creekland Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 It's NOT all in our head that things used to be much easier and far less expensive... Yes, this is a college confidential thread link, but it's not a typical thread. It's about the contents of a 35 year old college guide book... ;) Times sure have changed! http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1361522-35-year-old-college-guide-book.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Fascinating find! What I think one of the main differences between then and now, is that back then students had a more realistic and honest assessment of their own abilities. Very few students even applied to the ivies. They were only the very top students and only those who thought they had a real chance of getting accepted. I don't remember such talk about reach schools and all. I know that there was some of that, but I think even the "reaches" were more realistic than they are now. The SAT was also harder. 800's were very rare. 700 was an excellent score. I don't remember anyone thinking that it was easy to get into the ivies and I don't remember students applying to a bunch of schools just to see if they could get in. I don't know what the average number of applications was, but I'm fairly certain it was a whole lot less than now. Remember when the cost of applying was enough to keep students thinking realistically? And even the wealthy families seemed to value the dollar a bit more and spend less frivolously on dozens of pie in the sky applications. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyone remember differently? What I do remember is that the costs for higher education seemed so much more reasonable. There wasn't any talk, that I can remember, of college putting students into horrendous debt upon graduation. It was more like owing the money for a car than owning the money for a house. :tongue_smilie: But I don't look fondly on those college selection books. I'm so glad that we have the internet available today. The blurbs give you an idea about the school, but there's so much more info available online, and I think it's easier to make a good choice these days. Another problem now is that many students look like they fit the stats for schools which are not suitable for them. Some students can get high enough scores with the right prep classes and tutors and all, and their GPA is in range because you have to be practically failing to get a B. But somehow the admissions needs to really evaluate each applicant and decide whether they are truly capable of the level of work needed at their university, or whether it's just grade inflation and they'd be better suited elsewhere. That's when the rigor of the high school studies comes into play. And IMO I think it's more telling than a GPA these days. An AP score of 4 or 5 can't be fudged - the student has to actually know the material. And with the exception of the CC classes mentioned here with grade inflation, the CC students I know have to work hard in their classes, and B's are a possibility as are C's, D's and F's. The students here who are following TWTM classical education and reading excellent literature and have beautiful course descriptions, all of that can usually be seen in the essays they write and certainly would come across in a college interview. You might be able to fudge on paper what's been studied, but it all comes to light in an interview. I'm babbling off course now. :lol: But all of this would have been clear on a student's transcript back in 1975 as students were given the full spectrum of grades, not just an A or a B for showing up. Now admissions PTB have to look beyond the GPA and test scores to try to determine what the student's abilities really are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwen in VA Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Fascinating and depressing thread. This is not an easy time to be a young adult. 1) There are a lot more high school grads now than there were in the 70's. 2) There are more international students applying now. 3) The college degree is pretty much required for many many jobs, not mecessarily because the classwork is relevant but because the degree shows responsibility, etc. (We can dislike this fact all we want, but there it is.) 4) As the bachelor's degree means less and less, people are increasingly interested in the "prestige' degree -- if I am a shoe-in at an okay state school, I can still try for more prestigious schools because my future career may depend on it. 5) As the costs increase, the need for financial aid increases. As the need for financial aid increases, people apply to more schools because fin aid varies so hugely school to school. 