coming up through the ranks, it will be a worthwhile time investment for me to learn this subject. I am capable of learning math. I do all the bookkeeping for dh's business, and I'm actually fairly good with numbers. I was a wild teenager, and my parents weren't paying much attention, so I ended up in the nonacademic stream in high school. It sure would have been easier to learn it back then rather than now, at the age of 43!

 

We will probably choose a different program for geometry next year, but we will keep plugging away at TT until we complete this text.

 

My life doesn't always allow me to spend time on the boards these days, but I sure appreciate the insight that I find here when I need it! You ladies are great!

 

Lori

[Moni]

Would you want to have her run through Aleks also?

There is a free month code.

 

It's very common for students to have problems in Algebra because they haven't mastered the Earlier Stuff (such as negative numbers, etc.)

 

I would have her just keep repeating the same week after week until she can do the work.

And have her start back in 4th grade in Aleks and see where her gaps.

 

In which steps of the problems does she make her errors?

If she does the same week for four weeks in a row her scores should eventually improve.

 

I'd be most interested which step of the problem her mistakes are first made.

[Nan in Mass]

Doesn't Aleks assume that once a gap has been filled it will stay filled? I know with my sons, even the math-bright one, their knowledge base is inconsistent; one week they might know negative numbers well, then a week later they might have forgotten, and then the following week, even without me doing anything about it, they will have remembered again. Would a program like Aleks be able to figure out that 2 years after it taught negative numbers (or even 2 weeks), an excersize was done wrong not because of the current material but because of a gap? Wouldn't it simply have my son repeat the current lesson? It seems like my children would have to take the placement test daily to see what they are remembering today for the program to work LOL. How can it tell what the problem is if it can't look at my child's work? I can see how it might be able to tell in some cases by which answer my child gave, but my children are truly creative groan about their errors sometimes. It seems like Aleks might spend tons of time reteaching something that could be accomplished by a quick reminder, or not enough time reteaching something that truly wasn't understood in the first place. Sometimes it is tricky even for me in person to tell the difference.

-Nan

[threetreasurs]

ALEKS tests on a regular basis and puts missed items back on the list of things to learn. You also don't have to go back to the fourth grade. Whatever course you sign up for, the student starts with a 'smart' diagnostic test to determine what the students does and does not remember.

 

It is not a perfect program by any means (none are) but does work well at finding and working on gaps in the math knowledge base.

[Moni]

ALEKS tests on a regular basis and puts missed items back on the list of things to learn

 

Aleks isn't that nice to the kids, in that once something is learned it files it away forever :glare:

This is why kids "like Aleks" at first but then after a while they "don't like it anymore" and the parents quit the Aleks.

;)

 

Aleks will re-assess your student at frequent intervals and if not frequent enough, parent can go into the Parent Page on Aleks and click something that forces (another) assessment next time the student logs in. And the student has no way around it but to take the assessment again. No other screen options are available.

 

This all said,

I'm curious what your student did ( the OP's student) the last 3 years form math, in what book, what method, that all of a sudden she is hitting a wall in the Algebra? :confused:

There is always the possibility she is in the Wrong Level too.

[threetreasurs]

Well I certainly don't want to get into a shooting match about ALEKS, but we used it for all of last year and it definitely adds things back in if they are missed on tests. The parent can also request retesting anytime they want.

[mktkcb]

I'll put my 2c in for Aleks also. We've been using it for about 2-3 months. My dd doesn't *love* it, but she does it. At least I know that she can't get away with learning and then forgetting, because the program won't let her. Heh heh. I personally could not keep up with what she really did and did not know. It would seem like she was "getting it", then she would bomb tests again and again. Aleks keeps total accountability. They either know it or they don't.

[Kathleen in VA]

I'm not trying to throw a wrench in the works here, honest, but I think it's just possible your daughter may not be neurologically ready to do the higher thinking that algebra requires. I was 14 in 9th grade and I had a very difficult time with algebra. I had no trouble when I was 18 and took algebra in college. I remember thinking how it all made so much sense as my teacher in 9th grade was explaining it during class time. I felt sure I understood it. Then I would go home and be at a complete loss. I studied for the tests but my mind would go blank when the test was before me.

 

The kind of thinking needed to understand algebra comes with neurological development and just as children learn to read at all different ages, some teens just need more time before algebra clicks. Perhaps she just needs to take a pre-algebra course (again?) to cement the basics of math before she tries algebra again.

