AP vs. dual enrollment at 4 year schools?

[LNC]

Dual enrollment is offered at Bryan and Cedarville and we are strongly considering Belhaven High Scholars for 11th/12th.

 

My daughter does not want to load up on high stakes tests every May.

 

Positives for dual enrollment:

1 semester

Christian schools

$450 for 3 credit hours

 

We are considering:

Psychology and college writing instead of AP Psych and Potter's school advanced comp in 10th. If I can confirm schools like Baylor and UnCCH take credits, Belhaven will provide humanities credits for 11th and 12th.

 

She will take AP Latin and AP (prob AB) Calc still. We are considering Sciences and Gov't at Cedarville instead of AP.

 

I haven't heard this option on the boards much. Will the credits transfer easily? It is less expensive than AP, 1 semester, and no high stakes test. Seems like a lot of positives.

 

I took all AP my junior year, but chose to dual enrollment at Emory university my senior year. It was a vastly better experience than 4 AP classes the year before. My daughter is very bright, with Duke Tip awards to validate it. Her long term goals are to work with specjal needs children and teens, hopefully as a speech pathologist. A scholarship to a university would be great, but my full scholarship was based 100% on SAT scores.

[creekland]

I feel pretty certain Christian schools will accept the credits. You'll have to check with UNCCH. Some higher level schools don't accept ANY DE credits. Others do. Since it's a state school I'd lean toward them accepting the credits, but I honestly don't know for sure. Having a son who attends one of the higher level schools that does not accept DE credits, it generally is because the classes are not as in depth as their own, but again, a state school may differ. Pittsburgh would have accepted my guy's credits..

 

Your plan, in general, sounds good. Personally, I wouldn't want a student having to deal with oodles of AP tests in May when there was other options.

[Nan in Mass]

There have been people here who had their children dual-enroll in their local 4-year (rather than community college). Margaret in CO, Gwen, and Regentrude have, I'm pretty sure? We thought about four options: AP online, AP at local public school, 4-year, and community college. We chose community college because we were not interested in any high-stakes tests and for my children, a formal classroom situation was going to be new and starting with the more forgiving and supportive community college seemed like a better idea than throwing them straight into regular college classes. In our case, this worked out very well. They appeared to be enough the equivalence of AP's that they helped get my children into college (with scholarships) and for the STEM classes and drawing, as far as I could tell, the material was about what it would have been at the 4-year college. It was a very different experience from AP classes, judging from speaking with my nieces and nephews. Their cc classes were full of struggling students with a few bright but poor ones. An AP class at the local very good public school would have been all bright students. The difference in the amount of material covered and the level of discussion and challenge are very different. On the other hand, the goals of the two classes are different - one is aimed at preparing the student for the next level class (or job or knowledge in general) and the other is aimed at the AP test. Both aims have their advantages. The community college avoided some of the social nonsense that occurs in a high school setting, but so would being in an AP class rather than a gym class (for example). I would think that some of my son's experience with dimmer students would be avoided by dual enrolling at a good 4-year college, but my niece's AP class is full of students who are going to wind up at ivy leagues or their equivalent. The level of bright inquisitiveness is pretty high lol. If my son hadn't already had a group of friends and cousins with that same bright inquisitiveness, I would have structured his education very differently, aiming it at the local AP classes rather than letting him traipse all over the world and leaving him to run amok with his soldering iron and the internet at home, then suddenly dumping him into community college classes. I can almost guarantee that if I had suddenly dumped him into AP classes, it wouldn't have worked. The classroom learning curve would have been too steep for him to manage. My children are just brightish, not bright enough for AP classes to be easy enough for them to learn the material along with how to learn out of a textbook and remember to put their name on their paper. Our experience is likely to be very different than yours, though.

 

Nan

[AngieW in Texas]

My oldest did dual credit instead of AP. My middle dd did one AP, but did the rest of her college credits as dual credit. She vastly preferred dual credit. The only reason she did the one AP was that we covered the material while she was in 10th grade and dual credit here doesn't start until 11th grade.

 

You really are putting all your eggs in one basket for AP. Everything hinges on that one test on that one day and if you have a bad day, you have to wait a full year to try again.

