What have you used for Italian? And a Rosetta Stone question..

[lovemykids]

I have a couple of middle school kids that want to take Italian... starting now and continuing through high school. What did you use? If you used Rosetta Stone or Tell Me More... how did you count the credits?

Can we do something like count the last two levels or so of either program, along with a program like The Berlitz Self Teacher, and call it Italian 1 and 2 for high school? How did you do it?

 

Any outsourced classes or other ideas would also be appreciated.

 

Thank you!

[mom2bee]

DISCLAIMER:

I have not studied Italian, but I have an obsession with language learning (Spanish, German, Arabic, French, Japanese, Esperanto, etc) and will recommend the Italian version of some of my favorite Spanish resources. Plus, I offer here some of my general language learning tips and suggestions. Feel free to ignore any and all parts at will.

 

With older students I always suggest learning to READ the language as quickly as possible, with a respectable accent and then practicing reading *aloud* for several minutes a day. Even if it is just a few simple childrens books, you'll want your students reading in Italian as often as possible. Learn to read and take time to work on basic pronunciation--its okay to have an accent, don't kill yourself trying to produce all the sounds perfectly--you probably wont be able to anyway without a native speaker/model to help you. But still--learn to READ Italian ASAP. Try to find some lessons meant for school kids on basic sounds/syllables in Italian on Youtube or something and take time to learn to read the language. It shouldn't take long for a 6th grader to get it down.

 

How to count what for which class is difficult to say. What is considered Italian 1 and Italian 2, etc...is subjective. I say look at a few syllabi for Italian courses in your area. In general my experience with www.ielanguages.com is pretty spot on for what is considered LANG 101 and LANG 102, etc.., so you can use that scope and sequence to guide you but don't feel locked in to what you find on that or any other website.

 

I would not START learning Italian from a textbook. Textbooks at the Middle School level are likely to be dumbed down/redundant/insufficient and even if it is well written, very few language textbooks teach in a way that satisfies a motivated students interest in speaking a language. There for I recommend a hybrid approach of using DVDs, CDs and workbooks to get your feet with a language and this gives you a good chance to learn what approach works for you.

 

As for what to use...

Books and Audio Courses for the very beginning.

Italian for Beginners by Angela Wilkes as a first exposure basic grammar guide. I have the SPN and FRN versions and couldn't be happier, I trust that the Italian version is just as good and probably available via the library OR Basic Italian by Practice Makes Perfect, which may NOT be available via library loan since its a consumable workbook, but still check.

Michel Thomas Audio lessons. Now, which version of the Italian course you get depends on how far you want to go with it. I highly recommend MT-courses for some first exposure to conversational language and I recommend you complete the course within 30-45 days of starting. Should be available via your local library or Inter-library loan.

Kids Stuff Italian -- Fun, useful resource to help you and your kids learn phrases that are genuinely useful to you in your day to day life. It includes the phrase in Italian, the English translation, and the Italian phonetic transliteration of each phrase to help with pronunciation, I don't know how big of a help or hinderance that will be to you, but its nice to have the option to refer to the transliteration if you are unsure.

 

**I suggest working daily in the beginning. (a min of 30 minutes a day, 7 days a week) and try to watch clips of cartoons/sports/documentaries in Italian via Youtube a few times a week--it helps tremendously to get used to the sound and rhythm of the language. Listen to Italian Music.

 

**Go to your library and browse their foreign films for some Italian language dvds (look them up first. I've found many European films to be a little more risque than some American audiences may feel comfortable with). Keep a flow of Italian for Beginners and Basic Italian type DVDs and CDs rotating through the house, have the kids watch them from time to time to help them cement the accent/basics.

 

Personally I've never been impressed by Rosetta Stone but I haven't found any language software that has just blown me away either. I suggest doing some research into comparisons some off brand programs and the more well advertised programs from RS, Fluenz and Tell Me More if you decide to go that route.

 

After you've finished Michel Thomas and a basic introductory book and have seen so many Italian for Beginner type dvds your kids can rattle off all the replies without thinking.

Check into Learning Italian Like Crazy, another Audio-based learning program. I like the Spanish version of the program and there are transcripts available for it. (unlike Pimsleur which is also good but not needed if you do Michel Thomas's course.) and get an Italian Reader of your choice--also look on Google Books because you can probably find some great ones for FREE.

If you find that the PMP workbooks work for you I suggest getting a copy of Italian Conversation, Complete Italian Grammar, and Sentence Builder by Practice Makes Perfect. The major drawback of these books is that there is no CD component, so you have to be sure to keep up the spoken/audio component. A lot of US-region DVDs can be played in English/Spanish/French and some of them may have Italian tracks or subtitles--just check.