[Moni]

ALEKS, but we used it for all of last year and it definitely adds things back in if they are missed on tests. The parent can also request retesting anytime they want.

.

 

;)

Yes, this was my understanding too.

[threetreasurs]

;)

Yes, this was my understanding too.

 

Yeah and if I could read I probably would have realized that.:blush:

[Moni]

Yeah and if I could read I probably would have realized that.:blush:

 

;)

Oh, I was just trying to agree with you. You seemed to state it more clearly that I did

 

:seeya::

[LBC]

I'm curious what your student did ( the OP's student) the last 3 years form math, in what book, what method, that all of a sudden she is hitting a wall in the Algebra? :confused:

There is always the possibility she is in the Wrong Level too.

 

Dd started math with Saxon. Being my first, and somewhat of a guinea pig, we experimented with a few programs in the early grades until we found Singapore Math. By this time she was in about grade 4. She did Singapore until part way through 6a, and then I was finding it difficult to find the time to teach it properly. I switched her to TT Pre-Algebra at that point. She didn't have any problems with that. It wasn't until she started TT Algebra 1 that she began to stuggle. In February of 2007 I put her in school (7th grade). At this point most of the math was review, and she did fairly well. We're in Canada, so the things they cover at each grade level are slightly different. They don't focus on Algebra and then Geometry. There's a mixture, and a lot of statistics and probablility. When she came home from school she hadn't really made any progress, so we picked up where we left off with TT Alg. 1.

 

Lori

[Kathleen in VA]

Dd started math with Saxon. Being my first, and somewhat of a guinea pig, we experimented with a few programs in the early grades until we found Singapore Math. By this time she was in about grade 4. She did Singapore until part way through 6a, and then I was finding it difficult to find the time to teach it properly. I switchted her to TT Pre-Algebra at that point. She didn't have any problems with that. It wasn't until she started TT Algebra 1 that she began to stuggle. In February of 2007 I put her in school (7th grade). At this point most of the math was review, and she did fairly well. We're in Canada, so the things they cover at each grade level are slightly different. They don't focus on Algebra and then Geometry. There's a mixture, and a lot of statistics and probablility. When she came home from school she hadn't really made any progress, so we picked up where we left off with TT Alg. 1.

 

Lori

 

 

Lori,

 

Most of the TT pre-algebra is just plain ol' math review. I'd skip to the chapters that introduce the ideas she will deal with in Algebra I and have her repeat those as a way of reinforcing them while also giving her a chance to regain some confidence in math altogether. (I just grabbed the book and found that the algebra concepts begin in chapter 10 - that is where I would start.)

 

Once she has done that she ought to be girded up enough to tackle the Algebra I book. If she still has trouble, I'd just put it all on the back burner and come back to it in six months or so to give her brain a chance to develop neurologically. Have her make a quilt (lots of math involved in that). Or have her read about mathematicians (Fibonacci is fascinating, for instance). There are other ways to work math into every day life so she will not be completely abandoning the subject - she will just spend some time applying what she already knows.

 

I am not saying she is not a bright girl - her brain just may not have developed to the point of being able to deal with the abstract concepts (negative numbers, for instance) she's been finding in Algebra. We allow time for our younger kids when they struggle with reading - I don't see why the same approach wouldn't work for an older child struggling with math. Kids at this age are still growing and they all grow at different rates.

 

Oh, and I haven't actually seen a Life of Fred Algebra book, but they are relatively inexpensive and it couldn't hurt to see if a more "right-brained" approach to the subject might be the ticket. For the price, I'd at least give that a try.

[langfam]

I have to agree with Kathleen about the possibility of not being developmentally ready for Alg. DS struggled with Jacob's Algebra last year, so repeating this year with Chalkdust. Granted it's only been a month, but he hasn't shown any signs of frustration he had in the past and is actually enjoying the course. Also, he's been writing essays with ease this year while he struggled with it last year, so I'm guessing it was just a developmental issue with him.

[AngieW in Texas]

I would try using aleks for one month with the free trial code. It can't hurt and it might help. It will at least show you where there are holes and then she can work on those areas. My middle dd tried Aleks, but didn't like it at all. The thing that frustrated her was that when she missed a problem, it took her right back to the explanation that she didn't understand the first time and expected her to magically understand it the second time through.

 

I really like Kinetic Books Algebra. It is very thorough. Many of the problems have immediate feedback and on most of those problems you can have it step you through to the answer rather than just show you the complete solution. If you can figure out the problem based on just the next step, then you can enter your answer and go from there.