[Lori D.]

Agreeing with Creekland and Nan.

 

Some other points to consider:

 

Since your student will be *young* (10th grade), I strongly suggest starting with just ONE course at the university. Dual enrollment and the college classroom/independent working is a big adjustment, both for the student AND the family -- the college class now must be the priority in scheduling, time and homework.

 

Also, by raising the stakes and doing DE at the university, you also raise the stakes in DD needing a good grade in the class, because this will go on her permanent college transcript. (Another good reason for doing just one class per semester in the first year of trying dual enrollment -- allows your DD to focus all her energies on that one class to succeed.)

 

Do what you can to make sure you are signing up for a class with a *good* instructor for whatever DE course DD takes -- ask around with friends, other homeschoolers, etc. who have taken classes at the university; check out the student ratings/comments at Rate My Professors. It would be a nightmare to have a poor teacher, or one with an "attitude" while trying to succeed in your first outing with DE.

 

What college(s) is DD interested in attending after high school graduation? Be sure to check into the policies of those schools of not only how many credits of DE will transfer, but if there is a maximum to how many DE credits a student can earn before they are no longer considered a freshman, but instead are considered a transfer student. Some schools allow unlimited credits for freshmen; many limit it at 23 or 24 credits (6-8 classes). Some limit it to just 12 credits (3 or 4 classes) to still be considered a freshman.

 

So why care whether coming in as a freshman or a transfer student? The problem here is one of scholarships -- the bulk of scholarships, and certainly almost all of the 4-year full scholarships, are awarded to freshmen, NOT transfer students. There are scholarships for transfer students, but fewer than for freshmen, and typically transfer scholarships are partial scholarships. Also, there are often specific degree program scholarships for upperclassmen, but they tend to be partial scholarships, not as many full scholarships. So... if financing college is going to be tight and you really need those scholarships, you can see why sometimes people choose AP rather than dual enrollment, if AP will maintain freshman status, and will be accepted when DE isn't.

 

And yes, high SAT/ACT scores will definitely help for scholarships. Some prep and practice in taking the test would be helpful. Maybe even consider a prep course for all the tips and specialized help if you really want to nail a high score, or increase a previous test score into the range needed for the schools DD wants to apply to.

 

One last small point: be prepared for expensive books and fees on top of that $450 for tuition -- books for a single class tend to run between $100-300. And some classes have an additional fee (a science lab fee, for example). The sooner you know which specific class your student is taking, you can start looking for a used copy -- try your local Craig's List of students who are selling the textbooks from the previous semester, or online through Amazon used, or a college textbook resale website. Be sure you're buying the EDITION that will be required for your DD's class. Alas, textbook publishers only print a limited quantity of an edition, and so universities, having to have a minimum supply to cover all the students, go to buy more, and the booksellers are out, forcing the school to buy the NEW edition, which comes out now about every 2-3 years. So, sometimes you are stuck buying the new edition (your only hope is for a fast resale at the end of the semester).

 

Another surprise expense is that sometimes there is an online access key code that you have to purchase, that is only available through the university bookstore. It allows the student access to the online homework or test-taking component of the course; and it is expensive -- often $70-100.

 

 

DE was a great option here, and far less stressful than an AP test. :) But, it also took a big bite out of our daily homeschooling (commuting to the class, taking the class, lab time, homework/study time, etc.), and it locked us into the school's schedule (because you just can't miss classes and make them up -- the material moves too fast).

 

Sounds like you've got a great option in your local university. BEST of luck to you and DD! Warmly, Lori D.

[AngieW in Texas]

I did a B&M SAT prep class for both of my older girls and it was well worth the investment. My oldest dd's SAT score went up by 200 points and that's what put her in scholarship range. The school she goes to posts the average SAT score for the scholarships they offer. She wasn't even close to the lowest level scholarship ($4000/semester at that time, but $3000/semester now). But the score increase put her just above the average SAT score for the full tuition scholarship + a small stipend (was $1500/semester when oldest got it, but is $1000/semester now), which is what she got.

