Physics: Knight vs Giancoli

[pooh bear]

Looking ahead to 9th grade I asked about doing science via the WTM way. After reading all the comments and reading a lot of posts on the forum, I've decided that we will not be using the WTM way but going with textbooks instead.

 

I like the idea of physics first, so again I've been reading a lot of posts on the options out there. I've narrowed it down to two options: Knight and Giancoli. 

 

My ds is using Saxon Algebra I at the moment, but he is getting frustrated with it. There is not enough explanation as to why things are done the way they are (he's been using Saxon since Math 5/4, so he's used to the way that the material is presented). He wants/needs more, so I'll be getting the AoPS Intro to Counting & Probability and Intro to Number Theory books for him. If those go well, then we will try to get the Intro to Algebra finished (the website says that you if you have done some algebra before then you can just do the second half of the book) before 9th grade starts in September.

 

So with that in mind I'm guessing I'll need an algebra based physics course. I know that Knights is, but what about Giancoli? I've searched the forum, but I can't seem to find a clear answer.

 

I have no science knowledge and will need a lot of hand holding teaching this subject. I like that with Giancoli there are a couple of websites that have lesson plans and videos. This is one that I particularity like: Giancoli Answers

 

Will it be easy to get the answer/solution books for either of these titles? Are they needed?

 

Is it OK to buy older editions of these books? I'm guessing that the material doesn't really change that much between editions, does it?

[EKS]

 

I have no science knowledge and will need a lot of hand holding teaching this subject.

 

If this is the case, I'd strongly recommend signing your son up for a class taught by a subject matter expert.  For example, Derek Owens offers a physics class that is based on Giancoli.  He says that Algebra I skills are all that are required because he teaches the necessary trig during the course.  Personally, I think it is preferable for the student to have taken Algebra II as well.

 

I think it would be a rare 9th grader who could learn physics effectively independently from Giancoli.  It is quite a tome.

 

FWIW, I do have an extensive science background (degree in biochemistry, took 6 quarters of physics, and  homeschooled conceptual physics successfully) and I know I couldn't have supported my son with Giancoli.  I am assuming that Knight is similar.

 

[regentrude]

If this is the case, I'd strongly recommend signing your son up for a class taught by a subject matter expert. ...

 

I think it would be a rare 9th grader who could learn physics effectively independently from Giancoli.  It is quite a tome.

 

FWIW, I do have an extensive science background (degree in biochemistry, took 6 quarters of physics, and  homeschooled conceptual physics successfully) and I know I couldn't have supported my son with Giancoli.  I am assuming that Knight is similar.

 

I second the recommendation for a class or tutor. Both are good texts, but I find it unrealistic to expect a 9th grader (yes, I know there will be rare exceptions) to self-study physics from a college text without access to an adult who has the necessary expertise to help out with discussing concepts and problems. It does not have to be a class, it could be a tutor or mentor, somebody who is available occasionally - but if you are lacking any science knowledge as you say, lesson plans from  the internet won't be much help. (In fact, I have a hard time understanding what people want with "lesson plans" anyway, because everything is in the text, and if it's not a scheduled class, you progress at whatever speed works for the student)

 

ETA: as far as editions go, there is no new content, so old editions are fine. Some people have reported it being necessary to purchase the current edition in order to obtain access to instructor resources from the publisher; search for Sebastian's threads on Knight. I can't comment on the value of the instructor resources since I do not use them.

I also do not think it matters greatly which text is used. I like Knight because I like his style of writing and find it more readable, but that really is more of a personal preference. All the introductory texts cover the same material, with slight variations in order.

[regentrude]

 

My ds is using Saxon Algebra I at the moment, but he is getting frustrated with it. There is not enough explanation as to why things are done the way they are (he's been using Saxon since Math 5/4, so he's used to the way that the material is presented). He wants/needs more, so I'll be getting the AoPS Intro to Counting & Probability and Intro to Number Theory books for him. If those go well, then we will try to get the Intro to Algebra finished (the website says that you if you have done some algebra before then you can just do the second half of the book) before 9th grade starts in September.

 

I would like to comment on the bolded.

I do NOT think it a good idea to cover algebra 1 with a generic text and omit the first half of the AoPS Intro to Algebra text, especially not if your DS is frustrated with the lack of explanations. I strongly recommend starting AoPS Intro to Algebra from the beginning and simply going fast if it turns out that he has already mastered the material on AoPS level. The conceptual depth and level of thinking required is very different from other programs, and skipping the algebra 1 portion of the book will do your student a disservice.

