"The Iliad" and "The Odyssey" in the 7th Grade?

[TheAutumnOak]

Has anyone done (or is planning to do) "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey" in the 7th grade?...Memoria Press has it in their new 7th grade package, and I am wondering if that is a good time, or just too early...I am thinking through my plans for the boys, and am struggling with what to study when...I would think that "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey" would be great for freshmen year, but wonder if anyone has any pros or cons to studying them before high school?...I am trying to make a plan from the top down, but it is difficult because there are so many things I would like to cover, and not enough time to cover them all...Coming up with a general scope and sequence is proving to be more difficult than I thought!

 

I posted this on the logic stage board as well, but decided to post here, so you can ignore it over there if you want :-)

[swimmermom3]

We did the Ancients in 6th grade and used Rosemary Sutcliff's retellings for the Iliad and the Odyssey. The Trojan War by Olivia Coolidge gives you many of the side myths that fill in the gaps and is a good preface. I might do the actual books with a late eighth grader, but I definitely want to read them with a student who can not only enjoy them for the great stories, but who has enough literary studies behind them to appreciate the skill with which they are crafted and who can respond intelligently to Elizabeth Vandiver's lectures for The Teaching Company. I also want the student to be in a place where they understand the influence the works have on the Western Cannon and to have actually read some of those works.

[swimmermom3]

Also, you might want to read a review of Samuel Butler's versions of The Iliad and The Odyssey, which is what Memoria Press uses, presumably because they are in the public domain.

[Jayne J]

I agree with Swimmermom. To read the actual Illiad and Odyssey with youngers might cause you to miss out on too much. Retellings would be fine, but only to familiarize the student with the story lines.

Also, as well as language and craft, there are a lot of big questions, especially in the Illiad (OK, in the Odyssey too, but I really love the Illiad :) ) that a high school student might really get more out of--issues of authority, duty, family/role, which it seems rhetoric level kids are primed for. A younger student may not get as much from them, yet walk away thinking they have "done" them. Of course, my oldest is only 9, and some kids might be ready for it sooner than others, so YMMV. I plan to wait until high school.

[amsunshine]

We are doing the MP Lit Guide for Coolidge's Trojan War next year, which MP earmarks for grades 6-8. We did Sutcliffe's Black Ships Before Troy and the Osborne's Odyssey series when my dds were in grades 1 and 2. The Iliad and Odyssey Guides are for Grades 7 and up -- so can be used in high school, which is when we intend to use them (our 3rd go 'round with ancients).

[Ariston]

I personally would not do the Odyssey or Iliad with such a young child, especially the Iliad. Not that they wouldn't get something out of it, but there are so many other great books for that age that it seems more appropriate to read a book they'll get more out of at that age, and then save these books for when they're older. But I guess it depends on the child and on the overall scope of the year.

 

I would wait until 9th grade for a first reading of the Odyssey, and even later for the Iliad.

[TheAutumnOak]

I agree with you all and wonder why Memoria Press schedules it so early...

[Spy Car]

I read them both in 7th Grade in a Public Jr High School.

 

Bill

[Ariston]

I read them both in 7th Grade in a Public Jr High School.

 

Bill

 

 

The original unabridged texts? That seams remarkable, and like it would take a large chunk of the year. We read an abridged Odyssey in 9th, and that was Honors English. I didn't read them both in their entirety until freshman year of college.

[Mom0012]

My 6th and 8 th graders are supposed to take a class covering The Illiad, The Odyssey and The Aeneid next year (prose translations). I have many reservations about it and am still considering pulling them. My feeling is that there are so many other books I would prefer to read with them at this age. And will they really benefit from reading them now? They are familiar with the story lines, but still . . .

[Mom0012]

I don't know.... My oldest has lived and breathed those stories since 5th. He had a little bit of a hard time when he first began reading West's translation of The Aeneid, but he was able to answer and discuss the majority of the questions in the study guide. It was just a more difficult reading level than what he was accustomed to. The Medusa Mythology Exam is geared for grades 6-12 and its theme this year was The Trojan War and required primary source material.

 

I suppose it would be more difficult if you haven't already familiarized yourself with the stories.

 

 

We are familiar with the stories and my kids can definitely read them, but Swimmermom's and urpedonmom's comments really resonate with me. Oh, I wish I had someone else that could make these decisions for me.

[swimmermom3]

We are familiar with the stories and my kids can definitely read them, but Swimmermom's and urpedonmom's comments really resonate with me. Oh, I wish I had someone else that could make these decisions for me.

 

If you have a chance and it's been a while since you have read either of them or if you have never read them, go ahead and do so, but read one of the better modern translations like Lattimore or Fagles. Then compare it to the translation that MP uses. Also, watch for Teaching Company sales and pick up Elizabeth Vandiver's lectures on both works. You can usually get the Iliad or the Odyssey lectures for around $20 each and they will really add to your understanding. Once you have read one of the books and listened to a lecture or two, you'll be in a better position to decide which route you want to take.

[Mom0012]

 

 

If you have a chance and it's been a while since you have read either of them or if you have never read them, go ahead and do so, but read one of the better modern translations like Lattimore or Fagles. Then compare it to the translation that MP uses. Also, watch for Teaching Company sales and pick up Elizabeth Vandiver's lectures on both works. You can usually get the Iliad or the Odyssey lectures for around $20 each and they will really add to your understanding. Once you have read one of the books and listened to a lecture or two, you'll be in a better position to decide which route you want to take.

 

Thanks, Lisa, for the advice. The class we signed up for will be using the Robert Fitzgerald version and there will be a lot of discussion about the books. I have been told the teacher really prepares the students well. My problem is that I don't want to let go of SL, and we just read the Sutcliffe books this year. That was enough for me at this point, and it's unclear to me whether this is really going to benefit my kids. My dd is determined to take the class, though, and my son is interested as well, so it looks like we will be taking the plunge. I would never consider it at this point if we didn't have this opportunity with this class.

[Spy Car]

 

 

The original unabridged texts? That seams remarkable, and like it would take a large chunk of the year. We read an abridged Odyssey in 9th, and that was Honors English. I didn't read them both in their entirety until freshman year of college.

 

 

Yes. Not only was it remarkable to read them in their entirety, we also had to "translate" large portions of the Oddesey from the poetic (translated) form into our own "prose" version.

 

I had a pretty unusual English teacher, Mr O'hara, who very high expectations of his students, along with a few unconventional ideas for students. We read from "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee," and Mr O'hara suggested that if on some weekend we stayed awake as long as we we able, and did a ghost-dance through the night, and into the dawn, that we might have a "vision quest."

 

I liked him.

 

Bill