 

My middle dd took the same SAT prep class as my oldest, but she did it before taking the SAT for the first time, so I don't know if it increased her score or not. She got the same scholarship my oldest did. In the two years between my girls, the average SAT score for the scholarship they both got went up by 150 points.

[Lori D.]

I did a B&M SAT prep class for both of my older girls and it was well worth the investment. My oldest dd's SAT score went up by 200 points and that's what put her in scholarship range. The school she goes to posts the average SAT score for the scholarships they offer. She wasn't even close to the lowest level scholarship ($4000/semester at that time, but $3000/semester now). But the score increase put her just above the average SAT score for the full tuition scholarship + a small stipend (was $1500/semester when oldest got it, but is $1000/semester now), which is what she got.

 

My middle dd took the same SAT prep class as my oldest, but she did it before taking the SAT for the first time, so I don't know if it increased her score or not. She got the same scholarship my oldest did. In the two years between my girls, the average SAT score for the scholarship they both got went up by 150 points.

 

 

Congrats, Angie! :)

 

Yes, I've been reading that the $100-200 investment in a good prep course pays off in a minimum of 100-150 point increase in test scores, which often does mean the difference between no $$$ and some $$$, or as in your case, partial $$$ to full $$$ -- a thousands of $$$ payoff on a small investment! :)

[nancy in nj]

My daughter has just gone through the application/admittance process for UNC CH, and I have some insights to the process that might be helpful. I think there is a broader picture than whether UNC CH will accept the credits. UNC CH is used to seeing SAT II scores and AP scores/credits and these will help admissions evaluate your dd compared to other applicants--even though UNC CH will tell you that these things are not required from homeschoolers and might even tell you that not having them will not hurt you in the admissions process, based on our experience this year, I don't necessarily buy that.

 

We know of at least 6 or 7 homeschoolers from NC who applied to Chapel Hill this year. My dd and Nissi's ds (from the WTM board) had high SAT's (north of 2200, I would guess), multiple high SAT II scores (north of 700) and 4 or more AP scores of 4's/5's by the end of junior year with more AP's taken in senior year. Chapel Hill rolled out the red carpet for these kids--invitations to compete for merit aid at scholarship day, partial tuition merit scholarships, invitations to the Honors College, phone calls with successful alumni related to their fields of interest to "help" them make their decisions, invitation to apply for special opportunities (with a promise to get 1) such as research $, travel abroad $, early admission to the business school, research scholars program and others. Both my dd and Nissi's ds got the research scholars program. Two of the other homeschoolers who got in (but no special treatment) had either very high SAT's or top 25% SATs with a few AP's/college classes. 2 or 3 others that were waitlisted or rejected did not have top 25% SAT's but definitely middle 50%, no SAT II's or AP's but did have community college classes. Even with the high SAT scores, I don't think that UNC CH would have rolled out the red carpet without the SAT II scores and AP scores.

 

Having said that, I also firmly believe that UNC CH does do the extensive holistic review of every application just as they say they do. My dd's core (cr and math) SAT was below the 1500 that is typically required to be considered for merit aid and was just "average" for the Honors College due to a "relatively" low math score. The admissions essays count--a lot!! They told the kids at scholarship day that they read all of the admissions essays at least twice and that the Scholarship Day invite essays had been read by 3 admissions people and 2 professors. The Honors College is a whole of set of people reviewing the applications and reading the essays yet again . The thing is that UNC CH is very liberal--my daughter's common application essay was about the fact that her online classmates in her PA Homeschoolers AP classes defy the homeschool stereotype in that they have diverse ethnic and religious backgrounds and widespread political viewpoints...I'm not sure that the Bellhaven program would not actually hurt your dd's chances of admission to UNC CH both because it is overtly Christian (and therefore not diverse) and as it is probably outside the norm of what they are used to seeing with homeschoolers. I personally would want to find a couple of homeschoolers from this program that got admitted to UNC CH in the past before using it in lieu of AP or even community college classes.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Nancy

[LNC]

My daughter has just gone through the application/admittance process for UNC CH, and I have some insights to the process that might be helpful. I think there is a broader picture than whether UNC CH will accept the credits. UNC CH is used to seeing SAT II scores and AP scores/credits and these will help admissions evaluate your dd compared to other applicants--even though UNC CH will tell you that these things are not required from homeschoolers and might even tell you that not having them will not hurt you in the admissions process, based on our experience this year, I don't necessarily buy that.

