Brave Writer...paging Farrar! (And any other users)

[sweetpea3829]

Ok, ok, ok...

 

Farrar, I have come across several of your posts, as well as your blog entries, regarding Brave Writer.  

 

Do you still love it?  

 

The website is still difficult to navigate and I'm not really sure how we would implement it.  Do you HAVE to purchase TWJ in order to implement Bravewriter, or could I just purchase those monthly...guide things?  

 

This is absolutely NOT a curriculum that holds your hand?  I need some structure for awhile...something laid out and fairly easy to implement.  

[Julie of KY]

I love Bravewriter and wish I had started it younger.

TWJ is the core philosophy of the program. TWJ does not hold your hand and step you through it however. I love TWJ, but could not implement it myself so I ended up taking Kidswriter Basic which is a family class that basically goes through TWJ.

 

The monthly guides are language arts guides telling you what to use for dictation and some grammar and lit to discuss based around a book for the month. You can purchase an old one for any book you want to do and try it out.

 

I love the philosophy, but I need more hand-holding. I have found the online classes to be expensive but wonderful for my family. They are very specifically laid out and easy to implement. I've done some family classes (Just so Stories, Groovy Grammar, Kidswriter Basic) as well as some individual classes - Kidswriter Int., Expository Essay.

 

Your kids are young. You might try Partnership Writing (downloadable pdf). It lays out a pretty specific plan. Jot it down is for the youngest kids as well.

[Farrar]

I still love it. I can't imagine approaching writing any other way, honestly. I borrow ideas from other programs and there are a few BW ideas that we tweak or don't quite follow, but overall BW really crystalized many things we had been doing all along and how I had taught writing when I taught at b&m school, helped me calm down about having to take kids all the way from letters to long research papers in their school career, and helped me see ways to turn what I was wanting to do into a concrete plan. That last one is maybe a little funny for many people because, yes, it's not a curriculum that holds your hand. But it got me to go from a vague sense of "I want it to be this way" to having a routine in place for writing instruction.

 

I see people on this board talk about BW as if it's really loosey goosey. And it *is* compared to something like WWE that's all laid out. But the thing that appeals to me so deeply about how BW approaches writing is that it combines the best aspects of classical writing - the narration, copywork, and dictation - and fits them into a framework with some of the best aspects of how writing is more typically taught and approached in education today - namely the positive "anyone can write" sort of approach and the emphasis on learning to love language and play around with writing.

 

Practically speaking... no, you don't have to buy TWJ to get started. I have such mixed feelings about this. Julie Bogart clearly wants it to be the entry point for people into BW and I get why. It lays the whole thing out. And I think it's worth reading for nearly every single homeschooler - even if you don't end up doing BW, I feel like it has something to say to everyone. But it's pricey. And it's overwhelming for a lot people. When I was newly on the BW bandwagon, I urged many people to get it and I saw that many people liked it but didn't get anything practical out of it. Now, a few years down the line, there are other BW products that cost less and have a better lead in for people.

 

So... my advice is exactly what Julie of KY suggested above. Get either Jot It Down or Partnership Writing. JiD is for younger kids who aren't writing independently much yet. PW is for kids who can write a few sentences maybe, but still need a lot of support. (Side note - Julie Bogart says she has the next installment, for kids who are writing more independently, Faltering Ownership, in final edits and it will be out in about a month - for real this time since it was previously delayed). These cost a lot less. They lay out more of a routine and have a brief, not overwhelming, description of what writing activities are suggested for that particular stage of writing and why. They have ten projects for kids to do and the directions are pretty laid out with a loose schedule.

 

Also subscribe to the BW blog. And if you're on FB, join the BW Lifestyle Group. It's a nice group! And then if you try all that and want to continue, then get TWJ. Really, since your kids are young and TWJ has a lot more ideas for kids about 9 or 10 and up than younger, then the timing on that would probably be about right anyway.

