Adding conceptual teaching to CLE Math gr. 3+

[jer2911mom]

If you use CLE math and add conceptual teaching to it, what do you use?  I was very impressed with the conceptual teaching in 1st grade and 2/3 of second grade.  Then I noticed that multi-digit subtraction with regrouping was taught as an algorithm.  In 3rd grade I am seeing the same issue with multi-digit multiplication and division.  They do such a good job in so many areas, but for some reason leave these lessons as procedural.  We have supplemented with Singapore and now MM instead, and also MUS.  I'm curious what you've found to be the easiest way to add the conceptual teaching to these lessons.  Because CLE is advanced in its scope, we are running into the teaching (or lack of) in CLE first, and I am scrambling to add the conceptual teaching.  We aren't "on level" with Singapore (stopped in the first part of 2B), MM (finishing Ch. 1 of 3A), or MUS (finished Beta) because it was just too much to do so much math.  I prefer CLE as our base program, but hitting the teaching of these topics there first is becoming an issue now.  I was curious what others have found to be good solutions.  I know I could jump ahead in MM and find the topics, but I prefer to work in order so as not to miss the building of skills/the foundation.  I did just order MUS Gamma and that should help with the multiplication issue.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[boscopup]

For subtraction with regrouping, I used MM (technically, my middle son didn't get there yet in CLE, but he wanted to do Beast Academy and passed the pre-assessment but hadn't done that topic yet, so I pulled out the MM2 sections on that topic and taught them in a week). We're using Beast Academy regularly now, so CLE 200 in the morning and BA 3 in the afternoon. BA will certainly cover anything conceptual that's missing, and it's fun, so the kid doesn't mind doing more math. ;)

 

Also, a lot of it is just knowing the conceptual stuff myself, so I can explain it if CLE doesn't do so that lesson. That's easier for me now that I've taken one kid through MM/Singapore grades 1-5 though. That kid is doing CLE 500 as review, and I don't worry about conceptual for him there, since it's all complete review, plus he's doing AoPS as his main program, and everything is incredibly conceptually explained there - sometimes overly so. :lol:

 

As far as jumping ahead in MM... MM tends to group things together such that you're not missing anything if you jump ahead. They don't string bits and pieces along like CLE does. So for subtraction with regrouping, I looked in the 2nd grade books and found the 3 sections that dealt with that, printed them out, did them. Easy peasy. It explained it well, and my son can now subtract with regrouping.

[SilverMoon]

With any math curriculum at that level, I'd still get out the math blocks and act out the problems with them. Cuisinaire Rods, 2x2 Legos, printed rod strips, or chopped up graph paper. *Something* they can hold in their hands. I'd act out a few, and step by step turn control of the blocks over to them, until they're explaining it to me. With bigger algorithms like multi-digit multiplication or long division, depending on the kid, we may bring the blocks out to demonstrate daily for a week or two. Until I know they've really got it.

[jer2911mom]

For subtraction with regrouping, I used MM (technically, my middle son didn't get there yet in CLE, but he wanted to do Beast Academy and passed the pre-assessment but hadn't done that topic yet, so I pulled out the MM2 sections on that topic and taught them in a week). We're using Beast Academy regularly now, so CLE 200 in the morning and BA 3 in the afternoon. BA will certainly cover anything conceptual that's missing, and it's fun, so the kid doesn't mind doing more math. ;)

 

Also, a lot of it is just knowing the conceptual stuff myself, so I can explain it if CLE doesn't do so that lesson. That's easier for me now that I've taken one kid through MM/Singapore grades 1-5 though. That kid is doing CLE 500 as review, and I don't worry about conceptual for him there, since it's all complete review, plus he's doing AoPS as his main program, and everything is incredibly conceptually explained there - sometimes overly so. :lol:

 

As far as jumping ahead in MM... MM tends to group things together such that you're not missing anything if you jump ahead. They don't string bits and pieces along like CLE does. So for subtraction with regrouping, I looked in the 2nd grade books and found the 3 sections that dealt with that, printed them out, did them. Easy peasy. It explained it well, and my son can now subtract with regrouping.