 

We know of at least 6 or 7 homeschoolers from NC who applied to Chapel Hill this year. My dd and Nissi's ds (from the WTM board) had high SAT's (north of 2200, I would guess), multiple high SAT II scores (north of 700) and 4 or more AP scores of 4's/5's by the end of junior year with more AP's taken in senior year. Chapel Hill rolled out the red carpet for these kids--invitations to compete for merit aid at scholarship day, partial tuition merit scholarships, invitations to the Honors College, phone calls with successful alumni related to their fields of interest to "help" them make their decisions, invitation to apply for special opportunities (with a promise to get 1) such as research $, travel abroad $, early admission to the business school, research scholars program and others. Both my dd and Nissi's ds got the research scholars program. Two of the other homeschoolers who got in (but no special treatment) had either very high SAT's or top 25% SATs with a few AP's/college classes. 2 or 3 others that were waitlisted or rejected did not have top 25% SAT's but definitely middle 50%, no SAT II's or AP's but did have community college classes. Even with the high SAT scores, I don't think that UNC CH would have rolled out the red carpet without the SAT II scores and AP scores.

 

Having said that, I also firmly believe that UNC CH does do the extensive holistic review of every application just as they say they do. My dd's core (cr and math) SAT was below the 1500 that is typically required to be considered for merit aid and was just "average" for the Honors College due to a "relatively" low math score. The admissions essays count--a lot!! They told the kids at scholarship day that they read all of the admissions essays at least twice and that the Scholarship Day invite essays had been read by 3 admissions people and 2 professors. The Honors College is a whole of set of people reviewing the applications and reading the essays yet again . The thing is that UNC CH is very liberal--my daughter's common application essay was about the fact that her online classmates in her PA Homeschoolers AP classes defy the homeschool stereotype in that they have diverse ethnic and religious backgrounds and widespread political viewpoints...I'm not sure that the Bellhaven program would not actually hurt your dd's chances of admission to UNC CH both because it is overtly Christian (and therefore not diverse) and as it is probably outside the norm of what they are used to seeing with homeschoolers. I personally would want to find a couple of homeschoolers from this program that got admitted to UNC CH in the past before using it in lieu of AP or even community college classes.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Nancy

 

That gives me a lot to think about, but is disappointing too... I still don't know what they would think of very high sat, dual enrollment 4 year, high sat 2, and some Aps- bc it isn't one of your examples.

 

Posts like this fed my all AP in high school obsession, which was criticized on the boards as "rigid" thinking. She is very bright, very involved in many worthwhile things, but I don't want the next four years to be a pressure cooker.

[Gwen in VA]

We went with a blend of dual-enrollment (some at CC and some at 4-year), AP's, SAT2's, and high SAT.

 

The AP's were more rigorous than any dual-enrollment classes my kids have taken, but we wanted them to have some brick-and-mortar real "live" classes.

 

We wanted to showcase my kids' strengths in different ways, so that if that particular college wants "real-life" dual enrollment classes, they are on the transcript. If the college wants AP's, they are there. And if the college wants good SAT2's, they are there. We didn't want to put all of our eggs in any one basket.

 

Also, by picking and choosing we were able to select the more rigorous AP classes in subjects where we wanted the rigor, and the kids were able to take less time-consuming classes in the areas where, in light of their particular goals, they didn't need as much rigor.

 

And ultimately high school education is about giving our kids the best education for their needs, plans, and desires. We didn't stress too much about what would get credit and what wouldn't. Colleges differ so much that unless you are quite sure that your child is going to one particular school, you really can't count on any one path resulting in optimal college credits, so you do what's best for your kid.

[LNC]

My husband suggest we rethink Belhaven (it is an all encompassing humanities for 11th/12th, but what if admissions doesn't like it or it doesn't transfer?) and try to balance Cedarville dual enrollment classes with AP.

[regentrude]

We have chosen dual enrollment at a 4 year university for the following reasons:

 

DD thrives in a classroom setting with a live teacher and classmates.

