Oldest dd tested - ? re: IQ test and vision problems

[momsuz123]

So, I am hoping some of you can help me (Oh Elizabeth, I need you). I had my oldest dd tested last week by a psych. We have been having some "issues" at home lately with her. She just completed VT recently. In VT, she originally tested very poorly in some areas (less than a 4 y/o), she just turned 9. This was surprising to me because she was reading so high above grade level. She is a BIG componsater!

 

Her strengths are her abstract reasoning (I need to figure out what this really means).

 

My question is that her Perceptional reasoning test was mixed. Her Block Designs score was low average for her, and her Bender Visual Motor Gestalt Design test was not good. The psych said that this is commonly see in kids with ADD. This kind of shocked both my husband and I. Could this at all be attributed to her vision problems? She is now doing her home program (need to be doing it more).

 

Any advice? I don't know if we are dealing with a 2E here or not. How can I better help her get "balanced" out?

 

Thanks.

[wapiti]

I'm not sure about the other subtest, but the block design subtest can definitely be affected by vision issues. However, I think block design can also be affected by a number of other factors besides vision. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[PeterPan]

Well I'm buzzing off to bed here, so I'll be fast. I'm not a test guru anyway and don't really know all the tests you're talking about. You don't balance out kids. They are who they are. If she has adhd, she has adhd. She wouldn't be the first child, and sometimes there's someone else in the family she got the genes from. I suppose there are patterns the psych has noticed, but you should be getting a full eval and not drawing conclusions of visual processing tests, mercy.

 

The two (vision and attention) are going to play together. Your visual processing skills that you are rebuilding (presumably, hopefully what you're working on now) after basic vision therapy are going to *draw* on visual memory, visualization, and processing speed. Working memory, processing speed, etc. are the very things affected by the adhd. So the two will intertwine. It's none of my business, but frankly I don't know why you're doing therapy at home like that. Either you need therapy or you're don't. It might be you need a new therapist who is more skilled in visual processing and adhd. Our place also does PACE, so they can really take things to the next level, making the leap from vision function to visual processing to school skills. But that's an aside.

 

Adhd kids usually fit a pattern. Gaddis focuses on it as being right-brained. Our OT viewed adhd as part of a larger pattern you see with spectrum, etc. etc. Everybody has their spin. In any case, it's why you can't change it or solve it or reverse it, because it's intrinsic to who they ARE and how their brain functions. You learn how to work with it, give them more tools in their tool box (more working memory, ability to transition, counseling for anxiety, medications if they need them to function, etc.), but they ARE who they are. You don't FIX them. If the dc seems particularly unfathomable to you, it might be she got the genes from the other parent. I suggest you confer with that other parent. Might make some issues more obvious.

 

She's 9, and it's two weeks before Christmas. I suggest you use this time and this new information on a possible diagnosis to give yourself the mental freedom to try some new things. To eliminate conflict, you have to find new ways to work together. A lot of the advice you'll see is for *boy* adhd. *Girl* adhd is a bit different. Then there are the subtypes (inattentive, hyperactive, blah blah). So do some reading and start thinking about what you could change. You could probably change a lot. You will probably have to change a lot to get the peace you want. It's a process of you learning and sorting out issues. But use this time over the next month to try some things you never thought of before. Step out of your box more and see if you can find a peaceful equilibrium. Then that gives you something to build back onto for 2nd semester. If you eliminate everything that's giving you trouble and get some peace, then you can add subjects back in one at a time and find ways to work together and get it to work. That's my advice, not having a clue what your exact issues are.

 

They'll give you an adjusted IQ score that removes the areas problematic with adhd and let's you see the rest. Gives you a better sense of how they balance out. Like wapiti is saying, if their processing speed is low (and other things), it will knock down that full IQ a lot. Don't sweat it. You want a full eval and the chance to know the processing speed, working memory, and all this info, because you want to let that guide you into informed decisions. When we realized my dd has a HUGE gap between her processing speed % and IQ, we tossed some things that had been frustrating us. Maybe that was lack of character or whatever, but we could make those decisions based on information and ELIMINATE CONFLICT. The dc doesn't know why something is happening or how to put it into words, but they know there's a problem. They instinctively revile and are sort of self-protective. So when you're rubbing against their problems in the wrong way, it's like rubbing a cat backward. And is the problem the cat or the person rubbing it? ;) So the eval shows you which way to rub their fur. :)

 

Sorry you've had a shock right before the holidays. Took me a *full year* between the time I first had a person suggest the label and when I was ready to take the step. You're doing better than I did. You'll chill and get there and figure it out.