 

These materials will probably get you through Middle School level Italian--giving you a good mix of workbook driven grammar, drill and conversational + listening skills. I have found that many colleges/universities have fantastic supplementary sites for Spanish, so try searching for university created Beginning Italian resources--many of them should be well within the reach of a middle school student because they start off so gradual and build up very logically and many of them will line up with a generic scope and sequence.

 

I did a super quick search for online resources and this one is free and looks promising: iLUSS.

 

I hope that you'll find at least something I've written helpful and I hope that you are able to find an approach that works and that your students will be satisfied with their progress no matter what method/approach they take.

Good luck. New languages are so much fun.

 

 

 

 

[Heather in VA]

mom2bee - this is so very helpful to me and looks so much more effective and doable than what we are currently suffering through. My daughter has been trying to do Italian this year with Prego and while there is nothing wrong with it, it's been a big crash and burn. It isn't easy to work through. I don't speak the language and it's dull and impractical. The one question I have for you. You said that all of this will 'Get you through middle school Italian'. That seems like a lot of vocabulary and basic grammar studies to not even be a starting high school course. Most kids don't know any of the language when they take their first language class in high school. Am I misunderstanding what you mean here?

 

Thanks

Heather

 

Edited to add a follow-up question... these Practice Makes Perfect books look really good. Do you have a favorite order to work through them or are they pretty much independent? Again I really appreciate your post. My daughter loves languages but I have failed her miserably trying to provide her with resources to study them. This layout sounds so much more like what she wants to do. 

[lovemykids]

Thank you for this great post (sorry I am just getting back here.. it's been a long weekend). Learn to read it first..okay! I agree with attacking language from many directions, and using different mediums. But some of what you mentioned I haven’t even heard of or thought about.. at all. We have done a little of this with Spanish over the years. My oldest in high school just wants to take German online for language, but I am sure some of these ideas will also help her in her studies.

 

That website ielanguages.com is invaluable. Making up our own to match a scope and sequence sounds much better anyway.

 

I agree with Heather, this will be much more than just middle school. Thanks again! I wonder if I can squeak out an Italian 3 as well. LOL.

[Heather in VA]

I agree with Heather, this will be much more than just middle school. Thanks again! I wonder if I can squeak out an Italian 3 as well. LOL.

 

I will have to see as we start going through the work, especially the Practice Makes Perfect books, but I don't think Italian 3 is out of the question. In our public schools, even those that are IB which are supposed to put an extra emphasis on languages, take 3 years to learn vocabulary and basic grammar. Sometimes they don't even study grammar at all. So I think a broad vocabulary and good grammar studies should be a very strong 2 years or even 3 depending on how much you do. The great thing about these recommendations is that there are so many options you can keep expanding the studies to make them last as long as you want. It's not like you can ever be "done" studying a language. 

 

And don't think that those who study high school languages in public school end up fluent after 3 or 4 years. All of my daughter's friends (my oldest is in college now and so are her friends) studied 4 years of a language in high school. Only one was fluent and that was because she spent a summer in Germany and went to Governor's School during another summer for almost a month where they only spoke German. The rest of the kids were lucky if they could put basic sentences together or ask where the bathroom is. 

[Diviya]

I was recently researching Italian programs, and decided to purchase Living Language Italian. It had great reviews and is not expensive. There is a book and CDs. We just started using it, so I can't give you any feedback on it, but it does seem very user friendly. I'd be curious to know if anyone else has used this. The company has other languages as well.

ETA: while I would normally look for a program with a strong reading component, in this case I was looking primarily for spoken.

[MBM]

I'm taking Italian now with a prof who teaches at both Northwestern U and U of Chicago. The class is immersion but we also use the textbook Parliamo Italiano! I think Harvard uses this with their first-year Italian students, too, but it would be suitable even for a high schooler. After a few chapters, everything is written in Italian, even instructions. Each chapter discusses a particular region (Italian state), as well as vocabulary, grammar, culture and history. Anyway, whatever you choose, don't neglect hearing the words because occasionally, pronunciation does not follow the typical model.

 

I also have all of the Practice Makes Perfect books, but I don't think they have thorough enough explanations to work as a stand alone course of study for someone who is self studying. They also don't tie the grammar together. I find they are good for drills and review, though. YMMV.

[flyingiguana]

Pimsleur goes way beyond the Michel Thomas courses.

Our approach has been to learn some of the language with Pimsleur, and then get into the reading. We tried going the other way around and it just didn't work. Reading first was a disaster.