 

Thanks, that's good to know MM can be used in that way.  I'm so used to the slow build in CLE, I was concerned about missing something in MM.  Part of the problem is we haven't even hit the mult. chapter in 3A yet (it's next), so I hate to jump ahead to the multi-digit section in grade 4 when we haven't even covered the initial presentation.  This is where CLE moving ahead too quickly is biting us.  The kids are just learning their mult. facts in CLE and they've already jumped them to multi-digit multiplication.  The MUS is on the way and I think that will cover us for now.  I think once I get a handle on how to explain all this, I'll be better prepared for my younger dd when she hits it.  I learned very algorthmically and am having to take a step back and think through what's really happening and the best way to explain it.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

With any math curriculum at that level, I'd still get out the math blocks and act out the problems with them. Cuisinaire Rods, 2x2 Legos, printed rod strips, or chopped up graph paper. *Something* they can hold in their hands. I'd act out a few, and step by step turn control of the blocks over to them, until they're explaining it to me. With bigger algorithms like multi-digit multiplication or long division, depending on the kid, we may bring the blocks out to demonstrate daily for a week or two. Until I know they've really got it.

 

Thanks, this is my plan, once I figure out what to do with the blocks, lol.  I know how to handle the subtraction with regrouping but still am figuring out the best way to show the multi-digit mult. and div.  I just hadn't thought that far ahead yet and was thrown for a loop when I realized I had to come up with the teaching myself.  I think the MUS and MM will give me the ideas I need to present this with the blocks.  I love CLE but this one aspect drives me nutty. :)

 

Thanks again,

Kathy

[dsbrack]

You might want to take a peak at http://www.educationunboxed.com/.  She has many videos showing her teaching concepts with Cuisenaire rods to her daughters.  They have been VERY helpful for me to have a visual of using the blocks and I know she has some on multiplication and division.  HTH!

[jer2911mom]

Thank you!  I have looked at her videos before but didn't realize they include multiplication and division.  I'll take a look!

 

Kathy

[TracyP]

Unfortunately, the lack of conceptual teaching in CLE gets even worse as you get into the higher grades. I will second the recommendation to supplement with MM. We have gone through CLE 6/MM6 and found it to be a very good combo. I jumped around in MM as needed without a problem. I also skipped chapters in MM that were redundant: time, geometry, money. FWIW, you won't skip ahead as much in the higher grades. In grades 4-6 they are closely aligned; grade 6 MM will actually be ahead in many areas.

 

 

[jer2911mom]

Thanks, Tracy.  I was thinking about posting about the higher grades of CLE and asking how bad it gets.  Do you feel like CLE is still worth doing at those levels?  It's nice to hear you jumped around in MM without a problem.  So you considered CLE your "base" and MM your supplement?  Is there a reason why you didn't just use MM for those grades?  If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. :) How long do you plan to use CLE?  Are you trying to hit algebra in 8th?  Are you accelerating CLE?  Do you plan to use the new MM pre-algebra when it comes out?  Do you have to cut things out of CLE to be able to continue two maths in 4th-6th?  I don't want to burn my dd out.  I've heard the 4th grade level of CLE is tough because they throw too many things at the child at once without enough time to absorb the material.  Did you find that to be true?

 

Thanks!
Kathy

[TracyP]

Thanks, Tracy.  I was thinking about posting about the higher grades of CLE and asking how bad it gets.  Do you feel like CLE is still worth doing at those levels?  It's nice to hear you jumped around in MM without a problem.  So you considered CLE your "base" and MM your supplement?  Is there a reason why you didn't just use MM for those grades?  If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. :) How long do you plan to use CLE?  Are you trying to hit algebra in 8th?  Are you accelerating CLE?  Do you plan to use the new MM pre-algebra when it comes out?  Do you have to cut things out of CLE to be able to continue two maths in 4th-6th?  I don't want to burn my dd out.  I've heard the 4th grade level of CLE is tough because they throw too many things at the child at once without enough time to absorb the material.  Did you find that to be true?

