Surprising find when researching "Honest Abe"!

[home4school]

Apparently some believe Lincoln lived an "alternative lifestyle".

 

HHHUUMMMMMM...........

 

Amazing what you stumble across trying to plan your "Christian" American history....George Washington supposedly Atheist....Franklin Agnostic...now Lincoln. What next?

 

:confused:Kim

[Susie in MS]

WHAT!!??

What source did you read that about Abe in? And Georgie boy an atheist? Is that why he was praying for his troops?

 

Not being silly at all here! The more I learn about this wonderful country of ours, and all the cover ups and revisions, the more I am tempted to skip American history. Sometimes I don't know who to believe. Could you share your source?

 

Thanks!

[home4school]

Duh! I'm sorry, I forgot to paste the link! Here you go:

 

 

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041206/lincoln.html

 

As far as Washington, I don't remember where I read this. I just tried doing a little Googling to refresh my memory and I just had to stop. I seems there are site after site with quotes from most of the important figures in American history on their unbelief in Christianity: Washington, Lincoln, Franklin, Jefferson, Payne.....

 

I guess it just shows you can find anything at all on the internet. Want them all to be Christians....done. Want them all to be Atheist....Agnostic...done.

 

I think I shall stick with my Christian books and stick my head a little further in the sand!

 

Blessings,

Kim

[Susie in MS]

Thanks for the link!

Is there enough room in that sand box for me!!? Sometimes my research pulls up so much evil in our past and current hx that it makes me want to find a cave to hide in!! Too, bad there is no more uncharted territory where we could start our own colonies. I think that Amish have a good thing going!

[FloridaLisa]

Research the author. A simple google search will tell you lots about the author. Research the book. Here is one of the first articles that popped up as I googled for a bit more information on the author:

 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/107koqzy.asp?pg=2

 

For older children, this is an excellent oppportunity to talk to them about discerning valid from invalid scholarship as well as author bias or agenda. Go to the sources cited and make your own determination -- were the sources cited correctly, within context? Are they valid and are they supported by other sources or is it consistent with every other source on Lincoln?

 

There is a marketplace of ideas. I think it's good to acknowledge that and help our children navigate the ideas and discern truth.

 

Lisa

[mommaduck]

That's where you have to do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

 

Washington, I don't believe was an atheist.

Franklin, I do believe was agnostic.

Lincoln, never heard the alternative lifestyle theory, but the man is at the bottom of my list for his racism.

[Susie in MS]

Great suggestions, Lisa! I will check out that link too.

 

Mamaduck, it shocked me when I found out that the Emancipation Proclamation was not what I was taught in school. I was taught that it basically freed all the slaves, which of course is not true.

 

Sad that we have to dig so deeply to find the truth. Our country is plagued with cover-ups and revisions.

[Jackie in AR]

Research the author. A simple google search will tell you lots about the author. Research the book.

 

 

For older children, this is an excellent oppportunity to talk to them about discerning valid from invalid scholarship as well as author bias or agenda. Go to the sources cited and make your own determination -- were the sources cited correctly, within context? Are they valid and are they supported by other sources or is it consistent with every other source on Lincoln?

 

There is a marketplace of ideas. I think it's good to acknowledge that and help our children navigate the ideas and discern truth.

 

Lisa

 

 

Excellent post, Lisa.

[Book Crazy]

Sad that we have to dig so deeply to find the truth. Our country is plagued with cover-ups and revisions.

 

This is very true of English history. The British Empire was not the great and glorious Empire that populated the world and made the rest of the world equal to the UK, that we were lead to believe in school.

 

I did not know until much later that England was very much into the slave trade. Much of India and Africa's history was white-washed in school. We went there to tame the savages and make them just like us.

 

I always tell my ds, that unless you actual witnessed an event happening, you are always going to have to take what some one has written as their take on events. Someone else may have a different view on events and it's up to you to do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

[Mom to Aly]

.

Lincoln, never heard the alternative lifestyle theory, but the man is at the bottom of my list for his racism.

 

 

I grew up thinking Lincoln was a horrible racist because that is what I was taught in school, as were many my age, and I remember so many saying, at least he did the right thing, even though he was racist. But he wasn't! Read history now, it shows he was not at all! Yet another lie our history teachers taught us (that book is great by the way).

 

And I wouldn't say finding out that any of our past leaders were gay or atheists or agnostics or not Christians presents evils in our pasts--I would hope we are modern enough not to think that way!

 

Jim Weiss's biography of Lincoln is amazing, btw.

