Kind of a silly question about math and transcripts

[happypamama]

Could someone give me an update on what's expected, in general, on a high school transcript when applying for college? I do have a few years, but I want to make sure we're on the right track.

 

DD is in fifth grade this year, in Saxon 7/6, and doing well with it. I'm really satisfied (and so is she) with how the Saxon approach works *for her* so I'm inclined to stay with it. We're at about Lesson 63, and there's been very little new information thus far. Since she's doing well, I think she's ready for Algebra 1/2 next year, sixth grade. That would put her in Algebra 1 in seventh grade and either Algebra 2 or geometry in eighth. That doesn't seem out of line; I completed both Algebra 1 and 2 in eighth grade myself, and it wasn't an issue that neither of those were on my official high school transcript back in the 90s.

 

How about these days, though? I'm thinking Algebra 2 in eighth, Geometry in 9th, Trig/PreCalc in 10th, and then Calculus in 11th, very possibly at a local college or something. Then, depending on what she needs for college, a second course in Calculus in 12th grade, or some other math -- consumer math, statistics, whatever. Or if she does two college courses in math in 11th grade, no math in 12th, especially if she wants to focus on a different subject more. This child is good in math, but it's not her favorite, so I could see taking a year off from math to allow more time for languages or history, both of which interest her more. My gut feeling is that she's not going to need a ton of advanced math, but I still want her to have 4 math courses in high school -- is that still the right goal for college planning? (I'm very math-comfortable myself, so I'm very confident that, along with the book, I could assist her with calculus as needed.)

 

The other slight issue is that the brother three years younger than DD speaks math, and I'm expecting that he's going to do very well in it. Having been in the position of a younger sib being really extra good in math and being close to "catching up" to me, I absolutely do not want to do that to DD, so slowing her down just for the sake of doing so seems like a not-great plan. (And I really do not think she's being pushed beyond what she's capable of doing; I think she's in the right level for her.)

 

Thoughts?

[Candid]

I know nothing about Saxon, but generally students take Algebra I then Geometry then Algebra II. Colleges will mostly be used to seeing that and they will see some students with Algebra II in ninth grade so you are safe on all that. For the last year, don't do consumer math, but do Stat or number theory or more Calculus.

[happypamama]

I know nothing about Saxon, but generally students take Algebra I then Geometry then Algebra II. Colleges will mostly be used to seeing that and they will see some students with Algebra II in ninth grade so you are safe on all that. For the last year, don't do consumer math, but do Stat or number theory or more Calculus.

 

 

Thank you. I think my question is, which is it more okay NOT to have on the high school transcript -- Algebra II or Geometry? I know the usual sequence when I was in school was Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2, but my program did it Alg. 1, Alg. 2, Geometry, and it worked out fine. In my case, Alg. 2 wasn't on my high school transcript since I did it in eighth grade, but I wasn't sure what was the better option nowadays. I guess if Alg. 2 wasn't on the transcript but Trig was, a college would assume the student had had Alg. 2, but if Geometry wasn't on it, the school might assume the student had hadn't a specific Geometry course.

 

Yeah, I don't know what we'll do for DD after Calc. I can't possibly imagine that her career plans would need a third calculus course, but who knows? I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

[regentrude]

I think my question is, which is it more okay NOT to have on the high school transcript -- Algebra II or Geometry? I know the usual sequence when I was in school was Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2, but my program did it Alg. 1, Alg. 2, Geometry, and it worked out fine. In my case, Alg. 2 wasn't on my high school transcript since I did it in eighth grade, but I wasn't sure what was the better option nowadays. I guess if Alg. 2 wasn't on the transcript but Trig was, a college would assume the student had had Alg. 2, but if Geometry wasn't on it, the school might assume the student had hadn't a specific Geometry course.

 

 

I would solve the problem by simply listing ALL the math credits on the transcript, with a note which ones were taken before 9th grade.

 

Yeah, I don't know what we'll do for DD after Calc. I can't possibly imagine that her career plans would need a third calculus course, but who knows? I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

 

There is plenty of math. one option would be to slow down in the typical sequence and take a detour to some area of math not usually included in high school ,such as number theory. Statistics is a useful course which can be taken before or after calculus. Multivariable calculus is a logical course after singe variable calc. But you are right, don't worry just yet. It is also possible that your student's math progress may slow down when the math gets harder. Or you might choose to use a harder,m more challenging math program.