 

Thanks!

Kathy

 

I considered CLE my base and added MM until 5th grade. At that point I pretty much went through MM start to finish (skipping the chapters I mentioned above). I tried to use only MM a couple times, but there was never enough review for dd. This was with the old version, so it is possible that the new would have been better. Plus I really like CLE. I wish the conceptual teaching was deeper, but some concepts they teach really well, the slow build up of concepts means that the kids learn so much w/o it feeling hard, it covers everything, my kids like spiral, and I love the built in memory work. Now that I can teach it conceptually, I am using CLE with my younger kids. I supplement for deeper thinking and fun, not out of necessity.

 

DD is just beginning CLE 702. We started this year doing only MM, but when I realized MM wasn't going to last we went back to CLE. I will probably stick with CLE, but only for review. The 6-8th grade years should be condensed into about 1.5 years, IMO. They really stretch out those years. Since I am using it for review only at this point, that works for us.

 

I wanted to use MM 7, but I think dd will be past it. So much of the old MM6 is being moved to 7 that I don't think there will be much there for us. I will probably buy it when it comes out though, and use it as a teaching tool for any concept that stymies us. My plan for next year is to give AoPS PreAlgebra a try. I will keep CLE as a 1 day per week review. I haven't ruled out using CLE Algebra if AoPS isn't a good fit.

 

My dd wasn't accelerated until I started combining CLE and MM. It was the craziest thing. The combo of constant, systematic review in CLE and conceptual teaching in MM made her move through both programs faster than she had been moving in CLE alone. Or maybe it was age, I dunno. If you want to hit Algebra in grade 8, it would be easy to get through CLE 7 and 8 in a year. Some people have even skipped CLE 8.

 

We did not find 4th grade CLE any different than any other year.

 

I skip the quizzes and tests in CLE. That leaves 13 lessons per LU. I always skip -01. With the 117 lessons that are left, you could do CLE 3 days per week and MM 2 days. I actually skipped CLE 108-110 (except year 3) of each year without a problem. I don't know if that is good advice across the board, but it worked for us. Sometimes we would do 2 days CLE, 3 days MM lesson. Or 1/2 lesson CLE each day, 1/2 lesson MM each day. Often we would do a whole CLE lesson, but I cut out a lot of review so it only took 10 minutes or so and left time for a full MM lesson (split in half if it was long).

 

I hope that last part wasn't too confusing. :tongue_smilie: When I started combining, I would only use the parts of MM where we needed the extra instruction. I would look ahead to see where I wanted to intro a concept with MM. It was very easy at that point to print just the pages that I needed and stick 1-2 days of MM into the week. It was later when I went to (mostly) full MM and added CLE that it got confusing. You may find a better way. :)

[jer2911mom]

I considered CLE my base and added MM until 5th grade. At that point I pretty much went through MM start to finish (skipping the chapters I mentioned above). I tried to use only MM a couple times, but there was never enough review for dd. This was with the old version, so it is possible that the new would have been better. Plus I really like CLE. I wish the conceptual teaching was deeper, but some concepts they teach really well, the slow build up of concepts means that the kids learn so much w/o it feeling hard, it covers everything, my kids like spiral, and I love the built in memory work. Now that I can teach it conceptually, I am using CLE with my younger kids. I supplement for deeper thinking and fun, not out of necessity.

 

DD is just beginning CLE 702. We started this year doing only MM, but when I realized MM wasn't going to last we went back to CLE. I will probably stick with CLE, but only for review. The 6-8th grade years should be condensed into about 1.5 years, IMO. They really stretch out those years. Since I am using it for review only at this point, that works for us.

 

I wanted to use MM 7, but I think dd will be past it. So much of the old MM6 is being moved to 7 that I don't think there will be much there for us. I will probably buy it when it comes out though, and use it as a teaching tool for any concept that stymies us. My plan for next year is to give AoPS PreAlgebra a try. I will keep CLE as a 1 day per week review. I haven't ruled out using CLE Algebra if AoPS isn't a good fit.

