Can biology and chemistry be done at the same time? Can they be reversed?

[4kids4me]

Dd doesn't really want to do chemistry, but for Apologia it is a prerequisite for Human Body. Can chemistry be either done first or concurrently with biology? She has Algebra 1 (Teaching Textbooks) and will be doing Algebra 2 next year.

[regentrude]

Modern biology texts begin with a lot of biochemistry. It is much easier if the student has taken chemistry before biology.

The reason that schools start with bio is that most students do not have enough math to cover chemistry, not because this sequence makes any sense.

We have done bio before chem and in hindsight it would have been a lot easier if DD had had chemistry.

[4kids4me]

Modern biology texts begin with a lot of biochemistry. It is much easier if the student has taken chemistry before biology.

The reason that schools start with bio is that most students do not have enough math to cover chemistry, not because this sequence makes any sense.

We have done bio before chem and in hindsight it would have been a lot easier if DD had had chemistry.

 

Oh, ok, this is interesting. Is Algebra 1 having been completed enough to start chemistry?

 

What are your thoughts of doing them concurrently?

[mumto2]

I just added the apologia chemistry in with biology about a month ago. We were moving slower then needed do to some timing issues with my son. It seems to be going fine. We are 3 chapters into the chemistry and 8 into biology. In England all 3 sciences are studied together so my kids are happy--more like their friends.

[TammyS]

I just added the apologia chemistry in with biology about a month ago. We were moving slower then needed do to some timing issues with my son. It seems to be going fine. We are 3 chapters into the chemistry and 8 into biology. In England all 3 sciences are studied together so my kids are happy--more like their friends.

 

I've been all set to start with biology (Campbell's) this fall, but I have the apologia chem in my closet (because I got it cheap at a sale). Now I'm curious as to how you do this, because my son has been wanting to do chemistry, and I'm thinking maybe I should combine the two after all.

[regentrude]

Oh, ok, this is interesting. Is Algebra 1 having been completed enough to start chemistry?

 

If your algebra 1 course includes exponentials and logarithms, then yes. For stoichiometry, simple ratios and linear equations is all that is needed, but reaction kinetics/chemical equilibrium require logarithms/exponentials.

 

What are your thoughts of doing them concurrently?

I do not see how doing them concurrently would get the student any of the benefit of chemistry knowledge since the biochemistry is first in the modern biology texts - but most chemistry books start with stoichiometry and do not get to the "why" of reactions until much later in the course.

 

I don't see what can be gained by doing them concurrently using standard materials.

I could see the benefit for truly integrated courses, but it would require to do biology in a different order and start with organisms and classifications and deal with biochemistry last - which means you can not use any of the standard textbooks.

Edited June 21, 2012 by regentrude

[4kids4me]

I was thinking of doing them concurrently in gr. 10 so she could do human body in gr. 11 and marine biology in gr. 12.

 

Since she hasn't done logarithms, I guess she need to do biology in gr. 10, then chemistry after that. Maybe chem and marine bio in gr. 11 and human body in 12, then.

[mumto2]

I just wanted to say that I have combined the apologia biology and chemistry more for timing then anything else. My son is not a fan of biology apparently. Because both dc's do science together he is slowing his sister down greatly. Something always conveniently happens.

 

One option for us was to separate them -- which would mean labs twice. They like labs together. Or add the chemistry which ds loves and knows a lot about already. It is a serious interest of his. This means while preparing for one science test they can do the chapter work in the other. I am not trying to coordinate the texts. We are looking at this as separate courses. For us it is working. We have only been doing it for a month-- it may not work throughout. But we are trying it. Both dc's have completed the required math for apologia chemistry. The first two chapters are almost completely algebra. Lots of formulas and converting measurements.

 

We will not complete both in 1 year. I know this. But both dc's are happy about science again as opposed to having bored and frustrated children. It seems to be working for us. I am not sure if it is right for everyone so I won't say recommend it. I personally would prefer one at a time but that was not working and thanks to home ed I was able to make biology more acceptable for my son!

[4kids4me]

I just wanted to say that I have combined the apologia biology and chemistry more for timing then anything else. My son is not a fan of biology apparently. Because both dc's do science together he is slowing his sister down greatly. Something always conveniently happens.

 

One option for us was to separate them -- which would mean labs twice. They like labs together. Or add the chemistry which ds loves and knows a lot about already. It is a serious interest of his. This means while preparing for one science test they can do the chapter work in the other. I am not trying to coordinate the texts. We are looking at this as separate courses. For us it is working. We have only been doing it for a month-- it may not work throughout. But we are trying it. Both dc's have completed the required math for apologia chemistry. The first two chapters are almost completely algebra. Lots of formulas and converting measurements.

