Is Narration Possible with Poor Memory?

[imagine.more]

I'm wanting to get back to a more Classical TWTM-ish education with my younger kids this year and I really would like to bring DD13 along with that at least a little bit. 

 

Specifically I really feel like Narration is a critical skill to have in everyday life and in school. But, is it possible with a child who has poor comprehension and memory? I feel like if I could take her through incrementally maybe it could even help her comprehension and memory, but how to do that? 

 

Right now, if I read a short passage to DD, maybe one short 3-4 sentence paragraph, and then asked her questions she would look at me blankly. She would be unable to answer a single question and she would be unable to recall what I said. The basics she would get might be separate words or phrases, often inaccurate or mixed up, but no complete sentences because frankly she rarely speaks in complete sentences on her own anyway. Her sister and brother are the same way with no official learning disabilities so I think it's a neglectful environment/teen laziness combo (both lived with birth mom until 3 years ago). 

 

Anyway, has anyone here had success teaching narration to their children who are struggling learners? Any ideas for breaking it down into teeny tiny steps?

[Heathermomster]

You could try handing her a sheet of paper and pencil. As you read, have her take picture notes. Maybe start with a descriptive paragraph and speak slowly. Afterwards, allow her to use the notes to orally relate back what she heard. You could give a blank sequence mindmap where she drew in the first block and proceeded to the next block. That way when she reflected back, the parts would be in order.

 

Often times when DS was little, I would preview the questions so that he knew what to listen for. Previewing the questions is a good study habit anyways. She may benefit from taking picture notes of the questions.

 

Have you considered getting her into a Cogmed type therapy for working memory? Are you using sign language too since she is hearing impaired? I assume that you are. Are you using any LMB Visualizing and Verbalizing materials?

[Heathermomster]

I am back again. You could have her make a diorama of an event in a story. I think FairP has used a Lego kit designed for retelling stories with her boys.

 

You could also select one story element and focus on just that detail. I am pulling a blank right now, but I believe McGraw-Hill sells Corrective Reading materials that teach inferences and reading comprehension.

[imagine.more]

Heather, unfortunately she doesn't know sign language at all. She's got about 50% hearing loss in both ears and with her aids is at 80% and with lip reading at about 95%. When I do straight dictations from Barton she gets 95% or better on them. I just ensure I'm sitting across from her while I read and that I am speaking clearly and she can see my mouth to read my lips. We've only had her 1.5 years and where we lived previously there was no place to learn sign language. We're hoping to learn as a family later this year, but first we need to focus on having a healthy baby (I just failed like every blood test on my pregnancy screening so I've got a lot of work to do to sort out thyroid and GD and anemia) and DH finding a steady job here in our new city. DD has zero interest in learning sign language but I figure it couldn't hurt so we'll try as soon as things settle down. 

 

I like the picture idea, I might try that this week just to trial and see if she's able to do that at all because it would be a good starting point if she is. I am hopefully going to do LMB's Visualizing and Verbalizing with her, I actually just ordered it off ebay when I finally saw a really good deal. It should be here in 10 days then I'll look over it. My gut says it'll be good and useful for her based on her particular issues and the description. If it looks good I'll be trying to do that with her this summer so that come fall she's done with Visualizing and Verbalizing and will be better prepared for her work in her regular subjects. 

[PeterPan]

Would insurance or the ps cover getting her a speech eval?  There might be some language things they would find that would explain her issues.  I would NOT assume it's laziness or even merely EF (as in working memory, not metalinguistic) issues.  If it's just working memory, you could up that.  It may be something more subtle about how she's processing language. Can she repeat back sentences?  How long are the sentences she repeats back?  Are you expecting her to narrate or summarize?  If she hears the story multiple times (say once a day for 3-4 days) can she narrate more than if she just hears it once?  If she is to draw a picture depicting 4 elements from the story, can she get down more than if she tries to use words? You might sleuth like that and see under what conditions and with what supports she *can* get something like a narration.