My son did algebra 1 in 6th grade and then took a semester to study probability theory. For a strong math student, check out Art of Problem Solving.

[Candid]

Thank you. I think my question is, which is it more okay NOT to have on the high school transcript -- Algebra II or Geometry? I know the usual sequence when I was in school was Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2, but my program did it Alg. 1, Alg. 2, Geometry, and it worked out fine. In my case, Alg. 2 wasn't on my high school transcript since I did it in eighth grade, but I wasn't sure what was the better option nowadays. I guess if Alg. 2 wasn't on the transcript but Trig was, a college would assume the student had had Alg. 2, but if Geometry wasn't on it, the school might assume the student had hadn't a specific Geometry course.

 

Yeah, I don't know what we'll do for DD after Calc. I can't possibly imagine that her career plans would need a third calculus course, but who knows? I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

 

I think most college admissions officers can figure out she must have had geometry prior to high school and I wouldn't get too wrapped up in it.

[Lori D.]

No silly questions! It's GOOD to be thinking ahead! :) Below are my thoughts, FWIW! ;)

 

 

... I think she's ready for Algebra 1/2 next year, sixth grade. That would put her in Algebra 1 in seventh grade and either Algebra 2 or geometry in eighth... Thoughts?

 

 

1. Many late elementary/early middle school students who have been advanced in math "hit a wall" when it comes to Algebra I and II, as both are heavily-based on abstract thinking, which, in the majority of students does not develop until along about age 13-14. If this does not happen, great! Just keep going if you want, OR, view it as an bonus time for exploring other math topics of interest or trying out a different math to help stretch the student's math thinking. However, if DC does "hit the wall", you have choices:

 

a. Some families set aside the usual math progression for a year and focus on other math topics (percents, fractions, decimals; etc.); or work on word problems (Art of Problem Solving; Life of Fred); or do some other a pre-algebra program from a different perspective. By that time the abstract portions of the student's brain are usually starting to mature, making it much easier for them to do the math.

 

b. Slow down your speed. Take 18 months or 2 full years to go through the Algebra I. This allows the student to continue with new math topics, but at a slower pace so they can learn without stress or frustration while waiting for the abstract thinking portions of the brain to mature in their own time.

 

c. Critical to do what is best for each individual student and NOT worry about what younger siblings are doing/not doing. If a younger sibling does actually "catch up" (unlikely to catch up 3 years of math), then use very different math programs, or outsource older one to prevent hurt feelings or panic in the older student.

 

 

That would put her in Algebra 1 in seventh grade and either Algebra 2 or geometry in eighth

 

... I'm thinking Algebra 2 in eighth, Geometry in 9th, Trig/PreCalc in 10th, and then Calculus in 11th...

 

 

2. Many families prefer to do the Geometry first and the Algebra II later, putting it closer to the time at which the student takes the SAT and/or ACT test (which has far more Algebra I and Algebra II questions and concepts and very few Geometry questions). If that is not desirable sequence for your student, then be sure to spend a lot of time reviewing and practicing Alg. I and II concepts in the months prior to taking the SAT and/or ACT tests so the student is not "rusty" at the math. It is crucial these days to score well on these tests for at least two reasons:

 

a. admission to the college of your choice

b. and to earn scholarship $$, which is much more limited in the current economy

 

 

Could someone give me an update on what's expected, in general, on a high school transcript when applying for college?

 

 

3. Most colleges have basic number and type of credits required for admission as a freshman. More and more colleges are requiring 4 credits of math, and specifically are requiring: Alg. I, Geom., Alg. II, and a higher math that required Alg. II as a prerequisite. (Note: many colleges/universities also want to see only courses that were actually completed in the last 4 years of high school -- and so advanced credits completed in 7th or 8th grades are not accepted.)

 

If a student does do Alg. I -- and Geom. -- in middle school, colleges will expect that this is an advanced student and will expect to see Alg. 2, plus at least 2 more advanced math classes (above Alg. 2) on the transcript, unless the student is applying to a Liberal Arts / Fine Arts school. Really, colleges want to see students continue to progress at whatever their level is -- so if your student has been advanced in math, they want to see the student continue throughout all of high school with higher and higher levels of math.

 

 

... younger sib being really extra good in math and being close to "catching up"... I absolutely do not want to do that to DD, so slowing her down just for the sake of doing so seems like a not-great plan...