Eventually, you'd want to do all 3 levels with Pimsleur. It's really expensive, so you're better off finding it at a library.

I wouldn't bother with Michel Thomas as the one level hardly does anything. When we were part way through level 1 of Pimsleur, we tried Michel Thomas as review, but it wasn't very useful. (I haven't been able to find further levels of it -- if there were some, it might be worth doing)

[SkateLeft]

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[mom2bee]

Sorry for the delay in following up.

mom2bee - this is so very helpful to me and looks so much more effective and doable than what we are currently suffering through. I'm glad to hear that. My daughter has been trying to do Italian this year with Prego and while there is nothing wrong with it, it's been a big crash and burn. It isn't easy to work through. I don't speak the language and it's dull and impractical.

I actually had a chance to look at Prego a couple of years ago and it seemed pretty 'meh' to me, but then again its a textbook. I think that Prego is a pretty 'standard' Italian textbook. If I were you, I wouldn't feel the need to get a different one, per se, but I would feel the need to approach it a different way.

The one question I have for you. You said that all of this will 'Get you through middle school Italian'. That seems like a lot of vocabulary and basic grammar studies to not even be a starting high school course. Most kids don't know any of the language when they take their first language class in high school. Am I misunderstanding what you mean here?

Well, as for the 'middle school' Italian comment, keep in mind that there is no such thing as X grade Italian--there are Italian 4yr olds in Italy who speak better than Italian Majors. Doubtless there are adolescent Italian heritage speakers who would put an Italian Graduate student to shame with their linguistic abilities--because the ability to sing, joke, comprehend spoken language, effortlessly use the physical gestures that accompany spoken language, understand songs, make up jokes/songs in a language are not things that even many graduate students can do. I know tons of bilingual kids who do all of the above by the time that they are 10.

 

Even 'beginner', 'intermediate' and 'advanced' are all arbitrary labels (for arbitrarily set goals) that outsiders have conjured up and no one can really say what each one means. Let your student focus on growth of their abilities and really have fun. If your student is motivated to speak and use the language, then make that your focus, not how many boxes you can check at the end of a chapter, though that is important too.

 

So why did I saw 'middle school' level? Because the resources/approach that I recommended doesn't include any specific Official Italian Textbook, I assumed that you had one already. Let me ask you, how many chapters are in the book? My guess is like 15, 18 or 21 chapters right? Take those chapters, divide them by 3 and that will give you the basic outline of Italian 1, Italian 2 and Italian 3. So if there are 18 chapters, 0-6 cover the grammar that is generally Italian 1, chapters 7-12 cover what is generally Italian 2 and chapters 13-18 will give you the grammar that is generally Italian 3. Check and see how those grammar topics match up to the ielanguages website.

 

 

Thanks

Heather

 

Edited to add a follow-up question... these Practice Makes Perfect books look really good. Do you have a favorite order to work through them or are they pretty much independent? Again I really appreciate your post. My daughter loves languages but I have failed her miserably trying to provide her with resources to study them. This layout sounds so much more like what she wants to do.

No, I would start with Basic Italian (or the Italian for Beginners by Wilkes) and work my way through it while watching any Italian for Beginner type DVDS that my library had to offer. After that either Sentence Builder or Conversation while going through MT (or Pims) audio lessons. Its no hard and fast ruling. Do what ever feels most comfortable. I would continue to use Prego as a grammar reference and objective look--after you've finished Basic Italian by PMP, try some of the grammar exercises from Chapter 2 or 3 of Prego--what did you miss? Why? Are you weak on verbs, did you forget to do the gender thing for the adjectives? That sort of thing.

 

 

 

Thank you for this great post (sorry I am just getting back here.. it's been a long weekend). Learn to read it first..okay!

Yes, reading it well will help. I'm sure you can find lessons online for little kids/beginners that will be to the point. Get a reader and read ALOUD, with your best accent, each and every day for 45 days straight. (Italian readers are good for this!)

I agree with attacking language from many directions, and using different mediums. But some of what you mentioned I haven’t even heard of or thought about.. at all. We have done a little of this with Spanish over the years. My oldest in high school just wants to take German online for language, but I am sure some of these ideas will also help her in her studies.

 

That website ielanguages.com is invaluable. Making up our own to match a scope and sequence sounds much better anyway.

 

I agree with Heather, this will be much more than just middle school. Thanks again! I wonder if I can squeak out an Italian 3 as well. LOL.