 

Anyways, my ds had the CELF5 as part of his testing.  It goes into all sorts of deeper language processing stuff.  I'm just wondering what they'd find when they dig in on her.  The test has a bunch of subtests, including single sentence and paragraph comprehension. My ds' vocabulary is 99th percentile, but his single sentence comprehension is around 30th percentile.  Chew on that one.  So for a given sentence said, he might actually comprehend accurately (verb forms, how it comes together) a lot less than you think!  When he goes up to a paragraph for the source, he has more typical/appropriate comprehension (80th percentile), which is still below his IQ and vocabulary, still low.  When I teach him, he won't remember something unless he hears it OVER AND OVER. That's why I use audiobooks and videos with him, because they can do that!

 

So I've never gotten a narration out of him AT ALL.  Even if you just ask him about his day, you'll get blank looks.  And it's that language processing and how stinkin' hard it is.  It's going to be a long time before I can get all those pieces to gel together.

 

You might start really simple, with share time.  Seriously.  That's my next step with my ds.  They did it in the morning circle time at the ps, and I was realizing it would help him.  The kids come prepared to share something (anything), and they know their job is to listen to those who are sharing and ask 3-4 intelligent questions.  I'd be happy with 1-2, lol.  Sharing IS narrating, and it's something you can weave into your day, kwim?  You can have it as part of a bedtime ritual and assign it to a parent, or make it part of your dinner routine or a morning meeting or whatever you want.  Sharing, the new-fangled narration.   :D

[imagine.more]

So far all attempts with speech therapists have been a bust, none have even had experience with hoh kids, just autistic and little kids whose speech lags for whatever reason. It's been very frustrating. They keep giving her the Peabody Picture Vocab Test which I just found out isn't technically approved for use with deaf or hoh kids, oy! Once ins gets going here I'm hoping to find someone better but the process will take a few more weeks at least.

 

Her single word vocabulary is low and so is her sentence level comprehension. I have some test scores somewhere, might need to dig those up. I know from evaluations and just everyday experience that her working memory is low as well as passage comprehension. Her WM for letters and numbers is far higher now because of Barton, yay! But it still is low in other areas like even remembering faces. Her IQ is overall borderline low and her language scores are consistent with that.

[imagine.more]

I have to laugh at sharing being the newfangled narrating :) It's true! We do that during dinner, try to ask the kids specific questions about their day and she has gotten a bit better at it over the last year. It seems to help her process and remember events too. It just hasn't carried over into oral comprehension of stories or info.

[PeterPan]

I'm sorry it's so hard.  Is there an excellent deaf school or center of services for the deaf in your state or in a neighboring state?  That might be a better way to get evals, to find someone who has dramatically more experience with hoh to know what they're seeing.  Apraxia for my ds is a 1:1000 diagnosis.  I don't expect local SLPs to be intimately versed what it looks like and what happens with it, sigh.  

 

I'm not an SLP, but it sounds like maybe she's comprehending and expressing on the level where her language skills are.  It sounds like you're doing things RIGHT.  I wonder how her improving ability to read might, at some point in the future, make that an additional learning point for her.  

 

I've been reading about the idea that sometimes disabilities are self-fulfilling, that because they aren't able to do xyz they don't do it and therefore don't get the growth that would occur through doing it.  So that might be another angle for looking for options, like what opportunities for language growth or interaction has she been missing out on that maybe you can bring into her life in somewhat intentional way to give her those opportunities to grow?  I don't think you can bump the level of what she's doing, but you can increase the frequency with which she's getting the chance to do it to see if that helps the skill grow a bit...

[imagine.more]

Elizabeth, btw I totally sent a friend of mine over here because her son has Apraxia because I know it is so rare and know so little about it. I figured a couple of you guys could help her sort out a good plan for his early school years (he's 4 like my Peter) :)

 

I actually have contacting the deaf school on my agenda for this week, been sooo busy! We'll see if anyone is there since it is June of course. It's 1.5 hours from our current rental house but our hope is that if it looks like we'd like to send DD there for high school we'll buy a house within 1 hour of the school. I'm going to see what kind of services and resources they can connect us with here in the city. 