 

It's inexpensive compared to most programs - $50 for a one-year subscription. Their free trial is only three days though.

 

Their end of unit problems are to be completed with pencil and paper. Only the odd answers are supplied for those, but I've found that to be plenty of problems. I even have my dd do every-other-odd sometimes when the number of problems is overkill.

 

All that Kinetic Books currently has is Algebra I, but they will be releasing Algebra II this schoolyear. I think Pre-Algebra is next on their development list.

[LBC]

I really like Kinetic Books Algebra. It is very thorough. Many of the problems have immediate feedback and on most of those problems you can have it step you through to the answer rather than just show you the complete solution. If you can figure out the problem based on just the next step, then you can enter your answer and go from there.

 

It's inexpensive compared to most programs - $50 for a one-year subscription. Their free trial is only three days though.

 

Their end of unit problems are to be completed with pencil and paper. Only the odd answers are supplied for those, but I've found that to be plenty of problems. I even have my dd do every-other-odd sometimes when the number of problems is overkill.

 

 

 

Are you actually using this program? I really like the way it seems to give immediate feedback for each mistake. Part of the difficulty dd is having is that she does an entire lesson before I mark it, and with three younger children to work with it can sometimes be a day or two before the marking gets done. By this time it's very difficult to make the connection between the mistakes and how to fix it. She's not really at a maturity level that can check the answer for each problem as she goes, and self-teach (which is what I need to do in order to learn Algebra).

 

I'd like to hear more about this program from people who are using it.

 

Lori

[Carol in Cal.]

You're being the tutor. You're finding the patterns in her errors. And you're helping her resolve those.

 

Now, if she has lots of pre-algebra that it turns out that she hasn't learned yet, this is going to be one tough year for her. I'm wondering whether she would be better off going back to a pre-algebra or easy algebra book at this point, to solidify her background knowlege.

 

As best as I can surmise, Teaching Textbooks is the easiest algebra out there. It sounds like it doesn't really cover all of Algebra 1 in the Algebra 1 year, and it supposedly spreads the material out a lot more than most programs. I have looked at Video Text quite a bit, and I think that it is MUCH harder than Teaching Textbooks. I don't see how you could switch to VT if she is having so much trouble with TT.

 

I'm wondering whether Saxon Algebra 1/2 would be a better fit for your daughter this year, if you are not comfortable continuing to tutor her as you have been doing so far. It's considered a good remedial year between pre-algebra and Algebra 1, for students who are not quite ready for Algebra 1 but have already more or less covered pre-algebra.

 

The other thing I'm wondering is whether you could find a tutor who would test her on just the pre-requisite skills for Algebra, and work in parallel with her algebra 1 assignments to make sure that she gets enough review in those to enable her to keep up with your TT curriculum.

[AngieW in Texas]

My dd has been using it for a full year now. She started it in August last year at the start of 7th grade. She was actually using two complete programs - Kinetic Books and Jacobs. She switched back and forth at the end of each chapter. Once she got to the exponents chapter in Jacobs, that stopped. She was completely lost by the exponents section in Jacobs. She thought she understood and then she did the entire lesson incorrectly. At that point, she decided to do the exponents chapter in Kinetic Books (it was chapter 8 in Jacobs, but chapter 9 in Kinetic Books). With Kinetic Books, she did lots and lots of problems with immediate feedback and also played with their interactive model. By the time she got to the pencil and paper problems at the end of each unit, she was completely clear on the concepts and knew that she was completely clear. She rarely misses more than 5-6% of the problems at the end of the units. Even then, her errors are usually caused by copying the problem incorrectly.

 

Now my dd is working through Kinetic Books only. She is about halfway through chapter 10 (out of 13 or 14 total).

 

My dd is young for algebra, so I had planned for her to take 1.5-2 years to finish.

[Veronica in VA]

I'm wondering if she is having a problem with the way TT is set up. What I didn't like was that it introduced a new subject and the child did 5 or 6 practice problems and then reviewed the concepts taught in previous lessons. For some children this can work well, and eliminates the boredom of doing lots of similar problems over and over again. However, some children need the repetition to grasp and remember how to do the problems. For my son the TT approach may have worked, but for my daughter it just wouldn't. This is why Saxon was not a good approach for my dd also.

 

So you may want to find a text that has the child do many similar problems before heading on to review. Lial's, Chalkdust, and MUS come to mind, as well as some others.

 

Just a thought.

 

Veronica