 

My dd wasn't accelerated until I started combining CLE and MM. It was the craziest thing. The combo of constant, systematic review in CLE and conceptual teaching in MM made her move through both programs faster than she had been moving in CLE alone. Or maybe it was age, I dunno. If you want to hit Algebra in grade 8, it would be easy to get through CLE 7 and 8 in a year. Some people have even skipped CLE 8.

 

We did not find 4th grade CLE any different than any other year.

 

I skip the quizzes and tests in CLE. That leaves 13 lessons per LU. I always skip -01. With the 117 lessons that are left, you could do CLE 3 days per week and MM 2 days. I actually skipped CLE 108-110 (except year 3) of each year without a problem. I don't know if that is good advice across the board, but it worked for us. Sometimes we would do 2 days CLE, 3 days MM lesson. Or 1/2 lesson CLE each day, 1/2 lesson MM each day. Often we would do a whole CLE lesson, but I cut out a lot of review so it only took 10 minutes or so and left time for a full MM lesson (split in half if it was long).

 

I hope that last part wasn't too confusing. :tongue_smilie: When I started combining, I would only use the parts of MM where we needed the extra instruction. I would look ahead to see where I wanted to intro a concept with MM. It was very easy at that point to print just the pages that I needed and stick 1-2 days of MM into the week. It was later when I went to (mostly) full MM and added CLE that it got confusing. You may find a better way. :)

 

Thanks, Tracy!  I think the biggest issue I have right now is not knowing how to teach some of these things conceptually.  We ran into another issue with CLE today and I am starting to get frustrated when I realize after the fact that either the teaching was completely procedural or it was procedural and taught some of the concept but not as much as it should have and my dd is confused because she doesn't remember the procedure, instead of truly understanding what is going on.  She's not a math genius but she's not slow with math, either.  When she is taught properly, she catches on quickly.  I don't know what to do because we keep hitting the teaching first in CLE and are nowhere near that stuff in MM.  Since this is our first year with MM, I'd really like to go through it as written to get a better feel for it and how it teaches things.  But I'm tired of hitting new teaching in CLE that is incomplete.

 

Did you ever look at BJU?  It seems like they have added enough review and with the reviews book it might work at this point.  They do include more facts practice than MM.  They also include some bar modeling, which I didn't know until recently.  And they definitely give a conceptual presentation.  

 

I do like that CLE is gentle and builds on itself, but I feel like it is starting to do my dd a disservice with the lack of conceptual teaching in several areas.  I don't want her focused on procedures, which I am starting to noticed more and more and feeling a bit alarmed about.  It has so many good things about it, but I just don't know that I can keep it as our base anymore.  I really am getting less and less comfortable with new teaching coming from there.  Until I've been through another program and can add that teaching myself, I feel like I may need to switch to something that does that teaching for me, or shows me how to do it.  I'm not sure just looking ahead in MM is the answer.  I didn't really feel like what I saw when I looked ahead was exactly what I wanted for the multi-digit multiplication.  I felt like I was missing something from somewhere else, which I might have been.  But it's hard to know without combing through everything that was previously taught.  I just don't know what to do at this point.  Uggh.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[TracyP]

When she is taught properly, she catches on quickly. 

 

 

Yeah, that is totally my dd.

 

I am not familiar with BJU, but it sounds like switching to BJU or MM might be best in your situation. If you are nervous about math hopping, you could even do one CLE lesson per week while you give something else a trial run for the rest of the year.

 

I do like that CLE is gentle and builds on itself, but I feel like it is starting to do my dd a disservice with the lack of conceptual teaching in several areas.  I don't want her focused on procedures, which I am starting to noticed more and more and feeling a bit alarmed about.  It has so many good things about it, but I just don't know that I can keep it as our base anymore.  I really am getting less and less comfortable with new teaching coming from there.  Until I've been through another program and can add that teaching myself, I feel like I may need to switch to something that does that teaching for me, or shows me how to do it.  I'm not sure just looking ahead in MM is the answer.  I didn't really feel like what I saw when I looked ahead was exactly what I wanted for the multi-digit multiplication.  I felt like I was missing something from somewhere else, which I might have been.  But it's hard to know without combing through everything that was previously taught.  I just don't know what to do at this point.  Uggh.