[mamaraby]

I see people on this board talk about BW as if it's really loosey goosey. And it *is* compared to something like WWE that's all laid out. But the thing that appeals to me so deeply about how BW approaches writing is that it combines the best aspects of classical writing - the narration, copywork, and dictation - and fits them into a framework with some of the best aspects of how writing is more typically taught and approached in education today - namely the positive "anyone can write" sort of approach and the emphasis on learning to love language and play around with writing.

See, but it *is* loosey goosey. For some people the "anyone can write" approach isn't encouraging, it's anxiety producing and overwhelming such that it can do exactly the opposite of what it's meant to. I think it's one of those things that you won't know until you try, though.

 

Practically speaking... no, you don't have to buy TWJ to get started. I have such mixed feelings about this. Julie Bogart clearly wants it to be the entry point for people into BW and I get why. It lays the whole thing out. And I think it's worth reading for nearly every single homeschooler - even if you don't end up doing BW, I feel like it has something to say to everyone. But it's pricey. And it's overwhelming for a lot people. When I was newly on the BW bandwagon, I urged many people to get it and I saw that many people liked it but didn't get anything practical out of it. Now, a few years down the line, there are other BW products that cost less and have a better lead in for people.

I probably don't strictly qualify seeing as BW was not a good fit for us at all, but I'd basically agree with this and the advice that followed. Until TWJ is available in a better (and more affordable) format it's not going to be a very good entry point. If it were available from a traditional publisher ala TWTM, then I can see how TWJ as a first step *might* possibly work. On the other hand, what makes TWTM work as a first step is that it's a lot clearer as to the "what next" type questions. TWJ, for me, is just not that.

 

So, yes, subscribe to and read the free stuff. Try one of the smaller (and infinitely clearer, imo) products to see if it's a good fit. Buy those on HSBC to save a little money. They're cheap enough that the inability to resell it if it's not a good fit wouldn't be such a huge hit. If you love it, if it works, and if you want to continue, then by all means buy TWJ, but get a hardcopy just in case. That way you keep as many of your options open and can resell and recoup at least some of what you spent.

 

I think BW is one of those love it or hate it things. I thought we'd love it and was very enthusiastic from the get go, couldn't wait to get started, BW was so going to solve our writing problems, etc. I went JB's ideal route and bought TWJ first (in a digital copy). I'd probably feel better about the BW brand if I had done the PW route first. Worst case scenario...you buy TWJ a few months down the road, but JID or PW will still give you enough to do in the meantime.

[sweetpea3829]

Our library system has a copy of TWJ and I'm trying to obtain it.  It's in the reference section of a library that isn't nearby, soooo....we'll see how that goes.

 

In the meantime...I'm eyeing BW kind of like ToG...great concept...works wonderfully for others...but I'm not sure it will work for us and DANG I don't want to make that expensive of a mistake again.  

 

Maybe I'll try the cheaper options and see what its all about.  

[Farrar]

See, but it *is* loosey goosey. For some people the "anyone can write" approach isn't encouraging, it's anxiety producing and overwhelming such that it can do exactly the opposite of what it's meant to. I think it's one of those things that you won't know until you try, though.

 

I see that as just the attitude though. In reality, she talks a lot about taking on one thing at a time and a lot of specific sorts of assignments and approaches. One of the things she talks about in TWJ is how getting a very open ended assignment like "Write about your summer vacation" is extremely anxiety producing and how to structure better assignments. So I don't think the approach itself is loosey-goosey at all.

 

I think the piece where it feels too open ended is not for kids, it's for parents. It's meant to be an extremely flexible approach, catered to the child and situation. So there's no, do this then do that and no at this age this is what is "normal" or expected or even the goal. Instead she has this set of stuff you do basically over and over and over, constantly circling around working on those writing skills and improving. And, of course, it changes, but it changes in the sense that you slowly turn from doing more copywork to more dictation. And you begin with copywork from picture books and end up with dictations from classic literature. And that you begin by "freewriting" things like misspelled lists and end up with short, smart reflections and thoughts. You start by doing projects that are cute fairy tale retellings with the parents doing most of the physical writing and end up with full blown research papers or serious short stories. But over years and years of doing it.