I'm sure that you can get Italian 3. Get almost any Undergraduate/College Italian textbook and divide the chapters by 3--that will give you a rough idea of what grammar is generally expected in Italian I, II and III regardless of whether it is in HS or College, but. I am not as familiar with highschool textbooks but from what I have seen they tend to be more long/drawn out and are meant to be used as Book A for 9th, Book B for 10th, Book C for 11th, Book D for 12th.

 

I was recently researching Italian programs, and decided to purchase Living Language Italian. It had great reviews and is not expensive. There is a book and CDs. We just started using it, so I can't give you any feedback on it, but it does seem very user friendly. I'd be curious to know if anyone else has used this. The company has other languages as well.

ETA: while I would normally look for a program with a strong reading component, in this case I was looking primarily for spoken.

Wow, I actually came back to add Living Language Italian to the list, but I wasn't sure. I liked LLSpanish, but I never used it for more than a few chapters because I had so many other things. Thanks for this endorsement.

 

 

Pimsleur goes way beyond the Michel Thomas courses.
I've only used the Spanish version for each. I've completed 100 Pimsleur Lessons for Spanish (Comprehensive 1-3 + the other level 4 that only had 10 lessons) and it was an experience. I will admit that Pims is good at what it does, but it doesn't do much and it takes a looooooooooooong time to do it. Or at least it felt that way. I, personally feel, that MT does roughly the same thing as Pim, but in a mildly less brain-draining, soul-crushing way. (Okay, that was a little dramatic but by the end of Pim, I was bored silly, but I persevered because it was working and working well...)

To a serious student: I recommend them both, if you have the time/energy for them.

 

MT does more to offer explicit grammar support. Pim is gentle and slow paced--NOT a bad thing, so if you are serious about language learning and have the time I say that they are both worth a genuine try. Stick with each for at-least 30 days before you decide to nix it.
Our approach has been to learn some of the language with Pimsleur, and then get into the reading. We tried going the other way around and it just didn't work. Reading first was a disaster.
Yeah, it varies with person-to-language. I can stand to read in Spanish daily, but I can't stand to read in Arabic because I haven't disciplined myself to read it daily.
Eventually, you'd want to do all 3 levels with Pimsleur. It's really expensive, so you're better off finding it at a library.
I recommend getting any and all audio courses through the library because those things cost $$$ and its better to try before you invest any $$$ in them. I say get MT, Pim and any other Audio based Italian program your library (and interlibrary loan) has to offer and see which ones you like.
I wouldn't bother with Michel Thomas as the one level hardly does anything. When we were part way through level 1 of Pimsleur, we tried Michel Thomas as review, but it wasn't very useful. (I haven't been able to find further levels of it -- if there were some, it might be worth doing) There are several levels of MT Italian.

 

Of course, if you can find an Italian speaker to interact with, then thats just bonus.

At this stage its more important to feel like you are growing linguistically and experience satisfaction than to religiously do any one thing or complete any program. Your kid loves language and is passionate about Italian--fuel that love and feed that passion. Let her feel giddy when she finishes an Italian lesson with MT or Pim. Let her watch clips on youtube and pick out what she can understand. Check around and find some videos for Italian students (like Extr@ or Destinos)

Get those First 1000 Words in LANGUAGE books and label crap all over the house. Find an Italian channel on YouTube or Italian podcast and follow it--listen to the language, work on grammar skills.

 

I guess what I am suggesting is during these middle school years--try to get as much done as you can to expand her vocabulary and expose her to grammar and conversations and get her speaking and reading in Italian. PRIORITIZE learning to listen and speak over everything else. The point of learning to read is to remove the roadblock that illiteracy presents.

 

I'm guess that you don't have an Italian person in your house so many days the only Italian person your student will have will be the author of the book she's reading. Let her read the same story/passage aloud everyday for a week if need be, work on expression and fluency. Not because reading is the coveted skill, but because reading is a vehicle to more Italian.

 

 

[lovemykids]

Mom2bee, this has been more than I hoped for as far as details, things to use, sequence, etc. Thank you so much! This is for my oldest son, who will be in sixth grade next year, and my youngest daughter, who will be in eighth grade next year.

 

We are part Italian, and have relatives that are as well, but we don’t have any Italian speakers to hang out with. Al though we do have many people that speak Italian in here in our state, I am sure. So perhaps we can look for those opportunities.

 

Thanks also to everyone who replied and for sharing your experiences. I know that many times what works for one kid will not work for another. We are going to try some of this and see what works for us.

[Kareni]

I've no firsthand experience with it, but I'll mention that Margarita Madrigal who is best known for her Magic Key to Spanish book also co-wrote a shorter book that might be of interest.

 

See It and Say It in Italian by Margarita Madrigal and Giuseppina Salvadori

 

Regards,

Kareni