 

 

Whatever you decide...I really liked the way BA taught multi digit multiplication. They taught it as area of a large rectangle. So 26*3 is a rectangle with sides 3 and 26. You break the rectangle into pieces 3*10 + 3*10 + 3*6 or 3*20 + 3*6. When you are comfortable with this you can easily see that

 

26

x3

18

60

78

 

You can draw pictures or use manipulatives for as long as needed. My ds has been doing CLE this way. He is in the beginning of CLE 4 and I plan to introduce him to the algorithm today or tomorrow.

 

If you do stay with CLE, I will give you a heads up. Fractions is another area where the teaching is completely procedural. Multi digit division is also weak - they try, but don't quite get there. Oh, and ratios are very procedural, too. I would plan to supplement those topics. OTOH, when it comes to decimals, percents, and (+,-) with negative integers, the teaching has been very good.

[jer2911mom]

Yeah, that is totally my dd.

 

I am not familiar with BJU, but it sounds like switching to BJU or MM might be best in your situation. If you are nervous about math hopping, you could even do one CLE lesson per week while you give something else a trial run for the rest of the year.

 

Whatever you decide...I really liked the way BA taught multi digit multiplication. They taught it as area of a large rectangle. So 26*3 is a rectangle with sides 3 and 26. You break the rectangle into pieces 3*10 + 3*10 + 3*6 or 3*20 + 3*6. When you are comfortable with this you can easily see that

 

26

x3

18

60

78

 

You can draw pictures or use manipulatives for as long as needed. My ds has been doing CLE this way. He is in the beginning of CLE 4 and I plan to introduce him to the algorithm today or tomorrow.

 

If you do stay with CLE, I will give you a heads up. Fractions is another area where the teaching is completely procedural. Multi digit division is also weak - they try, but don't quite get there. Oh, and ratios are very procedural, too. I would plan to supplement those topics. OTOH, when it comes to decimals, percents, and (+,-) with negative integers, the teaching has been very good.

 

Thanks, Tracy!  That's a good idea to do CLE one time a week to make some forward progress in case we need to come back to it.  It sounds like BA teaches multi digit mult. the way MUS does (using blocks to show the area).  I grasped this from watching one of the MUS samples, but when it came to teaching the lesson in CLE, I stumbled in the presentation because I hadn't realized I needed to be prepared to present it like that.  I prefer having that conceptual teaching all laid out for me.  It seems more and more like I need to use a different program to present the conceptual teaching, and we need to be moving ahead of CLE in that program if we continue to use CLE so that CLE is not where we are getting our teaching from.  I don't regret using CLE up until now, though, because my dd has learned her facts well and that doesn't hinder her in her conceptual work.  She also has a good understanding of place value, fractions, etc. that CLE did a good job with early on.  But I think it's time to switch off to something else for the actual teaching.

 

