RightStart or Shiller??

[Amy+2]

We are burnt out on workbooks, and since we are just finishing up Abeka Arithmetic 1 and 2, I thought we would try something that will pick up our spirits and attitudes about math. So, any opinions as far as which program you would or would not choose? I am so open to positive/negative opinions and even other math options!! Thanks all!

[Claire]

RightStart, definitely. Lots of games, the abacus is a great visualization help, and daily lesson plans are already made up for you. I've read lots of positive comments about RightStart, but none about Shiller. Plus, I think that Shiller is much more expensive.

[Lenora in MD]

Well, I do have something positive to say about Shiller. I have been using it the last year and a half and I really like it. No teacher prep, just pick up the book and go. I set a timer for a certain period of time, and we stop wherever we are when it goes off. In my opinion, it has made math painless and fun for both mom and kids. And my kids are definitely learning their math. No games, per se, but lots of manipulatives.

[Heather in VA]

I much prefer Shiller to RightStart. I should say that I have a Montessori background - not as a teacher but as a parent with 2 kids who went to Montessori prior to homeschooling - so I get what it's doing and where it's going. I also am a math person. That said, RS always bugged me to no end. My kids hated it and I was so annoyed by it. It's a good program as far as what it teaches but I couldn't use it without pulling my hair out.

 

I really like Shiller.

 

Heather

[Vanna]

:D Been using Shiller Math for a couple of years now. Currently dd7 just started Kit 2, ds5 is in book3 of Kit 1.

 

I heartily agree with the other posters comments on the program. It's totally different from what most folks are accustomed to when it comes to Math.

 

No program is *perfect* so we do supplement with workbooks.

 

Probably the best thing I like about Shiller is that you can do as much or as little as your child wants to do. Sometimes we just play with the sponge ball and practice skip counting as we roll it to each other (who said Shiller didn't have any games?;)) Hee, hee!

 

If you're interested, I gave a detailed review of Kit 1 and my first impressions of Kit 2 on my blog.

 

Best Wishes!

[Amy+2]

Have either of you(who responded thus far) used Shiller Level II? I see so many reviews of Shiller but have yet to find one that speaks of Level II, which is where my oldest would start, according to the level testing. Just wondering...I also think I am starting to sway towards Shiller now. I am really not into the Math Card Games that I am seeing on the RightStart site. And, I think I like the manipulatives better in the Shiller program. I am afraid with RightStart, I would have to go back and 'reteach' quite a bit due to the abacus. We have and use an abacus, but not as intensely as that program uses it. Which I am sure would be wonderful if you are at a Kindergarten level. I just feel the transition to that at Third/Fourth grade might be too much. My boys both "get" math. I just want a more mental program than the plain old A Beka workbook we are so used to doing everyday.

[Amy+2]

Thanks so much Vanna! I am going to visit your blog right now! :D

 

Can't wait to read your thoughts on Kit II!!

[PeterPan]

Hi AJ, since you took the time to congratulate me, I wanted to spend some time thinking about your situation... I really like RS and it can definitely help revitalize the math doldrums. That said, there's a time when it's good to transfer in, and a time when it's not. You're looking at 2nd and 3rd grade math, which is a bit later in the ballgame, considering RS has standard levels to 4th and then the middle school series they're (slowly) developing. I think you might like to consider bringing in some aspects of RS but not doing the whole thing. If you were having serious PROBLEMS, as in not understanding place value or really needing a new way to see things, then I'd definitely consider it worth the transition, even for just a year or two, because RS can turn those situations around. But in your situation, I might recommend some time doing the RS Card Games kit and some other more interesting forms of math. You could get Primary Challenge Math and use it with both of them. You could get the Stretch Your Mind books for 1st and 2nd from BJU and do a page or two of those daily. I'd also continue daily drill, even just a little bit.

 

A real change of pace for a few months could totally spice up how you view math. Then in the meantime I'd spend some serious time thinking about where you want to go with math. Maybe you'd like to change to a mastery-based program, something with a slower, more typical pacing? BJU would do that and be colorful, pleasant. It's what we've gone into after RightStart, and I'm very happy with it. There might be a number of programs you'd like. With BJU, I like the variety I can get with one program and one set of lesson #'s for the day. BJU makes 4 optional workbooks (Reviews, Spread Your Wings, Spring Into Action, and Stretch Your Mind). Each is a little different and allows you to provide just the level of practice your dc needs without it being too much. Reviews has fact drill and spiral review. Stretch is challenging application problems that force them to think outside the box. It's all coordinated to the topic of the day and has a matching lesson number, making it a snap to implement.