 

 

4. I find it pretty unlikely that younger sibling 3 years behind will close the gap that drastically on an older sibling who is doing well and is obviously advanced in math. And by the time students are in high school, esp, late high school, siblings are doing such radically different studies and working towards such different goals, the idea of doing the same math at the same time as a sibling is really unimportant to most students... Just my opinion, but I would NOT be basing decisions that will take effect 3-4 years down the line on this very remote possibility.

 

 

 

Just a few things to consider as you think ahead. BEST of luck, whatever you decide! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[creekland]

I've had two who did Alg 1 in 7th and neither had problems getting into colleges.

 

Oldest did Alg 2 in 8th (ps), then Geometry, then Pre-Calc, then we sort of took a year off and did Consumer Math/SAT review (two different half credits), then did Calc. He scored very well (top 3%) on college entrance tests and could have tested out of Calc had I had him take the AP test, but I didn't. His college math classes (business related, not STEM) have been super easy for him.

 

Middle did Geometry in 8th, Alg 2 in 9th, Pre-Calc in 10th, Stats (w/AP) in 11th and Calc in 12th. He had no problems getting accepted either and, so far (just a freshman) has had no problems in his college Calc class getting an easy A.

 

Kids in our public school often have Alg 1 (and just a few years ago, Geometry or Alg 2) in middle school and never have had problems getting into colleges.

 

IMO, for the standardized tests (ACT/SAT/PSAT) it's more important to have Geometry closer to those tests and kids who take it early often have forgotten a bit of it and get their mistakes there. Algebra is reviewed often in Pre-Calc and Calc, so doesn't pose such a problem. Using a good review book can be of assistance with that.

 

On our transcripts we had a small area where we listed high school level classes taken prior to high school. No college mine applied to accepted any credits prior to 9th grade. Our public school doesn't allow any credits from middle school either. If taking math early, be prepared to get your credits with other classes in high school. There are enough math options out there that this isn't a problem. ;)

[happypamama]

I would solve the problem by simply listing ALL the math credits on the transcript, with a note which ones were taken before 9th grade.

There is plenty of math. one option would be to slow down in the typical sequence and take a detour to some area of math not usually included in high school ,such as number theory. Statistics is a useful course which can be taken before or after calculus. Multivariable calculus is a logical course after singe variable calc. But you are right, don't worry just yet. It is also possible that your student's math progress may slow down when the math gets harder. Or you might choose to use a harder,m more challenging math program.

My son did algebra 1 in 6th grade and then took a semester to study probability theory. For a strong math student, check out Art of Problem Solving.

 

Probability theory -- she'd probably love that! I'll look at AoPS too -- thanks!

 

No silly questions! It's GOOD to be thinking ahead! :) Below are my thoughts, FWIW! ;)

1. Many late elementary/early middle school students who have been advanced in math "hit a wall" when it comes to Algebra I and II, as both are heavily-based on abstract thinking, which, in the majority of students does not develop until along about age 13-14. If this does not happen, great! Just keep going if you want, OR, view it as an bonus time for exploring other math topics of interest or trying out a different math to help stretch the student's math thinking. However, if DC does "hit the wall", you have choices:

a. Some families set aside the usual math progression for a year and focus on other math topics (percents, fractions, decimals; etc.); or work on word problems (Art of Problem Solving; Life of Fred); or do some other a pre-algebra program from a different perspective. By that time the abstract portions of the student's brain are usually starting to mature, making it much easier for them to do the math.

Okay, that makes sense. I think word problems would be good for her. I got her a couple of LoF books this summer, thinking they'd be fun. She hated them. She doesn't like silly at all. Fred is too goofy for her. (Otoh, part of the reason she likes Saxon is because she likes subtle humor, and Saxon is full of stuff like, "Johnny had 50 appleseeds" and "Peter, Edmund, Susan, and Lucy went to the store." *That* appeals to her mightily.)

 

b. Slow down your speed. Take 18 months or 2 full years to go through the Algebra I. This allows the student to continue with new math topics, but at a slower pace so they can learn without stress or frustration while waiting for the abstract thinking portions of the brain to mature in their own time.

What would this look like in practicality? We do math four days a week and all year round, except for random breaks, and a several-week chunk in May-June. Maybe do Alg. 1 only three days a week and use the fourth for other math-related stuff, like logic, or word problems? Actually, I kind of like that idea a lot.