It gave her the experience of "real" college and the opportunity to develop the time management and study skill she will need.

She stresses over tests and much prefers to earn her credit through continuous quality work over the course of a semester than through one single shot in an AP exam.

She had the opportunity take advantage of the learning assistance offered and ended up working as a tutor for college classes in the same learning center she attended as a student.

Her professors are a potential source of reference letters. One prof had her for one semester in class, but also supervised the tutoring program and the tutor training sessions and knows her pretty well. From the other professor she took three semesters of classes and will take a fourth in the fall.

 

ETA: Whether this was the "correct" decision from an admissions point of view, I do not know yet. But I know that it was the right decision for the sake of our DD's well being: she is currently studying for her last round of SAT IIs, and her stress level is such that I would not want to subject her to taking AP exams with even higher stakes.

[FloridaLisa]

I haven't heard this option on the boards much. Will the credits transfer easily? It is less expensive than AP, 1 semester, and no high stakes test. Seems like a lot of positives.

 

I agree with these advantages and I'll add a couple of others:

• IRL grades will factor into a graduate-school GPA. While APs will provide the credit, the grade doesn't transfer.
  
• 
  
• IRL classes. I don't think this is the case with the programs you are looking at, but my boys especially reached a point where they needed the stimulation from a live class, professor interaction, classroom discussion. My rising junior is just about at that point!
  
• We can go on vacation as soon as my college kids get done with finals! :thumbup: Seriously, the logistics of having all of the olders finish around the same time is so much better, than waiting around until mid-may when APs are over, to take our vacation. We get it done early so the kids are free to work, volunteer, go on summer programs the rest of the summer. LOl, sometimes very practical reasons prevail for us!
  

My dc have dual-enrolled at two different 4-year universities (also the CC). Typically, their senior year is comprised of mostly university classes. CC classes have been useful to check a box (a current foreign language after several years of online Latin for example; and some wanted to do a fun class like pottery or pilates.) We felt university level classes would not only give them the solid classes they needed in their majors (chem sequence for example) but would also better prepare them for college after graduation. That was true; so far their transition to college was seamless academically. But all 3 of my older dc have gone from our local state uni to another state uni.

 

We were disappointed with one of my oldest's university dual enrollment classes, so I agree with LoriD to ruthlessly ask for references and check ratemyprofessorcom. His freshman writing class was just abysmal and I was so underimpressed at the material the professor required and the utter lack of writing instruction. In fact, that experience caused us to choose AP Eng Lang and Comp for the next two.

 

The thing is that UNC CH is very liberal--my daughter's common application essay was about the fact that her online classmates in her PA Homeschoolers AP classes defy the homeschool stereotype in that they have diverse ethnic and religious backgrounds and widespread political viewpoints...I'm not sure that the Bellhaven program would not actually hurt your dd's chances of admission to UNC CH both because it is overtly Christian (and therefore not diverse) and as it is probably outside the norm of what they are used to seeing with homeschoolers. I personally would want to find a couple of homeschoolers from this program that got admitted to UNC CH in the past before using it in lieu of AP or even community college classes.

 

Nancy, thank you for sharing your dd's experience so transparently. That is so helpful to see some of the particulars underlying admissions' decisions. I don't want to sidetrack this thread at all, but I hope that choosing classes from a Christian university would NOT put a student, with the same grades, SAT I and II scores, extracurriculars, in a worse position than a similar student with classes from a secular college. Would that not make the student diverse from a pool of generally liberal students? So that alone wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if I knew that the Cedarville or Belhaven classes were rich academically and provided the experience that I wanted for my dc. But I do think it might help to call admissions and see what their thoughts are on dual-enrolling with a private college.

 

The AP's were more rigorous than any dual-enrollment classes my kids have taken, but we wanted them to have some brick-and-mortar real "live" classes.

 

I think this was generally true for my dc as well. It was definitely true of the freshman comp classes, but also for several of the science classes. I remember reading several threads on College Board's teacher board remarking how much deeper and more difficult the AP US Govt class was than the teachers' own intro U.S. government class at college. This can be good or overwhelming. I think dual-enrollment helped to balance some of the intensity of APs.