 

I'd definitely take that break though and do some other things for a while, till your joy comes back. Kathleen, Dr. Cotter's dd, is going to be at the Cincy convention repping for RS. Are you going? I haven't yet met her in person, so I'm looking forward to it. That would be a great time to see the materials. I'd highly recommend the card games kit and some manipulatives to you. Primary Challenge Math by Zaccaro would be fun to do with your dc together. Play games, get over the burnout, then decide what math you want long-term, that's my two cents.

[PeterPan]

You mentioned your boys "get" math. Then definitely I'd look toward something more stimulating like BJU. They're not going to NEED all the help that a program like Shiller provides. Granted I haven't seen it hands-on, but I just don't think they would. With my dd in RS, she was constantly intuiting and making the jump before we actually taught it. She didn't NEED the manipulatives to visualize it. I still think the way Dr. Cotter explains certain topics is awesome, but you could get either with Singapore (another to consider for your ds's) or by using the Activities for the ALAbacus book to supplement a regular textbook course (say BJU). And I'll repeat, at the risk of boring you, that I've really come to like BJU for it's thoroughness and breadth of thought required. I can take an advanced student and get both spiral drill (just enough, not too much), fact drill, a basic lesson or three, AND challenging problems, all in ONE curriculum. To me that was highly motivating. I know some people will do calculadders *and* horizons *and* Singapore to make sure they accomplish it all, but not me. I wanted a one-stop shop.

 

In any case, I wouldn't spend tons on a ton of manipulatives, as your boys may not need them or enjoy them. I'd get one or two things, dabble with it, see what happens. All the RS manipulatives come with instruction booklets showing ways you can use them without needing the entire curriculum. I'd give them a break and pursue other things while you take your time to consider what curriculum will really fit each of their styles long-term. You might also look at Cathy Duffy's comments on learning styles and how to translate them into curricula.

[Heather in VA]

Have either of you(who responded thus far) used Shiller Level II? .

 

I'm using both Level I (with my 4 1/2 year old) and Level II with my 8 year old. With Level II I'm using Singapore as well just to make sure she gets physical computation on a regular basis. We just use the Singapore workbook so the lessons are short and if we spend alot of time on Shiller we don't do a Singapore lesson too. I wondered about the need for the manipulatives with an older child (mine "gets" math too) and I'm been surprised how much we appreciate them. The fractions book is really terrific - no matter how much you get math it's really great to have fraction manipulatives and an orderly progression to understand how it all relates.

[Amy+2]

Thanks so much OhElizabeth for your comments! I am going to the Cinci conference and did not realize Dr. Cotter would actually be there. That's great! I'll be sure to catch one of her sessions. :)

As far as math goes, I have to say that I love what and how much they have learned with A Beka thus far. We started in K with a mix of MUS Alpha and A Beka and in First grade dropped the MUS completely and stuck with the A Beka. I have no problem with the A Beka program. It's my boys who are going through the -Do we have to do a Math page (or two) today? They are just tired of the monotony of it. I know they both would do well with a Kinesthetic program, that's why I was thinking Shiller or RS. Both are just tired of workbooks. Therefore, I am interested in BJU, but would it entail daily workbook pages? Or is it enough of a mix that it would vary greatly from A Beka?? If so, it would interest me.

For the last couple of weeks we have done all manipulative based things for math. Such as Montessori Hundreds Board- I have them cover the multiples for different #'s- we also do tangrams, weights and measures with our scale, cooking, School House Rock dvd, etc. They are LOVING it. SO hands on and no workbook pages. We also do oral review of facts. It has made our day so much nicer! But, I want to ADVANCE them at the same time. Thus being the reason I am researching such different programs from where we have been. I will check out BJU on their site and see if I think it will foot the bill for them. Thanks so much for your input!! :)

[Amy+2]

Thanks Heather for the input on Kit II!:) I never thought of supplementing with Singapore. I considered supplementing with the A Beka since we already have Arithmetic 3, but wondered if that would be overkill. From what I remember, Singapore has less problems per page and their Textbooks are colorful and very nice.