[momsuz123]

Thanks girls. Oh Elizabeth - so much info - thanks. So, I was told by a pscych that when kiddos aren't "balanced" that is when problems occur. This was just a psych I talked to on the phone when I was trying to figure out where to take my dd. (He was too far away, so I didn't go there). So, I will need to find some good books to read over the holidays and digest all of this. I just want to help out my kiddos the best I can. Her strengths are the abstract reasoning, her weakness was the perceptual (actually it was mixed). Based on the advice of "balancing" her out, I was trying to decide if more vision type games could help her.

As far as VT, she did graduate after 9 months, but they have the kids do a home program now, and retest again in 3 month to see if they are continuing to improve, or maintain. It is just about a few minutes/day.

Hmmmm...much to learn, thanks all. I was just blown away by the ADD possibility. Never would have guessed it.

[Tiramisu]

So, I am hoping some of you can help me (Oh Elizabeth, I need you). I had my oldest dd tested last week by a psych. We have been having some "issues" at home lately with her. She just completed VT recently. In VT, she originally tested very poorly in some areas (less than a 4 y/o), she just turned 9. This was surprising to me because she was reading so high above grade level. She is a BIG componsater!

 

Her strengths are her abstract reasoning (I need to figure out what this really means).

 

My question is that her Perceptional reasoning test was mixed. Her Block Designs score was low average for her, and her Bender Visual Motor Gestalt Design test was not good. The psych said that this is commonly see in kids with ADD. This kind of shocked both my husband and I. Could this at all be attributed to her vision problems? She is now doing her home program (need to be doing it more).

 

Any advice? I don't know if we are dealing with a 2E here or not. How can I better help her get "balanced" out?

 

Thanks.

 

First of all, I think really you need to look at the test results in context with what you have been seeing over time. If you are working with your child every day and are concerned enough to pursue testing, you already know there's something there. And, you know better than anyone already what the real life issues are without testing. Testing does give you answers, but again take the results in context of your experience with her life and learning, because if it's only one lower score, there could be an explanation. We were told repeatedly by different specialists if there's an outlier, one score significantly different from the rest, it's better not to put too much emphasis on it. You could look up the the subtest and what it's supposed to measure and see if it jives with the reality you are seeing. Also, as you do that, look what the other subtests measure, and you will see that there's a lot of overlap in what abilities they are supposed to gauge. Then you can cross-reference.

 

I was always told that one test, like the WISC, for example, will not tell you if your kid has ADHD, but that there are patterns that you will see in kids that have ADHD symptoms in real life. Usually, you don't hear of Block Design as being an indicator of ADHD as much working memory and processing speed, with (verbal reasoning + perceptual reasonsing) being greater than (working memory + processing speed). But I'm sure there are many cases where a kid has ADHD in real life and might have a completely different pattern. Do you have your report yet with the scores to see any patterns like this?

 

I had one dc who had an outlier on the WISC and what it was supposed to measure did coincide with what I saw as a weakness in real life. However, the other tests that measured the same abilities were actually high. I never could get a good explanation so I'm interested to see what happens on that subtest when that dc is tested again. Then I have another one, who did a visual motor integration test, probably similiar to the one you mention, who scored horribly. I was shocked, really shocked, and spent a few days obsessed with that score, but then time passed and I realized that of course there could be some weakness because otherwise I wouldn't have had her tested, but I also knew that the results of that test--that took minutes to complete at the very end of a testing session--did not at all correspond in degree to what I had been seeing at home for years. I decided it was okay to let it go. I think that entire testing session and its results allowed me to say, in this case, I know better. It helped that I could pull in the expertise of other professionals to confirm my opinion.

 

About getting her "balanced" out...The WISC is supposed to measure innate cognitive abilities. There are ways that you can improve working memory, for example, and lifestyle factors that influence strengths and weaknesses in certain areas, but basically you've got what you've got. Of course, visual or audtiory weaknesses will impact scores, too--some more than others--and you can work on those to some degree. Even so, you still have a kid in front of you with a set of strengths and weaknesses. And I have to agree with OhE, and say, EMBRACE your dd and LOVE her for who she is. Work on the weaknesses in a way that doesn't frustrate so you lose time and energy that could otherwise be spent on her gifts. If you are able to approach life and learning in a way that takes advantage of her strengths, her gifts, everything will be easier. She will learn, her self-esteem will remain intact, and your relationship will be preserved.