6) As more and more students apply to the top schools, there is a trickle down effect -- if I can't go to #1-ranked school, maybe I can still get into #20 or #50 or..... 7) The number of 'prestige" schools has not increased by much -- state schools have developed excellent honors programs over the past few decades, but they still don't have that "aura" of an Ivy. 8) While some schools have dramatically increased enrollment, the enrollment at many of the "prestige" schools has not gone up by multiples. Result of points 1-8 -- more applicants generally. Specifically, more applicants to top schools and, with the trickle-down effect, more applicants to lesser schools. I visited four schools. I applied to four schools, of which I had visited only two. I took some AP's and SAT-2's but did NO prep work for the SAT or any of the SAT-2's. I can barely bring myself to mention these facts to my kids -- their world is so different! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Fascinating find! What I think one of the main differences between then and now' date=' is that back then students had a more realistic and honest assessment of their own abilities. Very few students even applied to the ivies. They were only the very top students and only those who thought they had a real chance of getting accepted. I don't remember such talk about reach schools and all. I know that there was some of that, but I think even the "reaches" were more realistic than they are now.[/quote'] I think you're right. Applying to 6 or fewer schools was common at my high school and I don't recall anyone getting denied anywhere. The worst might be a wait list. I went to a great high school, but I think the guidance office just aligned applications better with few, if any, reaches. We had kids go to tippy top schools. Result of points 1-8 -- more applicants generally. Specifically, more applicants to top schools and, with the trickle-down effect, more applicants to lesser schools. I visited four schools. I applied to four schools, of which I had visited only two. I took some AP's and SAT-2's but did NO prep work for the SAT or any of the SAT-2's. I can barely bring myself to mention these facts to my kids -- their world is so different! :iagree: We could only take AP senior year, then only 3 classes max. I don't recall anyone taking SAT 2 tests. We did have an SAT study class that met twice per week though. We must have been ahead of our time. This was early 80's, so a few years after the book. I feel for kids now. Many are being shorted an education in high school, but have it tougher when applying to and affording college - yet it's more expected if you want a mid-level job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belacqua Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 That 44% admit rate for MIT made me laugh. What is it now, 9%? And that includes hooked applicants. Yikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 That 44% admit rate for MIT made me laugh. What is it now, 9%? And that includes hooked applicants. Yikes. What amazes me is how quickly it has all changed. We're not talking about acceptance rates and fees back in the 1800s or early 1900s. We're talking about the 1970s. Granted the $ was worth less back then, but not that much. And the acceptance rates? We have more students now, but 4 - 5 times more? People talk about the bubble bursting, but how does that happen when the acceptance rates are so low? If a handful decide college isn't for them - if a couple of handfuls decide - there are plenty more to still fill the class - probably equally qualified. I can see some of the lesser schools no longer being able to fill classes if the bubble bursts, but that's not necessarily a bad thing if they are charging a bit and their grads can't compete for jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy in Richmond Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Creekland, thank you for posting this! I'm pretty sure that's the college guidebook that I used back in...umm...the mid 70s.:tongue_smilie: At least, I remember that the book I used ranked colleges that way. That book is how I found U Rochester... I had no idea about what to look for in a college, since I was in the first generation of my family to attend. Only about 1/5 of my high school class went to any kind of higher ed, and the most common choices were the local community college, Edinboro State teacher's college, and Penn State / Pitt satellite campus sites. Since my guidance counselor had little experience outside that list, I went to the only bookstore in town and bought that guidebook. I went down the 'most selective' list within a three hour radius from home, and got Carnegie Mellon, U Rochester, and Cornell. I added U Pitt for a safety and Notre Dame for my dream school (even through it was too far away for my parents). We took our SATs and Achievement tests (now the SAT IIs) only once back then, without study guides. No retests - you just took the score you got! So much simpler than today.:) I remember that after my scholarship, my first year at Rochester cost about $1000. I think that my scholarship was for full tuition (memory is fading here!), so that figure probably was the room and board cost for a year. Haha...nothing like today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 It's NOT all in our head that things used to be much easier and far less expensive... Yes, this is a college confidential thread link, but it's not a typical thread. It's about the contents of a 35 year old college guide book... ;) Times