I like the idea too of the fractions taught with the manipulatives. I have a couple of fraction sets, but with the A Beka, they just didn't seem to flow well. Probably my fault. I just think it is so important for a child to be able to do math mentally/visually, rather than JUST rote memory. Which is another small reason as to why I am investigating...

[Novafan]

I just posted a few days ago that we were struggling to get into Schiller Math at our house and that I was looking for something to challenge my 7 year old.

 

Well, it's been a few days and we've continued working with Schiller with a positive attitude and now we are really enjoying it. I bought Kit I for my 5 year old (who will soon be in book 2) and my 7 year old (who is in book 3, but will soon be ready for Kit II).

 

I have decided to supplement my DS7 with Singapore. However, Schiller is now working out very well for us. I will always feel that hands on math is the way to go, and Schiller provides that for us.

[PeterPan]

AJ, I agree with Novafan that you're probably going to need a balance of hands-on and workbooks. SM would be GREAT in your situation, because it's less work on each page, less pages total. That would leave you more time for interactive, hands-on math. Unless your dc are auditory learners, they're going to need to do a significant amount of written work to make the math facts cement. You could do the free learning styles assessment at http://www.educate.com to see. My dd is very dominantly visual, so she HAS to write them to get them to stick. You're also coming on that level where you're doing 4 digit addition, 4 digit subtraction, etc., things that really have to be done written.

 

BJU has less written work than say abeka or horizions, largely because they break it up into several different optional workbooks, allowing you to get the amount just right. With abeka, might you be able to continue if you just chopped a lot of the problems?

 

Any combination you chose is going to be fine. Just pick something reasonable and be consistent with it. I probably wouldn't go as far as winging it yourself (exclusively) and doing only homemade worksheets, but anything beyond that will be fine. The key is to pick SOMETHING and stick with it, not jumping around. If you use SM as a spine and flesh it out with lots of hands-on Shiller and Rs manips, that will be good. RS sells their original format (Activities for the ALAbacus) that is perfect for supplementing. Definitely also look at their regular levels, as it sounds like they could be just what you're looking for. With less written and more focus on concept, they might be a great change for you. But whatever you do, keep a spine consistent for a few years and don't jump around. That's my two cents.

[Amy+2]

OHElizabeth, I completely agree with you on keeping a spine and sticking with it! Makes so much sense to me to have a curriculum that is a constant, like the A beka has been. I may swing over to Singapore though after looking through the samples, and therefore make it my constant. Not nearly as overwhelming to look at versus the Abeka pages. My only concern with that is the Mastery versus the Spiral. Any thoughts on why one is/isn't better than the other?? I did not like MUS but not necessarily because it was mastery. More because I did not think it covered nearly enough of all the bases of Arithmetic/Mathematics. Singapore seems to cover much more from what I can tell. Would you agree? Then again, I can always cut out a lot of the A Beka problems and try to simplify.

[siloam]

I much prefer Shiller to RightStart. I should say that I have a Montessori background - not as a teacher but as a parent with 2 kids who went to Montessori prior to homeschooling - so I get what it's doing and where it's going. I also am a math person. That said, RS always bugged me to no end. My kids hated it and I was so annoyed by it. It's a good program as far as what it teaches but I couldn't use it without pulling my hair out.

 

I really like Shiller.

 

Heather

 

Really? I didn't realize you had switched. Well know you have every curious and analytical space in my mind buzzing. I might have to e-mail you later. :D

 

 

AJ I am using Right Start as a supplement to Singapore. Actually I am using it solely for K-1st then picking up Singapore and doing a combo, brushing over RS to make sure the kids have the points covered and playing the games. There are several things RS covers better, in my opinion, like time, money and of course geometry.

 

To be honest I struggle with all the manipulatives, so I do have days where I treat myself to NOT doing RS, but my kids love the games. It really helped the learning of their math facts. They liked Flashmaster, but they never really progressed with it. At least not like they did with the RS games.

 

The only reason why I think I didn't choose Shiller was because I was really into the whole Abacus idea. Of course not that I know how to use one it can be used with any program.

 

Heather

[PeterPan]

AJ, what you're noticing is that some curricula cover all the state standards (arithmetic, time, geometry, etc.) and some focus on one topic at a time. Personally, I would feel more comfortable with a curriculum that covers ALL the topics, but that's just me. SM is in the middle there. RS, Abeka, BJU, etc. all cover the state standards. MUS sticks to a topic per book.