 

I'm also curious how her reading might change her language over time, and just the long-term effect of being in a language-rich environment. I think her language is below her IQ, by her IQ she should be functioning like a 9-10 year old right now but her language is at a 5-6 year old's level. So there is room for improvement but her current level is not uncommon for a HOH child so I agree we're not doing things wrong per se, I'm just always looking for better. It's that firstborn tendency in me, haha! 

[LaughingCat]

I was going to say back way up and have her narrate extremely easy things first (far easier than WWE).  But I think V&V will do that for you.

 

I have found for my DD (who has low working memory) -- that it is not all about getting it in (repetition) but also lot about getting it out.   She can watch a documentary and when I say "tell me one thing that happened" she will answer "I can't remember" -- in this case, she actually did get it in to her brain -- she just needs to find the right 'spark' to get it back out again.  And once she finds the right spark, she can narrate the whole thing well (well, some order issues -- but nothing extreme considering we're talking an hour long show).    For this type scenario, I haven't found anything that has helped  -- would love to hear if anyone else has.      Note: I can still see the working memory issues when she does this -- because she narrates what happens -- but she doesn't synthesize it well to pull out the meaning.

[PeterPan]

It's the TIGER MOM in you and I love it!!  It's what believes more of our kids than the professionals do, which is why we keep looking for answers.   :)

 

Have you considered the reading comprehension add-ons for Barton?  The graphic organizers they use might support any EF issues and help her organize a narration better.

 

[Jenn in CA]

Can she tell a story she knows, such as Red Riding Hood or another tale? Telling stories is a great precursor to narration.

 

What about reading picture books, several times until they're very familiar, then she tells the story and turns the pages?

 

Just some ideas. These helped my daughter to becoming better at narration. Also she can narrate fairy tales more easily because there are fewer names and places to keep track of.

[imagine.more]

Jenn, she's very unfamiliar with traditional fairy tales/fables. No stories or books growing up... We're starting to fill in that gap but it's not quite the automatic knowledge you expect from a typical american kid, even Disney movies are new to her. Growing up she saw Chuckie but never The Little Mermaid, so sad! Maybe I could have her narrate Frozen ;) 

 

[PeterPan]

Or back that up one step further and get sequencing cards.  I got a Lauri set at the education store.  I did them with him a bit, thought big woop, and then the SLP showed me that we could be taking them a lot further to work on more complex skills.  So it's not merely can she put the 3-5 steps in order, but can she tell the story for them, add details, use conjunctions, etc.  

 

Or do the reverse and take the Red Riding Hood and break it down into steps with a graphic organizer and use it to retell.  Oh, duh, that's what the Barton comprehension exercises from Supporting Dyslexia do.   :)

 

Jenn (the one whose boy has apraxia) used this story board game that I keep dreaming of buying, sigh.  Basic idea is two people with identical boards and figures (anything will do) and you give each other directions and then see at the end if your pictures match.  Crazy how much you could milk that for.  You could cut out pictures for your history story, science, whatever, work on sequences, prepositions, anything.  If you start with a background (cave and forest), then you could tell stories.  Made up, from literature, copying the cover of an intriguing book, anything would do.  With a 12 yo, maybe something super hip she's been listening to like that Owls of G'ahoole or something, kwim?  Like print an owlish looking habitat on 11X17 pages and pics of the different owls and then tell scenes.  Just put magnets on the back then those 16X20 magnetic whiteboards ($8 at Target, LOVE) would work.  

 

http://www.superduperinc.com/products/view.aspx?pid=GB180&s=magnetalk-barrier-game-stand#.VYBf4usSv88 This is what I'm saying you could do your own knock off version of using your child's own interests or things you're reading together.

