LittleIzumi Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) I read this article today, linked in another thread. Oh my. Dd is wonderful at mathematical reasoning and concepts but really struggles with remembering facts. She gets very frustrated with the disconnect. This is so, so very tempting, to just fly with mathematical reasoning and estimating and money and math games for a few years and then teach her the arithmetic when she's older and can fly through it towards pre-algebra. (Also, when all the BA books are out. Hah! :lol:) (I'm thinking of going until 3rd grade or so... not 7th as in the article.) Thoughts? Edited April 13, 2012 by LittleIzumi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I answered in the other forum, but will repost my answer here: I do not understand how one can do mathematical reasoning without arithmetic, i.e. without having concrete numbers. You can not reason about addition in an abstract way - for a young child, it is much easier to see what it means in a concrete way (2 apples plus 4 apples - instead of an unspecified abstract number x of apples plus an unspecified abstract number y of apples.0 I think a young child will go from concrete arithmetic TO the concept, not the other way round. Understanding multiplication works only of you have a concrete array of, say, 2x3, or 4x5, balls. I fail to see how you could avoid doing arithmetic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 I answered in the other forum, but will repost my answer here: I do not understand how one can do mathematical reasoning without arithmetic, i.e. without having concrete numbers. You can not reason about addition in an abstract way - for a young child, it is much easier to see what it means in a concrete way (2 apples plus 4 apples - instead of an unspecified abstract number x of apples plus an unspecified abstract number y of apples.0 I think a young child will go from concrete arithmetic TO the concept, not the other way round. Understanding multiplication works only of you have a concrete array of, say, 2x3, or 4x5, balls. I fail to see how you could avoid doing arithmetic. I'm not going to AVOID numbers. I'm not sure why you got that impression from my post or the article. I mean doing living math and games and mathematical reasoning/logic instead of any workbooks or drills until 3rd grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I'm not going to AVOID numbers. I'm not sure why you got that impression from my post or the article. I mean doing living math and games and mathematical reasoning/logic instead of any workbooks or drills until 3rd grade. I think it sounds like a good idea! Let's start a list of living math books for early elementary. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I'm not going to AVOID numbers. I'm not sure why you got that impression from my post or the article. I mean doing living math and games and mathematical reasoning/logic instead of any workbooks or drills until 3rd grade. Sure, you can absolutely learn math without drills and workbooks - but you said you were not going to teach arithmetic, which had me puzzled. you sure need arithmetic for math games. Btw, I do not understand the term "living math". What do you mean by that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I read this article today, linked in another thread. Oh my. Dd is wonderful at mathematical reasoning and concepts but really struggles with remembering facts. She gets very frustrated with the disconnect. This is so, so very tempting, to just fly with mathematical reasoning and estimating and money and math games for a few years and then teach her the arithmetic when she's older and can fly through it towards pre-algebra. (Also, when all the BA books are out. Hah! :lol:) (I'm thinking of going until 3rd grade or so... not 7th as in the article.) Thoughts? If you waited until third, I don't think the child would be harmed -- there is no very-early window for arithmetic memorization. But I myself was unconvinced by that article, which I came across a while ago. The pole problem seems just idiotic to me. This program claims to be binding math to reality; I have some experience with lakes & posts & posts stuck up in lakes & also poles left to soak water in lakes. When in the world would you know that 1/2 of the pole was in mud, 2/3 in water and not know how long the thing was to start with? What does it matter how long it is? are you trying to pull it up? use it on a pier? The whole thing is just muddled. Granted, children who can solve that problem are more mathematically astute than those that can't, and it's a good example of an abstruse problem; but the posing of it reflects a math goal & strategy different to mine. Now lots of people will like the problem just fine, it simply pushes one of my buttons. I will say that we've been able to develop Button's conceptual math much more deeply b/c he knows his facts. Also, you are right, it's a pain to get the facts in at this age and they keep forgetting them if you don't constantly review, and if you don't make the review funnish they get all cranky and you fret that they'll hate math. This is a work in progress 'round here. At the moment we bounce around btw. Calculadder, Singapore's MathSprints, math wrap-ups, and review sheets I write myself. The most effective is when I write up 10 drill problems a day of a sort that Button needs reviewing on, sometimes 2 sets of these, but that takes more time than you'd think and when I do it strikes me as rather obsessive/overkill. But now that I am typing all this out I am thinking I should just suck it up and do the Effective Thing. So: if you want to stick with living math, probably no long-term harm. But a regular drill & review, and mastery of, the facts will open a lot of conceptual math doors. I myself do wonder if all this math practice with Button is worth it; I think so, 'cause he is very very talented in math. also :bigear:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Btw, I do not understand the term "living math". What do you mean by that? Books about math, games, Family Math program, &c I think. There's actually a very nice livingmath site. You can find plans there that line math books up by historical era, WTM-ish style, which is cool. We're drill-and-kill here (well, not "kill" really), but also like some living math resources. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Sure, you can absolutely learn math without drills and workbooks - but you said you were not going to teach arithmetic, which had me puzzled. you sure need arithmetic for math games. Btw, I do not understand the term "living math". What do you mean by that? I suppose I should have said, "formal arithmetic." She already knows basic arithmetic anyway, but she needs constant (like twice a day) drill of facts to remember them, and with her ADHD one fact session is all she can handle at once and she needs to switch to something else entirely or go exercise for a while, so we are completely stalled in our formal math until she gets her facts (she's now going through 1st grade math for the second time, first Singapore and now MEP). She can do a lot of math reasoning, negative numbers, multiplication, fractions, infinity, logic, etc, but she can't move on in formal math without the facts down (multi-step operations are too much without having her facts on top of the ADHD--including things like making ten and then finding the number. It's like pulling teeth no matter how much we practice. It doesn't stick and she can't do it without guidance) and it's killing her love of math. I want to try a living math year while we work on her ADHD and then jump back into formal math. Her sister will continue in normal math. Edited April 13, 2012 by LittleIzumi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 I think it sounds like a good idea! Let's start a list of living math books for early elementary. :D I will be picking up the Penrose, Grapes of Math, and Cat in Numberland books from the library! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I will be picking up the Penrose, Grapes of Math, and Cat in Numberland books from the library! Thanks! I'm going to check out the website the pp mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
u2006kids Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I read this article today, linked in another thread. Oh my. Dd is wonderful at mathematical reasoning and concepts but really struggles with remembering facts. She gets very frustrated with the disconnect. This is so, so very tempting, to just fly with mathematical reasoning and estimating and money and math games for a few years and then teach her the arithmetic when she's older and can fly through it towards pre-algebra. (Also, when all the BA books are out. Hah! :lol:) (I'm thinking of going until 3rd grade or so... not 7th as in the article.) Thoughts? To do as you said what curriculum or software should I use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 To do as you said what curriculum or software should I use? This is an old thread. The OP hasn't been active for well over a month -- she may respond, but looking through her posts she does not appear to have done this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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