 

As far as mastery vs. spiral, don't you think the best approach is a bit of each? Even BJU, a mastery program, sells a spiral Reviews workbook, which I happen to have my dd doing. Seems to me that most of the really overtly spiral programs emphasize doing more than understanding. That's not to say kids won't come out understanding, because some naturally will. Others never will. Mastery programs typically focus on the concepts, introducing them one year, covering them more deeply the next, then reviewing after that. I've done each, and I don't think it's a matter of religious conviction. Just do what seems best to you or what seems to work well for your dc. I think bright dc could get bored by too much spiral and not enough focus on concepts. Even bright children need some extra practice though, so that a bit of spiral can be good with a mastery. So just find what works for you. If you go to the convention and look through things, I bet something will jump out at you as being the RIGHT thing for your dc. They're all just a bit different, all these curricula, and something is going to resonate with you. It might not even be the one you're expecting.

[Heather in VA]

AJ, what you're noticing is that some curricula cover all the state standards (arithmetic, time, geometry, etc.) and some focus on one topic at a time. Personally, I would feel more comfortable with a curriculum that covers ALL the topics, but that's just me. .

 

This is why I find a combination of programs nice. For us it's been Shiller and Singapore (only Shiller for my youngest). Shiller gives us the visual and concentration on concepts and understanding. Singapore gives us additional computation, another viewpoint and review. Since I make no attempt to co-ordinate Shiller topics with Singapore they naturally review each other.

[PeterPan]

Yup (agreeing with Heather), I realized that if I was going to pick some of the more non-standard curricula, I was going to have to mix, something I wasn't willing to do. I wanted ALL the aspects (drill, spiral review, mastery instruction, and challenging problems), all in one place with one set of lesson numbers. That's just what *I* wanted to make my life easy. I'm not the type to get multiple math programs done. Either way works, but you do want to make that decision of whether you're comfortable piecing together or whether you want it all in one place.

[Terabith]

Oh wow. Okay, now you ladies have thrown me into ambivalence again. I've been trying to figure out which to buy for my 4 year old (with the almost 3 yr old coming up behind). I had pretty much decided on RightStart, but now Shiller sounds so appealing too. What do I do??? Does one work better with a certain personality or learning style than the other?

[Heather in VA]

Oh wow. Okay, now you ladies have thrown me into ambivalence again. I've been trying to figure out which to buy for my 4 year old (with the almost 3 yr old coming up behind). I had pretty much decided on RightStart, but now Shiller sounds so appealing too. What do I do??? Does one work better with a certain personality or learning style than the other?

 

 

Well I can tell you about my 4 year old. She has NO attention span. She makes wiggly worms look like slugs. She is in constant motion. She LOVES Shiller. There is so much variety in the lessons that she is constantly engaged. It works too. She has gone from a child who could recognize 1 - 9 and BARELY count to 15 to one that just based on the place value lessons can read numbers up to 999. She's starting to add even though she doesn't know it. She is recognizing sequencing and patterns which was just a foreign concept to her before Shiller. I was afraid she'd never get it. She requires TONS of repetition and I find it very easy to use almost any lesson as a "template" to do over and over until she gets it. Since most lessons that she needs to keep doing use manipulatives (like understanding unit, 10, 100, 1000) she never feels like she's doing the same thing over and over. To her she's playing with her school stuff.

 

We are moving slowly with her because of her attention span issues but it's going very well both academically and 'follow directions/pay attention' wise.

 

Heather

[Terabith]

So.... out of curiousity, if one has pretty much all of the manipulatives already, could one purchase just the instructional books? And save a hundred and fifty dollars or so? My main real objection to Shiller has been cost; especially since I don't know how we will like it, I don't want to fork over the money. But when looking at the manipulative list, we really already have everything except the number cards, and I'm pretty sure I could make those out of posterboard pretty easily.

[maryibug]

I would also throw in a recommendation for Math U See , just to confuse things! hehe! You wouldn't need to do much with the manipulatives at this stage, but it would be a breath of fresh air because of the mastery approach, they can watch the DVD, work through enough to get the idea and move on. Just a thought! I hope you find something that is right for you! Mary