Thanks for the heads up about other areas in CLE where the teaching is completely procedural.  That confirms my thoughts that I shouldn't be relying on it for our main teaching anymore.  Now to figure out which program to use for our conceptual teaching base.  Singapore was okay but it was a lot trying to teach it and cover CLE, too.  The MM worktext worked better for us as far as requiring less teaching from me but still getting the points across while using two programs, but I'm concerned about the lack of manips and I know I won't use them unless it's written into the teaching.  My dd is visual, so MM seems to work for her okay, but I still wonder if better graphics and using manips wouldn't be better at this point.  BJU does all that.  I'm just hesitant to switch fully to BJU because it's not quite up there with Singapore and MM with bar modeling and mental math.  I could add the Process Skills and Math Express books to BJU for those components.  I don't know if that would be a good solution or not.  BJU does focus on critical thinking, which I appreciate.  It seems to be middle ground between CLE and Singapore style programs, with a more traditional scope and sequence but more conceptual teaching and even some bar modeling.  We've also tried MIF but the bar modeling in 2nd grade threw my dd for a loop.  It was not done well in the TM and just was too much too soon for her.  I don't really care for the setup of it, either. The other options are to try sticking with just MM and see if it is enough, but BJU does a better job with facts practice and review, which I think my dd will need, especially since she is used to it in CLE.  Or we could try Singapore again and add the IP books for review.  We haven't ever finished CWP 1.  I just know that I'll have to add facts practice and I'm not great at remembering or being disciplined enough to do that without it being scheduled.  Or we could try to make more forward progress in MM and continue to do CLE more delayed.  But the problem is that CLE seems to be a whole year ahead of MM in several areas and we are just now finishing the first chapter of grade 3, so it's going to be hard to get to the teaching in MM first.  Also factoring into all this is I'd feel better if we could finish a 3rd grade program this year.  I've always finished the grade level of CLE and felt like even though we were behind in Singapore or MUS, we were still on grade level with our base.  We've only gotten to the beginning of Singapore 2B and through MUS Beta.  Now I feel like we'll be behind in our base if we don't finish out the year with CLE.  But I'm more and more concerned about CLE and don't know if it's worth it to continue the rest of the year.  I feel like we're really missing some important teaching right now.  MM will catch some of that, but my dd sure is having to do a lot of math every day.  It's been like this since K and she's gone from loving math to not and that makes me sad.  I need to lighten her load.  I've really been wanting to use one program for her if at all possible but that one program that blends traditional and conceptual well just doesn't seem to exist.  BJU is probably the closest thing I've seen.  But I wonder if I'll be sacrificing both sides to use a program in the middle.  It would help if I had some hindsight on what is really needed for these ages.  Thanks for your insights. :)

 

Thanks again,

Kathy

[ncmomof5]

Very interesting thread.  I am dealing with the same issue - using CLE and finding that the conceptual understanding is not strong enough.  My ds just finished CLE LU 210 and we have hit a wall on his understanding of multiplication.  It was explained in CLE (better and more conceptually than I remember being taught it), but my son just didn't get it.  I have tried explaining it to him myself, but, especially the concept of multiplying zero, has just been more than he can grasp.  He tries so hard, and it breaks my heart to see those big tears fall and hear his little voice squeak out, "It's just too hard, Mom.  I don't understand it."  :sad: 

 

 

Well, I have used MM in the past, but mostly as a supplement.  This week I bought and downloaded the multiplication 1 workbook and started that with him today.  NOW, he is starting to get it.  Hallelujah! 

 

My question is this:  Could I use the topical series of MM instead of the graded series to supplement conceptual teaching while using CLE?  Would that be easier to plug in or not? 

 

My 2 sons that are using CLE do very well with the spiral, incremental style of CLE, but I do see where there is room for improvement in the presentation of conceptual material. 

 

Thanks so much for this conversation.

 

RuthAnn

[TracyP]

...I've really been wanting to use one program for her if at all possible but that one program that blends traditional and conceptual well just doesn't seem to exist.  BJU is probably the closest thing I've seen.  But I wonder if I'll be sacrificing both sides to use a program in the middle.  It would help if I had some hindsight on what is really needed for these ages.  Thanks for your insights. :)

 

Thanks again,

Kathy

 

Yes, I have so wished for the bolded! I'm glad I could help. Good luck! :)

[TracyP]

My question is this:  Could I use the topical series of MM instead of the graded series to supplement conceptual teaching while using CLE?  Would that be easier to plug in or not? 

 

 

That would definitely work.