 

If you need to spiritualize things like I do to see a reason behind them to give meaning to my daily slog, you might be able to look at it this way. God gave your dd her gifts and he allowed her the weaknesses as part of the working out of His Plan for her and you and the rest of your family and the other people whose lives she will touch. Accept her for who she is and go from there. Yes, it's hard to struggle with these "weaknesses" but there's a purpose. We just might not know what it is yet. ;-)

[momsuz123]

Okay, more questions. Sorry girls. So, for example, her abstract reasoning is really strong. Are you saying then since I know that use her God given strength MORE in school? Likewise, her weakness is more involving her eyes with the Block Design (which is a perceptual test). I would think I should try and strengthen her weaknesses, but make it "fun". For example, she HATES puzzles, not big with blocks or legos. So, my thought would be to add more of this into our routine, but in a fun way - and help her. She also is struggling in drawing/art. So again, my thought is to help nurture these areas of weakness.

Now, I get that her areas of weaknesses will always be that, her weakness. Likewise her strengths will always be her strengths.

 

I was also told she is a VERY deductive reasoner. So, knowing this, I am trying to learn what does that mean to me in school and at home. I want to use her strengths to her advantage, and be aware of what frustrates her.

 

Okay, am I on the right track or still missing it? Sorry again. I am so new to so much of this. This is my second year hsing. Last year, I found out both of my girls had big vision problems - so we did 9 months of VT. I also started my younger dd in ST and OT. Older dd is also in OT (she was breaking so many bones last year - they checked her out and she is lagging in some key reflexes). Now younger dd is heading towards a dx of CAPD (she goes next week to see a specialist in this area). So, I have been busy trying to figure out how to homeschool and how to best help my kiddos. Of course, I have found so much useful info on this board. A big thank you to you all.

 

Any other books you recommend for me to read to help me with this? The psych recommended The Whole Brained Child. I just bought it. Any games or anything you recommend?

[wapiti]

I was just blown away by the ADD possibility. Never would have guessed it.

 

If the possibility of ADD is based on those two subtests (block design and the visual motor one you mentioned that I'm not familiar with), that doesn't sound right to me unless there were some sort of particular behavioral observation the psych made during the testing.

 

I was always told that one test, like the WISC, for example, will not tell you if your kid has ADHD, but t

hat there are patterns that you will see in kids that have ADHD symptoms in real life. Usually, you don't hear of Block Design as being an indicator of ADHD as much working memory and processing speed, with (verbal reasoning + perceptual reasonsing) being greater than (working memory + processing speed).

 

This. Furthermore, my understanding is that lots of kids with various different LDs may have relatively low WM and low PS as compared to their VC and PR, *not just kids with ADD/ADHD.* That's actually someplace in a WISC manual that I read once upon a time.

[wapiti]

Last year, I found out both of my girls had big vision problems - so we did 9 months of VT. I also started my younger dd in ST and OT. Older dd is also in OT (she was breaking so many bones last year - they checked her out and she is lagging in some key reflexes).

I would wonder whether there's something in the visual processing or visual memory area that hasn't quite caught up yet after VT improved whatever it improved. I'd also wonder whether the reflexes you mention play a role.

 

If you want to try puzzles, you could do them together - some of my kids often enjoy working on puzzles much more when we do it together.

 

I agree with your thought to teach to strengths in school when possible. Is she a VSL (albeit potentially hampered in the vision area)? If so, my favorite book on that is Silverman's Upside Down Brilliance

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[momsuz123]

Well, we got back from the OT, and she was quite interested in the finding too. One thing that the OT picked up is my dd has no nystagmus reflex. When she is spun in a circle, her eyes stay still. This was picked up after she kept breaking some bones (falls, trips, etc). Then when she really did poorly on some of the subtests and the pysch told me this was indicative of a neurological problem (for example, dd can't draw a diamond in a circle to save her life), she mentioned the possibilty of ADD as one of the examples. When dd was tested for VT she was the "worst" case they had ever seen on some of the tests. She was compensating greatly with her auditory skills, and is reading way above grade level (don't know how with those eyes).

So, the OT just commented to me today about the different tests dd has had over the last year that all have a neurological connection, she said we just don't know what.

Hmmm. Thoughts? By the way, I love you girls - you are so helpful. No one else really "gets it".

[PeterPan]

Wapiti is on the right track here pointing out that the *vision* scores are being held back by her *vision* issues. No, you should not conclude adhd off one test, one subscore, blah blah. A full eval has them with the dc for many hours and doing multiple, overlapping tests. That way they're confirming results and seeing them at multiple times, not just one instance on a bad day when they're tired, whatever.

 

The neurological stuff may have held back her VT progress. She may need to do some OT and then go back and do more VT. That, to me, is kind of super-creepy that your VT doc didn't catch this. The doc should have been checking that. Retained primitive reflexes, sensory integration, these are things that affect progress with VT and the doc should have screened for them. Next time you're in for a check (or if you have an email relationship), mention the reflex to them and see what they think.