 

We will not complete both in 1 year. I know this. But both dc's are happy about science again as opposed to having bored and frustrated children. It seems to be working for us. I am not sure if it is right for everyone so I won't say recommend it. I personally would prefer one at a time but that was not working and thanks to home ed I was able to make biology more acceptable for my son!

 

Thanks for sharing your experience! What math background did they have before they started?

[mumto2]

My son is about halfway through Advanced Algebra in Lof. He has also completed A beka algebra and a variety of other things like key to. My daughter is doing the lof calculus book.

 

Apologia recommends Algebra 1 be completed. So far, remember we are in chapter 3, they need to be able to use the formulas and completely understand what they are doing. Not hard as long as they are comfortable with algebra. We have the cd version of the book. We really like it because it is easy to watch the sample problem in the book being done.

[4kids4me]

My son is about halfway through Advanced Algebra in Lof. He has also completed A beka algebra and a variety of other things like key to. My daughter is doing the lof calculus book.

 

Apologia recommends Algebra 1 be completed. So far, remember we are in chapter 3, they need to be able to use the formulas and completely understand what they are doing. Not hard as long as they are comfortable with algebra. We have the cd version of the book. We really like it because it is easy to watch the sample problem in the book being done.

 

Thanks. :) I think I'll have dd peruse the chem book and see if she could do the work.

[flyingiguana]

We ended up combining them, for no good reason. It wasn't planned. We had the lectures, so we just went with it. It took 1-1/2 to two years. It might have been doable in 1 year, but that would have been most of what we did.

 

There's really no reason why biochem *has* to be the first topic in biology. Many professors/colleges mix up the topics in college courses. I guess there's some assumption that the students have maybe had high school chem, but seeing how most kids do in college chem, I find it unlikely that most of them really remember anything from the high school chem that would help them with the biochem in intro biology.

 

If you're going to do a heavy duty biochem in the intro bio, while doing chem concurrently, you're going to have to know which topics to pick to cover first in bio that don't depend on the chemistry. However, I've noticed that many intro bio texts don't really do the biochem in any meaningful *chemistry* sort of way. It's more a memorization of facts type approach that might not really be helped by doing chemistry first. So you could just launch right into it without the chem background.

 

If your plan is to jump right into AP bio, then you might want to be more concerned about having the chem first.

 

We did the Thinkwell AP bio lectures. He starts out with a historical approach to the development of evolutionary theory and spends quite some time on that, so it might be perfectly possible, with that approach, to do a bit of chemistry while he's doing some of that. Or to set up your own course that way. You might not want to do all of evolution before chemistry, however, as molecular evolution may not be quite as understandable.

 

Something to remember though, is that this is likely only the first exposure to these topics if the student goes to college. It often doesn't matter what order these things get done in the first time around as it's more of an introduction. Things often don't start to gel until the second time through.

[4kids4me]

We ended up combining them, for no good reason. It wasn't planned. We had the lectures, so we just went with it. It took 1-1/2 to two years. It might have been doable in 1 year, but that would have been most of what we did.

 

There's really no reason why biochem *has* to be the first topic in biology. Many professors/colleges mix up the topics in college courses. I guess there's some assumption that the students have maybe had high school chem, but seeing how most kids do in college chem, I find it unlikely that most of them really remember anything from the high school chem that would help them with the biochem in intro biology.

 

If you're going to do a heavy duty biochem in the intro bio, while doing chem concurrently, you're going to have to know which topics to pick to cover first in bio that don't depend on the chemistry. However, I've noticed that many intro bio texts don't really do the biochem in any meaningful *chemistry* sort of way. It's more a memorization of facts type approach that might not really be helped by doing chemistry first. So you could just launch right into it without the chem background.

 

If your plan is to jump right into AP bio, then you might want to be more concerned about having the chem first.

 

We did the Thinkwell AP bio lectures. He starts out with a historical approach to the development of evolutionary theory and spends quite some time on that, so it might be perfectly possible, with that approach, to do a bit of chemistry while he's doing some of that. Or to set up your own course that way. You might not want to do all of evolution before chemistry, however, as molecular evolution may not be quite as understandable.

 

Something to remember though, is that this is likely only the first exposure to these topics if the student goes to college. It often doesn't matter what order these things get done in the first time around as it's more of an introduction. Things often don't start to gel until the second time through.

 

Thanks so much for the info!!! :)