[CardinalAlt]

I think you could get a lot about the philosophy of the program from one back issue of the Arrow (or whatever level your student is on), and a sample like this from whatever writing project level you're on... http://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.bravewriter.com2/page_attachments/214/PartnershipWritingSAMPLE.pdf

 

If you like those things, it might be worth investing in TWJ when it's on sale with HSBC... And as has been said, the monthly products/guides offer a lot of handholding. I bought a bundle last year from HSBC, and now I feel like they're nice but not necessary. The one thing I wish for is a clear list of literary terms/devices to make sure I notice/cover in a BW style... I'm sure it's in TWJ somewhere, but I haven't been motivated to go digging yet...

[Veritaserum]

Reading The Writer's Jungle was good for me as a teacher. I prefer Jot It Down and Partnership Writing for actual assignments. The questions at the end of the upper level literature guides can also serve as essay prompts. I'm more of a Type A/structured sort of person, so Julie's more relaxed/fluid approach has helped me be more in tune with a particular child's actual skill level instead of pushing harder than is good for that child. I like the way she describes stages of writing ability. Now, I'm still a big proponent of explicit grammar instruction, but I do appreciate her ideas for writing and positive interactions with language. We've been doing tea time every week for over a year and it's something we all look forward to. I love most of her podcast episodes.

[mamaraby]

I see that as just the attitude though. In reality, she talks a lot about taking on one thing at a time and a lot of specific sorts of assignments and approaches. One of the things she talks about in TWJ is how getting a very open ended assignment like "Write about your summer vacation" is extremely anxiety producing and how to structure better assignments. So I don't think the approach itself is loosey-goosey at all.

Farrar - we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. You wouldn't believe the amount of anxiety (and tears) my ds experienced over just about everything we tried from BW including freewriting and the projects we attempted from PW. JID was far too simple from the samples that I could see (and there was no way I was buying a third thing from BW) and he wasn't all that thrilled with the Arrows I had picked up. Chalk it up to my failure as a teacher, if you like.

 

OP - BW was my expensive, non-resellable mistake so I understand. :0) There are lots of low cost options, though which should help. Good luck!

[Farrar]

Definitely not a failure as a teacher! No method is right for everyone - as a teacher or learner. :) I feel a great enthusiasm for this one (obviously) but I have tried to learn to warn people that it doesn't work for everyone.

[MerryAtHope]

 

This is absolutely NOT a curriculum that holds your hand?  I need some structure for awhile...something laid out and fairly easy to implement.  

 

 

TWJ will not hold your hand. It's more of a manual for parents to read and either use as they make up their own assignments, or integrate the methods as they implement curriculum. It's not daily curriculum for you to use with your child. I love the idea of TWJ because it quotes many of my favorite authors on writing (Elbow, Zinsser...) and makes good use of concepts like free-writing. This is how my favorite writing teachers taught me, and I was passionate about it and thought it would work great for my kids. However, what my kids needed was a direct, incremental approach with discernible assignments. 

 

Partnership Writing was not out yet when my kids were younger, and that might have worked here. I haven't seen it but have heard good things about it. 

 

I was disappointed by the Arrow assignments. The ones I viewed for free seemed like they would last a month. Most of the ones I purchased were more like 1-2 weeks worth of assignments and me scrambling to fill out the month with other things. As an occasional, fun, fill-in or change of pace or unit-study type of approach to a book, they might work. 

 

I enjoyed doing "Tuesday Tea" and some of the other "Bravewriter Lifestyle" ideas, especially when my kids were younger. Although, next year after my son graduates and it's just dd and I, maybe we'll go back to Tuesday Tea! She loved it, he hated it, LOL! Hm...food for thought. 

