I need advice about the PreCalc situation. . . . .

[1bassoon]

Can anyone offer me insight or at least help me think this through?

 

My ds16 is - or I thought he was - pretty good at math. He did Alg 1 Chalkdust, then for various reasons we switched to MUS for Geometry and Alg 2. He pulled solid As in those.

 

I decided he needed something more rigorous, and went with Potter's School PreCalc. He tested into the program, barely. Potter's School switched teachers over the summer: the original man my son tested with said that my ds tested well for someone with MUS background, but made careless mistakes. He said he'd help him work through and get better about the careless mistakes.

 

New teacher at Potter's School, different text. (Using Precalculus; Graphical, Numeric, Algebraic by Demana et al). She wasn't concerned about his placement, although she never saw his placement test.

 

He started out ok, high 80s for test scores, but the last two chapters he's only made 78s on his tests. He takes them on the whiteboard, and makes the DUMBEST mistakes. Like, not recognizing the hypotenuse kind of mistakes. Sigh.

 

I'm just so frustrated. I can't sit around and hold his hand for this course - I don't have time. His teacher is willing to have outside tutoring with him, which he's taken advantage of. One strategy he and I talked about is doing the paper version of the test - he says he gets "computer brain" when staring at the screen. And the tests take him at least 2 hours, which seems excessive to me.

 

What do we do? Do I really have to sit with him and do PreCalc for 1.5 hours every day? Hours that I DON'T have? With math I barely understand? And he wants to go into materials engineering - I don't know HOW that is going to happen. Did I place him math that was too hard? Do we drop and make a correction mid-year? What about next year? How is he ever going to do Calculus?

 

Ugh. I just need to vent. Or bang my head against a wall. Or eat more chocolate.

[AngieW in Texas]

I'm using MUS with my youngest, but only because she needs a less rigorous math program. The problem that your ds is encountering is probably due to not having a sufficient background. Kids who are really good at math can jump from MUS to more rigorous programs without a problem. Kids who are just okay at math are more likely to have problems when switching to a more rigorous program for the next level and will probably do better to repeat the last level they did in MUS in the more rigorous program before moving on.

 

I think he'd probably do a lot better to switch to something like Kinetic Books Algebra II (which is rigorous, but computer-based, so he can do it independently) and then move on to Precalculus.

 

If he wants to stick with Precalculus, then somebody is going to have to put in the time with him to cover what he missed by going from MUS Algebra II (which doesn't go much farther than other programs do for Algebra I) to a more rigorous program for Precalculus.

[1bassoon]

I'm using MUS with my youngest, but only because she needs a less rigorous math program. The problem that your ds is encountering is probably due to not having a sufficient background. Kids who are really good at math can jump from MUS to more rigorous programs without a problem. Kids who are just okay at math are more likely to have problems when switching to a more rigorous program for the next level and will probably do better to repeat the last level they did in MUS in the more rigorous program before moving on.

 

I think he'd probably do a lot better to switch to something like Kinetic Books Algebra II (which is rigorous, but computer-based, so he can do it independently) and then move on to Precalculus.

 

If he wants to stick with Precalculus, then somebody is going to have to put in the time with him to cover what he missed by going from MUS Algebra II (which doesn't go much farther than other programs do for Algebra I) to a more rigorous program for Precalculus.

 

 

Sigh. I know you're right. I'm just KICKING myself that I did this to him.

 

We'll see how the next test goes, and how his practice test for Ch. 1-3 ends up. If he moves "back" in math for 2nd semester, how will that look to colleges? Actually, his ACT math score wasn't bad at all for a first try; I just honestly feel that I did him a disservice by being so wishy-washy on his math, and putting him in MUS b/c it was easier for me, not necessarily best for him.

[amy58103]

Does he run out of time when taking the tests? Is he struggling with the homework? Is he saying that he doesn't understand the material?

 

Unless your answers to these questions are Yes, it doesn't really sound like a comprehension problem. Instead, it sounds like he is suffering from stupid-mistakes-syndrome. (OK, I made that up, but you know what I mean)

 

Instead of jumping curriculums, maybe work on his test taking skills? Is he taking the time to write out each step to the solution? Does he go back and double check his work after he's answered all the questions? Have you tried taking the "paper" test first? That seams like a great idea to me.