 

We have chosen dual enrollment at a 4 year university for the following reasons:

 

DD thrives in a classroom setting with a live teacher and classmates.

It gave her the experience of "real" college and the opportunity to develop the time management and study skill she will need.

She stresses over tests and much prefers to earn her credit through continuous quality work over the course of a semester than through one single shot in an AP exam.

She had the opportunity take advantage of the learning assistance offered and ended up working as a tutor for college classes in the same learning center she attended as a student.

Her professors are a potential source of reference letters. One prof had her for one semester in class, but also supervised the tutoring program and the tutor training sessions and knows her pretty well. From the other professor she took three semesters of classes and will take a fourth in the fall.

 

ETA: Whether this was the "correct" decision from an admissions point of view, I do not know yet. But I know that it was the right decision for the sake of our DD's well being: she is currently studying for her last round of SAT IIs, and her stress level is such that I would not want to subject her to taking AP exams with even higher stakes.

 

We experienced many of your same advantages. And I just LIKE your philosophy. Home schooling through high school is (for us) not just about hoop jumping but providing the best experience for them in high school while keeping an eyeball on making our dc admissions ready.

 

My oldest did dual credit instead of AP. My middle dd did one AP, but did the rest of her college credits as dual credit. She vastly preferred dual credit. The only reason she did the one AP was that we covered the material while she was in 10th grade and dual credit here doesn't start until 11th grade.

 

Ah yes, another reason to do APs -- you can start knocking them out earlier than we would be allowed or I'd want to have my dc dually-enrolled.

 

That gives me a lot to think about, but is disappointing too... I still don't know what they would think of very high sat, dual enrollment 4 year, high sat 2, and some Aps- bc it isn't one of your examples.

 

Posts like this fed my all AP in high school obsession, which was criticized on the boards as "rigid" thinking. She is very bright, very involved in many worthwhile things, but I don't want the next four years to be a pressure cooker.

 

It's such a dance isn't it? :huh: There is no one right path. This is where it's so important to actively use your home education philosophy, your dd's goals and yours as parents, to guide the high school years. Having graduated 2 (and a 3rd this year), I am even more determined to include classes and experiences that my dc will likely not have time or opportunity to get after high school, but that are hugely important to our goals. While we certainly have our eye on admissions criteria, the high school years are also shaped by my underlying philosophy and the reasons we began homeschooling in the first place.

 

Lisa

[Candid]

First, let's sort a few things out. There is no doubt UNCCH is liberal, but if you are in state they are used to accepting students from Christian schools, so type of school will not be a problem at least in terms of Christian vs. nonChristian. NC home schoolers are accepted to UNCCH with BJ curriculum and with courses from Liberty. (I won't even go into the new administration in Raleigh which has made it abundantly clear that "fluff" like "women's studies" are acceptable. I would assume that UNCCH would not want to offend on other levels or discriminate on religion which as a state school they are legally barred from.)

 

If you are from outside of state what you need to be worried about is what sort of things are your competition to get in submitting APs and outside classes AND how do your classes stack up.

 

Next, I've actually transferred credits within the UNC system which is supposed to be relatively open handed with other UNC schools. What I found to be the biggest problem is not getting credit for a class as much as not getting a specific credit.

 

You would be wise to look at course descriptions and stick with introductory courses over course that may have no similar substitute. It's not very helpful to just get hours, you need to knock off some classes your child will otherwise have to take. Introduction to Psychology strikes me as a good choice.

 

Generally from what I hear, SAT or ACT score is going to be your crucial lynch pin if you are in state.

[LNC]

This discussion has been so helpful. It is hard bc I REALLY like the Belhaven High Scholars program, and my daughter thinks it is ideal for her... And she really doesn't like the idea of several AP tests in the spring. Lots of decisions. I guess the biggest decision is whether replace Belhaven High Scholars in 11th/12th with AP humanities or not. I would still balance it out with a few online Cedarville dual enrollment classes either way. SAT2 are a given either way, we know they all want them.

 

Yes, we are in state and it maybe that helps admission wise. Uncch is the best affordable public school with her major. For our son down the road, it is NC State.