If you were a part of the Bill Gothard Cult and came out or know someone who has...

[Hope44]

please post here your level of involvement and experiences.  Without going into detail, our family has been tragically affected by another family in the area who "say" they no longer follow everything Gothard.  However, we feel that this family (eerily similar to the Duggars - yet trying to pass themselves off as more "lenient") are really heavily involved still.  We feel the father is definitely a cult-like leader.  We know in their past they were higher ups withing the Gothard offices.  

 

Thanks in advance...

[Alessandra]

FaithManor had some long insightful posts, one was a thread titled Gothard and ATI, or something like that. I didn't find the other, but it might have been on the Doug Phillips thread.

 

So sorry you are experiencing this. I know nothing about this first hand, but I read a book called, I Fired God, about cults. It was scarier than I had imagined.

[FaithManor]

This is a very, very heady subject to discuss. It has been discussed here in the past so you may want to do a search for "ATI", "Gothard", or "Duggars". Past threads were very informative.

 

I am sure you are asking out of genuine concern. However, we have had some members of both Doug Phillips group and ATI that have joined the forums only for the express purpose of defending the leadership, putting down those that speak against these movements or question the leaders' motivations, and to be divisive and insulting. So, when we see a really low post count from a new member, usually what we recommend first is that you go back and search those old threads and read. This way you'll be informed of what has been said on the subject now, you can see how the "trolls" or those that came on just to be divisive work on serious, emotionally heightened topics, and will be better suited to take part in another discussion if the other threads do not give you all of the information you need. It's pretty important because these kinds of threads can "light up" quickly. There are a LOT of viewpoints expressed here, so one does need to account for the worldview diversity.

 

Since the last thread on Vision Forum had some pretty serious trolls come on and raise a ruckus, you will want to probably also search for "Doug Phillips" and "Vision Forum" as well since the leadership and organization is similar, the philosophies eerily similar. You'll gain insight from that, and you'll also learn how to phrase your questions in a manner that hopefully does not illicit an over-the-top response.

 

Beyond that, I will say that counseling such a family is best left to a professional therapist, or a clergy with some very serious experience in the matter. My dad has helped a few families leave, and it was not pretty. The emotional toll is huge because of the level of dysfunction. It is very difficult to be in that role. I do not recommend that most couples engage in that. It would be best to distance yourself, but offer them the names of professional counselors in your area (if they are open to the idea) and especially ones that have experience with abuse, particularly spiritual and emotional abuse. Plus, there could be issues you aren't totally aware of that could be very serious. I've personally seen a situation in which the wife wanted to leave, demanded it, worked hard to make it happen, and the husband did not. He "left" begrudgingly which means not much changed in the family dynamic. I've seen it the reverse as well, as sometimes men find it really demanding to be an "ATI husband/father". Either way, it is a very tricky situation.

 

Best Wishes,

Faith

[Hope44]

Let's just say I'm about as mainstream as you can get.  I can understand the skepticism then about my limited posts.  I am mostly a lurker here.  I don't mind sharing what is going on in a pm, but I too am very concerned about their "underground" network of spies and followers.  Let's just say that they've involved us with one of their family members affecting one of ours (for the rest of our lives) and we can't walk away.  Now our family member has cut off contact.  The father of this Gothard cult "counseled" our family member over the past few months.  That is as much public information as I want to share.  I've learned that Gothardite men lie, perpetuate immorality, invent their own morality, don't follow even the rules that Gothard has laid out (but then again, he himself doesn't follow them either), and the women defend all of this to the hilt and are spiritually arrogant and mean.  This is what I've learned.  

[Hope44]

And thank you for the links.  I will check them out.

[FaithManor]

Hope, I'm so sorry. I can imagine what happened. For someone who has some first hand experience with ATI families in our area, it is a familiar tale.

 

You may want to PM one of our long time members, Joanne. She is a professional therapist with a background in abuse counseling, and has some amazing insights into cultish behavior and dynamics/spiritual abuse. She's a busy gal, and it may be a while before she responds. But, she may be able to point you towards some resources that will be helpful.

 

I have a lot of knowledge, but no counseling experience.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Hope44]

Thank you.  I will pm her.  We need professional help at this point.  Several other pastors have tried (NOT Gothard men!  Real, educated pastors with a real God-given calling with REAL accountability from a REAL denomination).  But from what we've experienced and the pastors have experienced it appears that very intensive psycho therapy may be the only hope for those who really want to escape it.  I do not think their family member will ever, ever agree to that.  So our focus is how to get through to OUR family member.  

 

 

[Χά�ων]

No advice but I wish you luck

[FaithManor]

Hope, if the abuse against your family member was of a type that is illegal, please try to get this investigated. Not only does a person who has sunk that low need to be stopped, but sometimes there are services available through victim's advocates that will pay for professional therapy. Oft times the only way to get these services is to press charges.

 

It is very scary to be the one that exposes or brings to light such allegations, but the beginning of healing can also start there and if nothing else, hopefully it may have a mitigating effect to prevent further abuse. I have know idea if this has happened. I wouldn't, sadly, be shocked because the lack of accountability coupled with the god-like status of the men in the group can, like any group dynamic that fosters control and domination, lead those with a predisposition to such behavior right.over.the.cliff.