[HiddenJewel]

Can Jot It Down or Partnership Writing be used without also getting "The Arrow"?

And I am super stoked to hear that Faltering Ownership is almost done! That is the one I need.

[Hkpiano]

I just purchased and read through Jot It Down last week. It has 10 projects (that are intended to be completed at a pace of 1 per month). They look really fun, and I am excited to do them with my kids ages 5 and 7. It also has lots of great ideas on how to enrich your children's language via little things that affect the culture of the home.

However, it does not have the daily/weekly assignments like copywork or narration/dictation. That is what The Arrow is for. Or you could use WWE or simply pull your own copywork passages from your reading (which is what I'm doing because DS hates WWE).

[Farrar]

Can Jot It Down or Partnership Writing be used without also getting "The Arrow"?

 

And I am super stoked to hear that Faltering Ownership is almost done! That is the one I need.

Yes. PW schedules it, but we did all of PW and I don't use the Arrow. I don't think it's scheduled in JiD (maybe time to do The Wand is?). I feel like the Arrow is good if you're a box checker and need everything planned in advance. And I did find using a couple of a Arrows useful when we first were trying out BW. But now I just pick my own dictations from what we're reading. Easy peasy. As pointed out elsewhere, you can also use WWE for that or some other programs.

 

I'm also waiting for Faltering Ownership. She posted pics of the edits and said it was headed to the layout, IIRC.

[KSinNS]

So, I love BW, but it's certainly not the perfect writing curriculum for everyone. It's not really a writing curriculum, IMHO, but a way to approach language arts.   

 

As background, my oldest has autism and my second and third also appear to have some learning issues. Most writing materials are too easy technically for my oldest (who learned language mostly through reading and writing, not speaking) but require thinking processes that are very advanced for him. My younger two really struggle with the mechanics of writing but have advanced oral language skills. BW is ideal for us because I can work with them together much of the time, and customize what I need for them. The "rhythms" of copywork, poetry, read alouds, and free-writing have helped me with organization. I did not find JID helpful, but that, I suspect was more a product of my kids needs (and mine) than the book itself. TWJ was helpful for me in figuring out how to teach LA. Most of the assignments are more for 9-10 year olds and up, so we'll probably use them more next year. I like the Arrows because they give me confidence in discussing some area of writing. This is an area where I'm not as skilled as I would like. The writing assignments are sometimes helpful, but sometimes not so much. They also vary from big and complicated to really quick and easy. My oldest typically enjoys them. The Arrow is helpful, but I'm not always sure they are worth the price. They were a year or two ago, maybe not as much now as I'm getting more confident in my teaching (so I guess they did the job).

 

I'm doing R+S grammar with my oldest, which we both quite like. And he's doing the writing assignments because he is ready to think about form. However, I often approach them with Julie in mind.

 

BW was a godsend for us. Most writing programs really assumed that kids were reading and writing at levels far beyond what my kids could even consider doing. BW materials are very supportive, "work where your child is." What really appealed to me is that it's essentially the Suzuki method applied to writing, and that works for us. 

 

Downsides-TWJ is very expensive for a rambling, philosophical treatise, which is what it is. It really helped me, but it may not help everyone. Also, BW materials will not hold your hand, or tell you what to do next. If you are looking for assignments, broken into days an neat parts, all laid out in an orderly fashion, BW is really not the program you are looking for! Hope that helps.

[KSinNS]

worse, triple post! :-}

[KSinNS]

sorry, DP

[sweetpea3829]

Thanks for the excellent info and advice everyone.

 

I really wish I could see TWJ before committing.  If I could get it from our library, and read it over...or at least skim it...I could see whether or not it was worth the investment.

 

I don't need every detail planned out...but I do like a "syllabus" if you will...

 

In light of not being able to see it before hand...I think I'm probably going to end up using EIW for next year.  I just hate spending moolah on something that seems to be 50/50 on whether it would work for us.