[plansrme]

If it's any comfort, my daughter says that pre-calculus was harder than calculus, but she has been on her own for math forever, so I have no idea whether that would be true of most people or not.

 

If his background is really not up to snuff, have you considered pulling him from pre-calculus, re-doing Algebra II over this next semester (I would use ChalkDust, but that's just because my daughter used CD from pre-Algebra through Calc I and has done extremely well with it), and then working through pre-calc next year? Is he a junior this year, and if so, is not having Calc I by graduation fatal for his intended major? If so, could he double up on math from here on out, and do (or finish) pre-calc over the summer and first semester of next year, and then do calc second semester next year? My daughter's STEM magnet high school block schedules so that they do an entire year's worth of material each semester, and I have become a huge fan of block scheduling. It's so efficient, so symmetrical--4 classes per semester, so easy to keep track of everything.

 

Whatever you do, I would not sit there and hold his hand. He's 16, nearly ready for college. You can provide the tools, but he needs to sink or swim on his own. Course, I'm a little extreme in that regard, so you may not want to listen to me.

 

Terri

[nancy in nj]

I couldn't imagine having my daughter take difficult pre-calculus tests online. For background, she is currently in a very difficult AP Calc BC class with PA Homeschoolers and doing fine, but I can assure you that if she was required to work out even difficult pre-calc problems on-line without benefit of pencil and paper her test scores would go down 20-30 points easily! There is something about writing things out while solving a problem step-by-step that would be "disconnected" if she were required to type on the computer instead--its just the way we are wired. Since your son has expressed concerns about "computer brain," perhaps you should have him do the work the work with pencil and paper to check whether this is truly a pre-calc readiness problem or a class format problem.

 

Nancy

[kiana]

I think he should definitely take them on paper.

 

Someone who's looking at engineering needs to be absolutely rock-solid on algebra, geometry, and precalculus. If he cannot get the careless errors under control, all of his major classes (calculus, physics, and the engineering classes) are going to be pretty unmanageable. What grade is he? Is he applying to colleges for the fall? I would rather see a freshman with a solid knowledge of precalculus than one with Cs in precalc and calc. The people who enter having struggled through precalc and calc usually place into my calculus class when they take the placement test, and they often struggle as they know about half of calc (which means that they THINK they know a fair amount of calculus, and therefore don't study enough) and half of precalc.

 

I would talk to his teacher about this as well.

 

I just looked up TPS math classes. I notice that they have a pre-calculus problem-solving class. Is he enrolled in that and is that adding that an option? It looks like it would be cheaper than hiring a tutor.

[1bassoon]

Yes, he's in the problem-solving class, which really is helpful.

 

He is a junior, so he has one more year of h.s. math ahead of him. I've emailed his teacher- who has been REALLY helpful through all of this - to get her feedback. I think it's more of a lazy/sloppy thing on his part. For example, when he turns in his work, he turns in just a notebook with answers in it. He does the work out on "scrap paper", and then tosses it. Go ahead, kick me for that colossal blunder. I should have been on him earlier about this.

 

At any rate, I'm feeling like a failure for not being more on top of this situation, and frustrated with the whole thing. Thanks for listening.

[kiana]

Yes, doing all the work on scrap paper is a bad idea. Doing initial thoughts is fine on scrap paper (I do this, and then copy the work AND the answer neatly into my typed file), but work should be included when copied. Otherwise, the student is unable to use previous work to study from.

 

Don't feel like a failure. Many college students can't get a handle on this, so if your son can get this under control while in high school, he will be ahead of the game. See what his teacher says and go from there.

[1bassoon]

Thanks kiana for your kind words. I have to give a HUGE shout-out to Karen Nelson from TPS - she's been just amazing, helping me strategize and work with my son. She has recommended that students go back to Alg 2 before, but she really thinks we can work out some strategies to help him eliminate his careless mistakes. She's been nothing short of responsive and helpful.

 

Turns out, as I was agonizing about this with my dh, he said he had the SAME problem in high school. That was very helpful for my ds to hear. We're going to press on and double-down, and see how he can improve from here on. Even with his last 2 test score, he still has a solid B in the class, so I think we're ok.