[mommaduck]

Many prayers. This will be a long journey for them. I'm very familiar with cults like Vision Forum, ATI, and Charity Gospel Ministries.

[Hope44]

No. It wasn't illegal.  More like alienation of affection from our family and everything in our family member's background.  

[FaithManor]

I am sorry Hope. Alienation of affection is a huge problem. The cult seeks to isolate the members from anyone who would dare to disagree with the leadership. I doubt there is anything you can do UNLESS some asks to be harbored and definitely at that point, professionally therapy is a must. However, for all of those on the outside looking in, having been hurt by the actions of the family, the tentacles of the cult, counseling isn't a bad idea for everyone else either. Even a good family therapist who will come to the home and talk with everyone could be a great place to start.

 

 

[Liz CA]

All very typical of this type of organization. I agree with the suggestion to speak with a professional counselor in your area. You may also find books like "Toxic Faith" helpful. There are probably other resources more specifically geared toward cultish behavior, retention methods and possible repercussions.

[Hope44]

Thank you very much, everyone.  I am going to look into Toxic Faith.  We were seeing a counselor and trying to get the family member to go with us but it was before we were aware that this was cult related.  

[Lisa R.]

  I've learned that Gothardite men lie, perpetuate immorality, invent their own morality, don't follow even the rules that Gothard has laid out (but then again, he himself doesn't follow them either), and the women defend all of this to the hilt and are spiritually arrogant and mean.  This is what I've learned.  

 

I would be careful here with this type of thinking. 

 

I want to say that I'm familiar with Gothard teachings. I attended his seminars before he really got off track and know several Gothard families.

 

While Gothard has gotten stranger as the years have gone on, there are some lovely but misguided people that have followed. The ones I have known I would not characterize at all in the way you've done above. I'd also caution you to stop referring to all people that follow Gothard as belonging to a cult. I will not defend Gothard at all. However, I also think it's important to be fair and not be too heavy-handed the other way and paint all followers of his as cult members, with lying, immoral husbands and mean wives. This mindset will not help you at all as you deal with you family's situation. 

 

I think many of Gothard's followers start out as people who are fervent, black/white thinkers who want to do the right thing and desire for this to be spelled out for them. Gothard spells out say, seven ways to raise obedient children, 3 ways to have a better marriage, 7 ways to educate your children.  (He likes doing things in 3s and 7s.) It is prescribed and it appears that there is almost a guarantee that you will achieve certain results if you simply follow these points. If someone desires to have that "perfect' Christian family and lacks some critical thinking, they can be drawn in. 

 

Are there abusers in this group? Sure. Are there kind people who have lost their way? Sure. It may also encourage you to know that there are lots of former-Gotharites out there. There is hope.

 

Perhaps it would help if you viewed the people you're in conflict with as people who are caught up in legalism. They are also people that truly feel that following lists and lists of prescribed rules  will create the kind of Christian family they desire. Oftentimes, isolation becomes part of that. It seems like that is what you are dealing with, and I agree that it can be cult-like. Showing grace will go a long way. Judgement is a huge part of their lives and grace can be foreign. Seeing you demonstrate grace and kindness and patience will go much farther than if they receive more harsh judgements from you about where they've gone wrong. Trust me, they get enough of that already.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[umsami]

I didn't see it, but there's a lot going on so I just glanced, but there are some blog sites that deal with this.  One is called No Longer Quivering.  For some reason, I can't find the blog right now, but found their board http://nolongerquivering.proboards.com

 

There's also some stories of homeschoolers raised in the movement (and other philosophies as well), called Homeschool Anonymous. http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com

[mommaduck]

http://xatigirl.wordpress.com/

 

http://xatiguy.blogspot.com/

[ColleenInWis]

I've known a few families who were involved with ATI to varying degrees.  I thank God for the good sense my husband had to stay away from it!  I've done a little reading about it, and one repeating theme from those who criticize Gothard is GRACE.  His definition of grace was way off in the past, though it looks like perhaps he has changed it a bit recently.  Meanwhile, thousands of children grew up with an erroneous definition, like this blogger:  

 

 

Bill Gothard’s definition of grace is simply â€œthe desire and power to do God’s will.† For years this was what I believed grace to be.  It was a power that God gave that allowed me to personally accomplish the will of God.  And quite frankly, in a pure linquistic sense, that is the end result of God’s grace in salvation.  However, the grace of God goes far beyond that limited definition.

 

Our Sunday School definition is better, yet still doesn’t fully express what grace truly is:  “God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense.† I never truly understood what grace was until I entered salvation 6 years after graduating from Telos and entering marriage.  I had been taught IBLP’s mentality of grace for over 18 years, but I never grasped the depth and mercy found therein.

If you are not a Christian, you may not understand what my issue is here.  However, for the true believer, you know the unbelievable experience that God’s grace is...

 

Strength and grace to you, Hope, as you sort through the problem in your family.  Has anyone suggested this site, yet, Under Much Grace?  The author does extensive research and provides lots of links on many abusive and cultic groups.