[3littlekeets]

I'm not defending that particular author, or that particular claim; however, there are several "credible" research scholars at high ranking institutions that do support that claim - at least that he had close, intimate relationships with men. Remember, "gay" means something different today -- Socrates and Plato both had sexual relationships with students but were not gay (by many accounts).

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05E5D61439F93AA35752C0A9639C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

 

Regardless of whether or not he was or was not gay, I don't think it is relevant to a study of Lincoln unless you are learning about his personal life rather than his politics.

 

And, if he were homosexual, I for one don't think that it diminishes or enhances his political life. In fact, I wish there were more openly gay historical figures to show my children that sexuality isn't a defining characteristic of self! (I know, another view than those expressed here entirely!). My God isn't condemning of that which, I believe, he created.

[Susie in MS]

And I wouldn't say finding out that any of our past leaders were gay or atheists or agnostics or not Christians presents evils in our pasts--I would hope we are modern enough not to think that way!

 

 

Just as Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, so is sin. Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter when committed. Old-fashioned or modern, it doesn't matter. But that is not what I was referring to. I guess I was really speaking in riddles as I will continue to do. There is MUCH evil in the past and present of this country, I am sad to say. There has always been corruption that has even turned on our own people here. I won't go into details as too much is current and I would rather not discuss it on public forums, or with folks I don't know personally. If you think you can trust our government then just talk to an Indian.

[mommaduck]

I grew up thinking Lincoln was a horrible racist because that is what I was taught in school, as were many my age, and I remember so many saying, at least he did the right thing, even though he was racist. But he wasn't! Read history now, it shows he was not at all! Yet another lie our history teachers taught us (that book is great by the way).

 

And I wouldn't say finding out that any of our past leaders were gay or atheists or agnostics or not Christians presents evils in our pasts--I would hope we are modern enough not to think that way!

 

Jim Weiss's biography of Lincoln is amazing, btw.

 

I wasn't taught that in school...it was from studying history for myself and reading what Lincoln believed from his own words put to paper. Technically, Lincoln was a kinist. Some will equal that to racism, some won't.

 

I was taught in school that Lincoln what one of our most "Godly and shining saints in modern history"...yeah, I know better now.

[Julie in GA]

Very interesting! BTW, are you enjoying Omnibus? We had a difficult time with I, but are loving II, and will be doing III next year.

[mommaduck]

We haven't started Omnibus yet ;) My signature is my plans for this next year. I'll be ordering the curriculum in the next few weeks.

[Melissa in CA]

My God isn't condemning of that which, I believe, he created.

 

Yikes! :blink::001_huh: Created people gay did He?

 

I guess my bible has it all wrong then.

 

:leaving: Off to cut out some rather lengthy scriptures from Gods Word, or better yet, toss the whole thing away! I mean, goodness, how am I to know what passages to believe as Truth? :willy_nilly: It's all so very subjective nowadays...

 

 

 

;)

[Mom to Aly]

I am Indian, I don't see what that has to do with anything. Oh, do you mean Native American? And not everyone is Christian, or judges evil or sin by Christian view points or standards. Especially not today. I guess I thought you were referring to that, and, I thought, in an open forum, you were referring to people who might be gay or have different religious preferences as evil, which I, being non Christian, had to question.

[jesiwins]

I also would hope that on an open forum we are not making judgments about the beliefs and personal life choices that others are making.

 

I welcome learning the truth about history, the good, the bad, and the rest. While it may make things more complicated, it helps to teach that life is never black & white but always something in between.

[home4school]

I must apologize for opening this can of worms, so to speak. I wasn't trying to start a debate over lifestyle choices or Christian vs non-Christian.

 

I wasn't brought up being taught the things of God and didn't become a Christian until I was a young adult. Being a Christian, I wanted to teach my children the things of God, to see His hand at work through the past, and was delighted when I started reading books and learning of how our country was built on these things. I had never thought about our fore fathers being Christian or not and reading certain viewpoints, which I naively took as fact, made me glad to be able to teach my children that these men and women loved God so much and desired to worship Him, they were willing to die for that right, especially in a time when people who claim to be Christians can't be bothered to make it to church once a week (personal experience talking here, no judgements towards anyone else!). I just was excited to have these things to teach my kids that I didn't learn growing up.

 

When researching and coming across all these other takes on history, I guess I was a little disheartened. I know, everyone has their own opinion and I must try to discern on my own, fact from fiction, as well as try to teach my boys how to do so. I realize everyone in history couldn't have been a God-glorifying Christian. If they were there wouldn't have been slavery, the horrible treatment of Native American Indians, etc, etc.

 

I was just making a little tongue-in-cheek comment, you can pretty much find anything you want to and a lot of what you don't want to on the internet!