 

c. Critical to do what is best for each individual student and NOT worry about what younger siblings are doing/not doing. If a younger sibling does actually "catch up" (unlikely to catch up 3 years of math), then use very different math programs, or outsource older one to prevent hurt feelings or panic in the older student.

We do currently use very different programs; younger brother uses and likes Singapore. I do think it's unlikely that he'll catch up three full years, but I was very much in the position of feeling like (and I found out later that it was an accurate feeling) my parents held my younger brother back so that he wouldn't catch up to me, and I really, really want to avoid DD feeling anything close to that.

 

2. Many families prefer to do the Geometry first and the Algebra II later, putting it closer to the time at which the student takes the SAT and/or ACT test (which has far more Algebra I and Algebra II questions and concepts and very few Geometry questions).

Another great point -- thanks! That's the kind of thing I was looking for, as it's been years since I took the SAT.

Really, colleges want to see students continue to progress at whatever their level is -- so if your student has been advanced in math, they want to see the student continue throughout all of high school with higher and higher levels of math.

 

Okay, that makes good sense, and it's a very good case for not doing Alg. 2/Geometry in 8th. Even if she's capable, I just don't see her wanting to do a lot of advanced math. I'm thinking I really like the idea of stretching out Alg. 1 (and even Alg. 1/2, starting next year), doing those two in three years (with some other stuff thrown in), and doing Geometry and Alg. 2 in 9th and 10th grade (in some order), Trig in 11th, and a year (or two courses at a local college) of Calculus in 12th.

 

Thank you for your thoughts!

 

I've had two who did Alg 1 in 7th and neither had problems getting into colleges.

Oldest did Alg 2 in 8th (ps), then Geometry, then Pre-Calc, then we sort of took a year off and did Consumer Math/SAT review (two different half credits), then did Calc. He scored very well (top 3%) on college entrance tests and could have tested out of Calc had I had him take the AP test, but I didn't. His college math classes (business related, not STEM) have been super easy for him.

Okay, that's good to hear too. I don't know if this child will do well on the AP tests or not. I don't test especially well -- AP tests were too high pressure for me. I hope dual enrollment will be an option still -- the thread about it doesn't sound encouraging.

 

Kids in our public school often have Alg 1 (and just a few years ago, Geometry or Alg 2) in middle school and never have had problems getting into colleges.

Also good to know. I should ask my neighbor sometime what math her son took, because I know he got into a good college.

 

On our transcripts we had a small area where we listed high school level classes taken prior to high school. No college mine applied to accepted any credits prior to 9th grade. Our public school doesn't allow any credits from middle school either. If taking math early, be prepared to get your credits with other classes in high school. There are enough math options out there that this isn't a problem. ;)

Okay, that's good to know, that we could just include the middle school classes on the transcript, even if they didn't count for official credit. But I'm really liking the idea of slowing her down a bit by focusing on word problems and other things. I think that even if she's capable of a lot of higher math, there could be the issue of time -- I want her to have plenty of time in high school for history and languages, since those do seem to be her strong suits.

 

Thank you, everyone!

[Lori D.]

re: slowing the math down...

What would this look like in practicality? We do math four days a week and all year round, except for random breaks, and a several-week chunk in May-June. Maybe do Alg. 1 only three days a week and use the fourth for other math-related stuff, like logic, or word problems? Actually, I kind of like that idea a lot.

 

 

 

Yes, that's one way to slow it down -- use a supplement math in place of the "spine" math 1-2 days a week.

 

Another way to slow down is to do 1/2 the lesson one day, and the other 1/2 the next day. (Or 2/3 of lesson 1 one day, and remaining 1/3 of lesson 1, plus 1/3 of the lesson 2 on the next day, and the remaining 2/3 of lesson 2 on the third day. Repeat.) So the math each day takes less time (say, 20-30 minutes rather than 40-60 minutes), but overall it takes more months to complete that level of math.

 

 

Since Life of Fred turned out to be an option, check out Art of Problem Solving. Another possibility is Singapore Primary. We used levels 4A/B, 5A/B and 6A/B along with our grade 5/6 math and pre-algebra programs as a supplement of seeing math topics from another point of view and to encourage math thinking/problem solving.

 

 

BEST of luck in your math journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Kareni]

Another book to consider using if you want to add more breadth to your daughter's math progression is Harold Jacobs'

Mathematics: A Human Endeavor.

 

She could use this on Fridays over several years or work through it during the course of an entire school year.

 

Regards,

Kareni