[jer2911mom]

Very interesting thread.  I am dealing with the same issue - using CLE and finding that the conceptual understanding is not strong enough.  My ds just finished CLE LU 210 and we have hit a wall on his understanding of multiplication.  It was explained in CLE (better and more conceptually than I remember being taught it), but my son just didn't get it.  I have tried explaining it to him myself, but, especially the concept of multiplying zero, has just been more than he can grasp.  He tries so hard, and it breaks my heart to see those big tears fall and hear his little voice squeak out, "It's just too hard, Mom.  I don't understand it."  :sad:

 

 

Well, I have used MM in the past, but mostly as a supplement.  This week I bought and downloaded the multiplication 1 workbook and started that with him today.  NOW, he is starting to get it.  Hallelujah! 

 

My question is this:  Could I use the topical series of MM instead of the graded series to supplement conceptual teaching while using CLE?  Would that be easier to plug in or not? 

 

My 2 sons that are using CLE do very well with the spiral, incremental style of CLE, but I do see where there is room for improvement in the presentation of conceptual material. 

 

Thanks so much for this conversation.

 

RuthAnn

 

RuthAnn, it was the last 1/3 of the 2nd grade level of CLE that I saw the conceptual teaching start to deteriorate.  I actually emailed Mr. Glick this week asking them to take a look at their multi-digit subtraction and multiplication chapters and the lack of conceptual teaching there.  I would think using the MM topical series would definitely help flush out CLE.  It's a matter of how much you want to try to align things and figure out what to teach when.  If you get a good schedule, please let me know. :)  

[ncmomof5]

kand,

 

Okay, so you are using MM Blue series to introduce concepts and then following up with CLE?  Interesting.  Do you think this is helping you get through the grade levels faster?  My one son is in third grade and just finished CLE's 2nd grade math.  My older son is in 6th grade and is in CLE LU 503.  I don't want to slow them down, but I do want to make sure they are "getting it".  KWIM? 

Trying to think through the best way to tackle this.  Thanks for your help and input. 

 

RuthAnn

[ncmomof5]

jer2911mom,

 

Thanks for the encouragement, and if I do get a good schedule figured out, I will be sure to share.  :)  Hope you find what you are looking for.

 

RuthAnn

[jer2911mom]

Are you doing the whole lesson in CLE?  We're coming at this from the other direction: my dd has been using MM until this year, when I switched just her to CLE.  It's made math much, much better for her, but I have the benefit of having done levels 1-6 of MM between all my kids at some point, so I can add in the conceptual teaching myself.  If I hadn't, I would be tempted to use the topical series from MM to introduce a topic, then do the CLE lessons in abbreviated fashion.  That's how we're doing CLE this year, because we back-tracked and want to cover two years in one this year.  I mark the problems my dd needs to do, always including the new teaching for the lesson, and then a sampling of each kind of review question, so that she she only does about 1/3 of the problems in each lesson, and covers 2 lessons (sometimes 3) in one day.  If I were using MM for introducing concepts, I would introduce it with MM, then do that lesson in CLE, completing only 1/2 the problems or so.  That way, it wouldn't feel like an overwhelming amount of math.

 

We are currently doing the whole CLE lesson.  Toward the end of last year, I started cutting out problems and that helped.  If she got half of the same type right, she didn't have to do the other half.  It seems like this year there are fewer of the same type, but I need to look into cutting things out again.  Thanks for the reminder.  And I've thought about doing the new part of two and half the review before.  Thanks for the reminder that I may be able to do CLE that way to make room for another program.  Maybe I could do MM more days each week that way and just double up the CLE but slice the review on the days we do it.  We also don't do quizzes, just the tests.  I still need to address the issue of getting the teaching from somewhere else, though.  It doesn't have to be for every lesson, just some of them.  I don't like having to spend time figuring that out.  It's not as clear-cut because of CLE's spiraling nature.

 

Why are you going from MM to CLE, if you don't mind me asking?  Was there not enough review?  Not enough facts practice?

 

What level of CLE did you come into from MM?  Do you feel like CLE's scope and sequence is ahead of MM's in a lot of areas?