sure have changed! http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1361522-35-year-old-college-guide-book.html I mean, do you realize what a short time ago 1975 was? I know I'm ancient and a we bit older than that, but on the scale of inflation, how short of a time that is? How is this pricing even sustainable? Even more, how is it sustainable with such low acceptance averages? BUT, what was 40% of an acceptance rate back then and what is 9% now? How many were applying back then as opposed to now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 7, 2012 Author Share Posted July 7, 2012 I remember that after my scholarship, my first year at Rochester cost about $1000. I think that my scholarship was for full tuition (memory is fading here!), so that figure probably was the room and board cost for a year. Haha...nothing like today! I'd be so ready for this! Yesterday I just started buying books for my older two and spent $500. That wouldn't be bad (by today's standards) except I have 3 or 4 classes left to buy for. Those books weren't listed yet (and in one class my oldest thinks he can get the book from a friend). I'd have spent $700 if I'd waited and let them buy the books at the bookstore. Normally I save more buying online, but this time many of the professors have selected new/updated books so used books have held onto a bit of value. :glare: I don't recall using a guidebook back in my high school days. I applied to colleges based on recommendations from my guidance counselor and my AFROTC mentor. I ended up with Duke, Boston U, Georgetown, George Washington, VA Tech, and SUNY Potsdam (my parent's Alma mater - "I" never really considered this one). I got into them all and picked Va Tech due to getting my education for practically free ($2000 for all 4 years, not each year) and it being in the south whereas Boston U is in the north (they offered to match the finances, but they couldn't change their weather). Duke was my #1 choice, but we couldn't afford them - even with an AFROTC scholarship for full tuition and books. No regrets though. I loved VT, got a great education, and met hubby there! I mean, do you realize what a short time ago 1975 was? I know I'm ancient and a we bit older than that, but on the scale of inflation, how short of a time that is? How is this pricing even sustainable? Even more, how is it sustainable with such low acceptance averages? BUT, what was 40% of an acceptance rate back then and what is 9% now? How many were applying back then as opposed to now? On page two this was posted: According to CPI Inflation Calculator , $1.00 in 1975 is equivalent to $4.27 now, adjusted for inflation. But those tuitions listed in #3 are still much lower than today after multiplying by 4.27. On page 5 this was posted comparing tuition and # of applicants for Harvard. It doesn't go back to 1975, but the # of applicants for most good schools are extremely high - and have increased as tuition has increased. 1991 13,960 => 13,029 applicants 1992 14,860 1993 15,870 1994 16,856 1995 17,851 => 18,190 applicants 1996 18,838 1997 19,770 1998 20,600 1999 21,342 2000 22,054 2001 22,694 => 19,605 applicants 2002 23,457 => 20,987 applicants 2003 24,630 2004 26,066 => 22,717 applicants 2012-2013 Tuition $37,576 => 34,302 applicants. I don't see prices going down until (and if) demand decreases. US college age population is supposed to start decreasing after last year, but the number of international applicants has increased to more than make up for it (so I've heard/read). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I mean, do you realize what a short time ago 1975 was? I know I'm ancient and a we bit older than that, but on the scale of inflation, how short of a time that is? How is this pricing even sustainable? Even more, how is it sustainable with such low acceptance averages? BUT, what was 40% of an acceptance rate back then and what is 9% now? How many were applying back then as opposed to now? I was curious how other prices from 1975 and 2012 compare, so I looked up the average price of a new car. 1975 -- $4250 2012 -- $30,748 Then looking at this statistics on this site http://kwharbaugh.blogspot.com/2005/02/educational-costs.html for the cost of Harvard tuition - not including room and board: 1975 -- $3740 - $3590 2011/2012 -- $36,305 I know that this is only one item for comparison, but it does show how much more inflated the cost of tuition at Harvard, or likely just about any school, is compared to the cost of a vehicle. What was interesting in the above link is that in 1928 and 1947, almost 20 years later, the cost for tuition was $400. The prices during that span aren't given in the article, but I'm guessing that they likely dropped, or remained the same, during the depression years. I just tried googling, but I can't find figures for 1938. Would be interesting to see what happened to tuition costs during that time. Creekland, I hear you on the costs for the textbooks alone. It makes high school texts seem cheap - and clearly they're not!!! :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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