 

Blessings,

Kim

[Catherine]

look at Philip Nobile's profile on the internet. Clearly, he too is not without his biases. I think you are absolutely right to encourage kids to read original sources rather than relying on one source for history or science. The truth will be in there somewhere.

[Susie in MS]

I am Indian, I don't see what that has to do with anything. Oh, do you mean Native American? And not everyone is Christian, or judges evil or sin by Christian view points or standards. Especially not today. I guess I thought you were referring to that, and, I thought, in an open forum, you were referring to people who might be gay or have different religious preferences as evil, which I, being non Christian, had to question.

 

You know what, it was a Native American, as you call him, that referred to himself as an Indian that made the statement that I did in my pp. If he doesn't have a problem with the name then why should I. I have Indian, oops Native American, in my blood, and I don't care one iota for the politically correct terms. Indian is just fine with me.

No, I wasn't referring to lifestyles that I don't believe in, nor was I referring to religions that I don't believe in. I was referring to many government actions that I don't feel at liberty to discuss. And I was referring to those with pen and paper that have agendas who re-write history.

[Susie in MS]

Being a Christian, I wanted to teach my children the things of God, to see His hand at work through the past, and was delighted when I started reading books and learning of how our country was built on these things. I had never thought about our fore fathers being Christian or not and reading certain viewpoints, which I naively took as fact, made me glad to be able to teach my children that these men and women loved God so much and desired to worship Him, they were willing to die for that right, especially in a time when people who claim to be Christians can't be bothered to make it to church once a week (personal experience talking here, no judgements towards anyone else!). I just was excited to have these things to teach my kids that I didn't learn growing up.

 

When researching and coming across all these other takes on history, I guess I was a little disheartened.

Kim

 

This is EXACTLY how I feel. It really is disheartening. When we started hsing and discovered our Christian heritage it was heart warming, but then when I find all of the other takes it let me down big time. I know some of it is true, but a lot of it is hogwash. It is very hard to pull fact from fiction when you have to spend years researching, and still live your daily life.

[mommaduck]

We do still have a Christian history. It's just not as pretty as the past few generations have whitewashed it to be. Even my pastor is willing to stand up in the pulpit, mention the Calivinists and Lutherans fighting on a border during the Reformation era and will state, "don't think we were innocent, we stirred up as much or more than the other guy". We won't learn from history if we don't confront the good, the bad, and especially the ugly.

 

Btw, I am part Native American. We have many Indians (Eastern) in this country compared to 100yrs ago. It helps to prevent misunderstanding to clarify whom we are talking about. "Indian" is not a term we came up with for ourselves, it was placed upon us.

[Mom to Aly]

I realized just now how nasty "Indian" thing could have sounded, and I really didn't mean it that way, my first reaction was what does Indian have to do with it? It is a big deal to me because I do think Indian from India when people say Indian, automatically, and it is confusing to me, and when I say I'm Indian, people automatically think Native American, but I really didn't mean it nastily.

 

As for the religion thing, I'm not Christian, and I guess I get tired of always being spoken to as if I am. Someone else responded with something about God, and someone else answered with something about the Bible, but the first person had not said she was Christian. I moved from Manhattan to the Bible Belt and I was bringing my own probs onto the board, and I am terribly sorry for that. My error, and please accept my sincere apologies for that.

[AmyTompkins]

Quoting from the original article....

 

"I believe that Lincoln engaged in homosexual acts with several men, but this was an era before any understanding of the concept of self-identifying as an homosexual. The word was not even used during Lincoln's life."

 

Hmmmm... they didn't have the Bible in the 1800's? :lol:

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[Debbie in OR]

I second/third/fourth (however many there were!) the comments on making sure you are working from primary source documents...not others interpretations of someone's interpretation. I, too, believed several (erroneous) things about Ben Franklin that I had read in "historical" books. Then I actually read his autobiography. Wow. Those "facts" I had believed had been distorted, omitted or just plain re-written. Ditto G. Washington and Lincoln. I gotta say, it is scary to me the things I have believed just because they were in a printed book.

[Donna A.]

Quoting from the original article....

 

"I believe that Lincoln engaged in homosexual acts with several men, but this was an era before any understanding of the concept of self-identifying as an homosexual. The word was not even used during Lincoln's life."

 

Hmmmm... they didn't have the Bible in the 1800's? :lol:

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Some modern translations might use the word "homosexual" (though I don't know because I haven't seen all translations for myself), but the old ones don't. While the definition of homosexual is there, and is condemned, the word homosexual is not in the earlier, more traditional translations.