 

[Lecka]

I am going to a seminar on Saturday and one of the topics is "using visual supports to teach language."  I will report back if I hear anything good :)  I am really excited about going!  

[imagine.more]

Or back that up one step further and get sequencing cards.  I got a Lauri set at the education store.  I did them with him a bit, thought big woop, and then the SLP showed me that we could be taking them a lot further to work on more complex skills.  So it's not merely can she put the 3-5 steps in order, but can she tell the story for them, add details, use conjunctions, etc.  

 

Or do the reverse and take the Red Riding Hood and break it down into steps with a graphic organizer and use it to retell.  Oh, duh, that's what the Barton comprehension exercises from Supporting Dyslexia do.   :)

 

Jenn (the one whose boy has apraxia) used this story board game that I keep dreaming of buying, sigh.  Basic idea is two people with identical boards and figures (anything will do) and you give each other directions and then see at the end if your pictures match.  Crazy how much you could milk that for.  You could cut out pictures for your history story, science, whatever, work on sequences, prepositions, anything.  If you start with a background (cave and forest), then you could tell stories.  Made up, from literature, copying the cover of an intriguing book, anything would do.  With a 12 yo, maybe something super hip she's been listening to like that Owls of G'ahoole or something, kwim?  Like print an owlish looking habitat on 11X17 pages and pics of the different owls and then tell scenes.  Just put magnets on the back then those 16X20 magnetic whiteboards ($8 at Target, LOVE) would work.  

 

http://www.superduperinc.com/products/view.aspx?pid=GB180&s=magnetalk-barrier-game-stand#.VYBf4usSv88 This is what I'm saying you could do your own knock off version of using your child's own interests or things you're reading together.

 

Ooh, I like the idea of sequencing cards. I used to have a set when I taught K-1st grade and it was fun to use them with the kids! 

 

Where do I find Barton comprehension exercises, I must have missed those somewhere? We just began Level 4 so can they be used already or should I wait until Level 5 when she can read more sensible stories? 

[imagine.more]

Ah, nevermind, I found the comprehension stuff online, duh! I remember seeing those before, must have pregnancy brain to have forgotten ;)

 

So I'm thinking maybe what I should do is this summer do Visualizing and Verbalizing just to make sure Ana is able to visualize things she hears/reads. Then this fall start with very simple narration of fairy tales/fables (I like the idea of fewer characters and simpler plot helping) and short passages from history/science (as in 2 sentences with the goal of condensing to 1 sentence). I'll also do some picture narrations to kind of extend V&V, where she looks at a picture and describes/tells a basic story from the picture. 

 

I think I'll wait and start the Barton comprehension questions around Level 5, just to give me time to really solidify the V&V skills and introduce narration. 

[Jenn in CA]

I like your plan. If her vocab is at a 5-6 yo level I'd think it would be best to start at a 5-6 yo ability's to comprehend and narrate, and material at that level, if she were not resistant.

I feel narration is best done w/stories. Non-fiction is very difficult to narrate. But you could find history stories, where there is an event of some sort, or science biographies.

 

another really helpful teaching tool is to model narration. Take turns narrating. When I read books without pictures, I might sketch stick figures and use arrows and lines to help them follow along, and be able to point to the pictures when narrating: ie.,  "That guy went there..." with pointing.

 

 

[PeterPan]

Well obviously you should do what you think is best.  I'll just say you might be underestimating how helpful the SD comprehension activities would be.  I got the 3/4 set of comprehension activities, and they're QUITE good.  I know they're pricey, ugh.  However they have graphic organizers for every single story.  They would help you help her step up her ability to break the story into parts, comprehend, and retell.  

 

Or you're already doing that on the fly yourself?  For me there's always that huge gap between the *idea* of what could get done and what does get done.  This is every single story with graphic organizers and a breakdown.  It's not tied to language level.  If she's going to bother to read the stories, she might as well be using these, as she'll get dramatically more from the process that way.  In fact, I'll be so bold to say they might turn out to be one of your best buys for the year.  Seriously.