 

And sorry, I'm being overly emphatic today. Everything is in the most imperative terms and imprecatory.

 

Anyways, the OT definitely sounds good.

 

Yes, we had to go back and do puzzles after VT. If she is STILL resisting puzzles and rejecting kid-typical things that use vision, then that's a vision problem. I'm going to suggest that probably her VT didn't go as far as it could have if she has reflex issues affecting basic eye function. I would be questioning the doc at that point, but like I said, I'm being imprecatory and nasty today. Be more sane about it, but at least ask the question.

 

We started with, um, trying to remember if it was 24 or 35 or 50. Actually it wasn't 35, because I'm getting ready to buy those for my ds. Just went down and checked. We did 60 piece puzzles when we started. I actually made a post on here with my excitement at her finally being able to do a puzzle! It was a 60 piece puzzle labeled age 4, lol. She was 12 I think. :D Anyways, given her age, you might need to back up further. Lauri has some adorable crepe foam puzzles that are butterflies and girly things. Don't get the hard ones just yet (or get them but save them a bit, till she can do them better). Amazon has the crepe foam, and they're ADORABLE. Ravensburger makes super nice puzzles. I think you could try a Ravensburger 60 or 35. The 60 are labeled age 4+ but have rather small pieces and colors that fade together. If I were you, I'd start easier and go with the 35. If those are too hard, then you're looking at 24 (in a box) or board puzzles.

 

Walmart sometimes has good puzzles, and the Goodwill OFTEN has good puzzles. I hit them up as often as I can, because I almost always find something I can use for therapy. Oh, the Dollar Tree is another place to get puzzles. I got a bunch of my 60 piece puzzles there when dd was little. She never actually did them, and I just always figured she was too young or too awesomely gifted in other creative areas. She sculpted a lot, etc., so I figured she was just too artistic. What a bunch of self-deceptive cr*p. She had vision problems, visual processing problems, and couldn't do a puzzle. When you get her vision right, she WILL be able to do puzzles. She'll now sit down and work on a 300 piece with me or occasionally part of a 500. She'll do bits of a Liberty puzzle with me. If you want to blow their minds, get your girls Liberty puzzles for Christmas! They have the MOST ADORABLE, beautiful, wonderful puzzles that are this extreme sensory pleasure. They're laser cut from wood, so you get this thick, sliding feeling, just delish for sensory. They have Liberty puzzles in a smaller size (lower piece count) that are rather affordable for what they are (in the $30 range) in a variety of kid themes. I ADORE them. I so want them all, hehe. I just own a few. Guess that's what I'll do when I retire, sit around assembling and playing with Liberty puzzles. :)

 

Have fun with your puzzles. Seriously, they're fun to do (like now, take a Christmas break!), and they're super for her vision skills. If she still resists them, even with a low count, then you need to do more OT and then go back for more VT, possibly with a different doc. You can also play games that involve visualization and visual memory. Spot It, SET, Chocolate Fix, Ticket to Ride, any form of memory,...

[PeterPan]

http://www.amazon.com/CATN-KITTENS-CREPE-RUBBER-PUZZLE/dp/B000FGIT8Y/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1354648704&sr=8-5&keywords=lauri+crepe+rubber+puzzle

 

http://www.amazon.com/Ravensburger-Dress-Up-Duel-Puzzle/dp/B0032VUV4O/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1354648748&sr=1-2&keywords=ravensburger+35

[Heathermomster]

I just had a thought...You may need to get clever with the whole using puzzles thing. Have you taught her to sew? Sewing involves putting patterns together. Games like QWIRKLE or Connect 4 may benefit her.

 

When you ask about playing to your DD's strengths, it's apparent that she is an auditory learner. Her comprehension is high despite her vision problems. Allow her to continue learning in a way that makes her feel comfortable, while spending some time dealing with the vision. I hope that the Drs, can help you sort out the suspected neuro problems.

 

ETA: Brain Gym exercises keep coming to mind. Are you using any of those with your child?

[PeterPan]

My dd enjoyed sewing even before she had VT. It really plays to their VSL strengths. She's amazing to me actually, because she would sew doll clothes without a pattern! She'd just have something in her mind, cut it out, and make it.

 

The nice thing about puzzles, if you get the level simple enough that she can do them, is they let you be really efficient at your task. There are some issues there that aren't present with sewing (figure/ground, etc.).

 

There's a younger spin on Connect 4 called Toot and Otto. It's cute.