 

Have you ever looked at BJU?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

Yes, I have so wished for the bolded! I'm glad I could help. Good luck! :)

 

Thanks, Tracy.  One more question for you.  You said, "I supplement for deeper thinking and fun, not out of necessity."  What are you supplementing with for your younger ones?  MM?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

My oldest stayed with MM through 6B and my 2nd grader iss currently doing MM2B, so it's just my 5th grader I switched to CLE.  She's my 2e one, and MM just wasn't going well, and she was miserable over math.  I think primarily the lack of review built in, and the lots of problems all the same was overwhelming to her, I think.  She would learn something one day, and then have no idea how to do it anymore the next day (pretty typical with dyslexics).  That has been almost totally resolved with the switch to CLE.  Sometimes she'll forget something (today she forgot to put the place holder zeros in a multi-digit multiplication problem, but she does know that they should be there--she just forgot).  We still have a little math attitude sometimes, but more often than not she's fine with doing it now.  She was near the beginning of MM4B and we switched into CLE400.  I didn't think of accelerating it the first two months of the school year, but somewhere around 403 it struck me she could handle two lessons a day, with the review cut back so it was equivalent to no more than one lesson.  She's now about to move into 408.  I don't think CLE's overall scope and sequence is ahead of (the old version of) Math Mammoth, but I think CLE introduces many more topics in each level.  That was the main reason we had to back up in it--to catch the intro stuff for decimals, fractions, etc, which we hadn't gotten in MM yet.  I still really like MM and it's my program of choice, but I think CLE is fantastically done for a student who needs the constant repetition for something to really cement in their head and become part of their permanent knowledge.

 

Thank you!  Do/did you add anything to MM for your other two or use it as-is?  Do you use any manips with it?  Do you add any facts practice or speed drills?

 

What did your oldest go to after 6B?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[TracyP]

Thanks, Tracy.  One more question for you.  You said, "I supplement for deeper thinking and fun, not out of necessity."  What are you supplementing with for your younger ones?  MM?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

 

I am supplementing with Beast Academy and Zaccaro's PGCM. Beast Academy is my first choice, but we have outpaced it. I am waiting for 4B to be released, then we will probably go back to BA for 4A and 4B. MM is just so stinkin' dry. I love MM, but it isn't what I would call fun. ;)

[jer2911mom]

My 2nd grader is doing Xtra math for facts practice.  I had my older two use it for awhile a couple years back, but it didn't work very well for them (especially not for my one who's in CLE).  The time pressure was counter-productive for them.  I very occasionally pull out math blocks or something, but mostly it hasn't been necessary.  Most of my kids seem to get annoyed by too much use of manips after awhile, for some reason.  I think it feels like an extra step that's just making math take longer, and that's the last thing they want, lol.  Everyone does some LOF here and there, but not on a scheduled basis; they just enjoy the books.  I don't even consider it a supplement or part of our math program in any way right now.  (Our library has the books, so it's easy to just pick a couple up and have them around for kids to read as they feel like it.)

 

My oldest did a year of Algebra-lite after 6B.  The first several chapters of Jacobs Algebra 1, much of LOF Algebra 1 (that was one occasion we did use it as an actual curriculum), Zacarro's Real World Algebra.  I could tell she wasn't ready for an intense Algebra year yet, maturity-wise.  She's now doing "real" Algebra 1 this year, and will go on to Geometry next year, as a 9th grader.  This was coming from the original version of MM6B.  With the new cc-aligned version, I don't think a student would be ready for even algebra-lite after 6B.  The pre-algebra/7th grade level will be preparation for Algebra.

 

Thank you!

[jer2911mom]

I am supplementing with Beast Academy and Zaccaro's PGCM. Beast Academy is my first choice, but we have outpaced it. I am waiting for 4B to be released, then we will probably go back to BA for 4A and 4B. MM is just so stinkin' dry. I love MM, but it isn't what I would call fun. ;)

 

I agree, MM is a tad dry. :) My dd likes the puzzle corners, but it does lack visual appeal.

 

Thanks again!

Kathy

[kagmypts]

I am in a similar boat right now.  At what point did you leave CLE, and into which program/level did you go?