In fact, I would find it much more important to cover the first part of AoPS Intro to Algebra (through ch. 13 or 14) thoroughly than the second part or C&P/NT. This math will be the foundation for all further higher math your student will take, and any time spent on a through mastery is well invested.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

my son, an 11th grader, is having difficulties with Giancoli, which is the text that PA Homeschoolers use for their AP classes. In math, he's in pre-calculus. I'm having a hard time seeing a regular 9th grader go through GIancoli, especially on their own. (yeah, I know there are exceptions, but truth be told, I expected my son to be an exception, but he's hitting his wall here. He flew through AP Chemistry in 6 weeks. He flew through AOPS math. But Giancoli is a no go for him

 

As for me, I like the text. You can find it in electronic format online for free so just take a look. 

[swimmermom3]

Pooh Bear,

 

I think what you want for ninth grade is a "conceptual" physics course utilizing a text like Paul Hewitt's Conceptual Physics. There are newer editions than the one I linked you to, but besides the cost advantage, the older text has not been "dumbed" down like the newer editions. A conceptual physics course will give your son a solid introduction to topics like Newton's Laws of Motion, properties of matter, thermodynamics, electric current, and the like. This in turn, will prepare him for chemistry. Hewitt's text is very accessible and it really is as easy as regentrude says with regards to just working your way through the text. If you have time, do the book with your son, perhaps staying a chapter ahead. You can ask questions on the board for anything that puzzles you. I can't fly quite as free as regentrude can, but I am working on it and it certainly has made my life easier without sacrificing any academic progress. :tongue_smilie:

 

The book has check-yourself questions, review questions, projects, and exercises for the student. There is also recommended reading so if you want to bring living books into the picture, you can. You can expand or contract the class to meet your son's needs. By working ahead, you can look for great videos to pull him in.

 

 

[swimmermom3]

I forgot to add Connie's thread with all the great resources.

[lewelma]

I have sat down with Knight and Giancoli and done a side by side comparison. They are both really readable and as Regentrude states, they cover the same material.  I chose Knight, however, because it has better, clearer graphs in the text, AND even more importantly, has an incredibly strong emphasis on conceptual understanding through graphing before even 1 math problem is attempted.  I felt strongly enough about it that I was willing to go through the annoying fight to obtain the teacher resources for Knight (I understand that Giancoli's teacher materials are much easier to get).

 

However, I completely agree with PPs that it will only be the very rare student that will handle either book without a teacher.  I have taken physics, but remember very little of it, so I have decided to work on it concurrently with ds (not together, but I keep up).  So far all I have had to do is stop bad habits from forming (the hunt for the equation approach rather than a proper setup), but I anticipate that even with my Very mathy and Very independent son, he will still need me to be there as a co-learner (never a teacher with my boy).

 

So get a class and use whatever book they tell you to.

 

Ruth in NZ

[swimmermom3]

I think I may have missed something here?

 

Hewitt's Conceptual Physics book or something like it would be my one exception to using a high school text in place of an introductory college text, especially if the teacher and the student were a bit science-shy. You can get your feet wet with it for ninth grade and then Chang or Zumdahl for Chemistry or Campbell for Biology doesn't look nearly as intimidating. If you use a slightly older edition, it will be formatted like a college text versus the newer editions which are formatted more like an high school text.

 

9th grade - Conceptual Physics

10th grade - Chemistry

11th grade - Biology

12th grade - Physics with something like Knight or Giancoli or whatever regentrude says to use :D

 

 

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

 

9th grade - Conceptual Physics

10th grade - Chemistry

11th grade - Biology

12th grade - Physics

I totally agree with this sequence, except that we start it in grade 8. That leaves room for one extra high school level science class, should the student want one. 

[Brenda in MA]

9th grade - Conceptual Physics

10th grade - Chemistry

11th grade - Biology

12th grade - Physics with something like Knight or Giancoli or whatever regentrude says to use :D

This is what we did as well, but we started in 8th grade with CP -- which both my ds and I loved. He went on to use Spectrum for Chem in 9th and Miller/Levine for Bio in 10th grade.

 

He used Giancoli in 11th with the PA Homeschoolers AP Physics B course. I agree with Ruth that it would be a rare student who could go through Giancoli on his/her own, even in 11th grade (ds was also taking Calc at the same time). When my son used the Giancoli book, I was his co-learner, as Ruth described. We went through the text together and worked the examples, then he did the assigned problems, and I only assisted if he needed help. He ended up doing well in the course and on the AP exam, and he learned a ton. We both liked Giancoli. I also used it with my older son in a similar fashion. I've never seen the Knight book for comparison, though.

 

I would definitely suggest having a 9th grader start with CP.

 

Brenda