Science Fair Questions (x-post)

[DawnL]

My kids entered the regional and state science fairs this year. It was my oldest's second time and she's an 11 year old 5th grader. My boys are 8 and 5 and they had fun and got exactly the right experience for their age from this.

 

My daughter, however, was disappointed at her score in the state science fair. Initially I was very surprised she only received Honorable Mention when last year she received Second Place. But looking at many of the other projects I think it wasn't that she didn't do a good job. It was that her experiment/ project wasn't as indepth as some of her peers.

 

After her shock and disappointment, she has determined that she will work very hard with the goal of First Place in mind. She found she will have the added incentive of being in the Middle School category for the first time. This will make her eligible for one of 20 spots from each state science fair that goes on to a National Science Fair.

 

Now I've told her that 8th graders are most likely to be chosen for most of those spots since it's their last year of eligibility, but I told her that she shouldn't let that stop her from trying.

 

My big question is, though, is that some of the projects didn't seem to have experiments. I wish I could go back and look at some of them now to see how some are put together. I am wondering how a Science Fair Project is put together without an experiment?

 

Such as, one girl, a friend she made last year, had a project asking if a certain flower is used as a coloring or a healing drug. I wish I'd looked more closely at her project but with 3 kids in the fair, spread across the gym, it was hard to look around much. I know she couldn't have been injecting this in drug form into people to see if it cures cancer, so how would she test her theory? And how would she come up with a hypothesis? It really sounds more like a research project.

 

Another girl, my daughter said, had a project about if there are more male or female pandas in captivity. She wrote zoos to ask for information. Again, I don't know all the details, so I don't know if she wrote every zoo. And I dont' know how she came up with a hypothesis or an experiment. I just know that my daughter mentioned this girl's project when I told her that some of the information she might use could come from writing zoos, aquariums, manufacturers, scientists, etc.

 

I told my daughter that I will help her and work her as hard as she wants so she can acheive her goal. But I need to understand how to help her acheive this. I never had the privilige of making a science project ever while growing up. I never heard of or saw a science fair at all. So, I'm a bit out of my league and it's not fair to my kids, most especially my daughter. I really want to help her be successful. I told her I may even have her do one over the summer, with everything except making the display board, and then do another after that. If she can research and work on topics that interest her between now and then, she will be able to pick and choose whichever of her projects she feels she did the best job on and is the most interesting.

 

At these science fairs, there is a large group of kids from one school in another town. It's obvious they have a large support group in not just the school, but the parents as well. The girl who had the flower project this year had an iPad showing some videos of something to do with her project. Last year she did solar powered cars, which she told me she worked on over the summer. We can't afford an iPad, but I know my daughter wants to work hard and compete. I know if she does work hard and learn a lot, she will do well and doesn't need expensive technology to acheive her goals. I sure wish I'd asked this girl about her project this year. She is very confident, but she's also a very nice girl.

 

So, if my daughter has a science fair project, my understanding is that it should have a Purpose, Hypothesis, Procedure, and Conclusion. Say she decided to discover which is more lethal, venom or poison. What would her procedure be? I mean, she's not going to go collect venom and poison and then inject into mice. She's 11 and I don't know anyone who would allow that, plus, I doubt she would want to do that.

 

I've got the first Janice Van Cleave book on 50 Science Fair Projects which is helpful, but I'm still not quite understanding what all her options are. Sorry for this really long ramble. The science fair was just last weekend so we have an entire year to make a plan and execute it. I just feel like I've failed her and wasn't a good enough teacher and I want to make sure that I don't fail her again. She's smart and loves science and she shouldn't fail because of me.

[DawnL]

Gosh, I didn't even realize this board exsisted! I posted this original post on the General Parenting Board but it was suggested I bring it here. I couldn't see how to move the thread so I simply cross-posted it.

[lewelma]

Another x-post.

 

Wow! You are so dedicated. Your desire to help your daughter to succeed in real research is awesome. It is not an easy ask if you have never done it yourself. I am also really pleased to see someone else besides me writing about science fairs! (I write on the logic board). I am currently writing up what my ds(11) has done on his project each week, and what kind of problems we are running into. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361740 And last year I wrote about 20 posts about science fair projects and the scientific method in general on this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263107 I don't know if you have seen them.

 

As for what is required in a science fair project - it must be original research in either science or technology. It can be experimental or observational. I'm not so sure about the Panda project, without seeing it, it does sound like a research project to me also. You really need to read up on the rules/hints of your regional fair. Here is the link to our rules/hints page http://www.sciencefair.org.nz/~science/?q=node/4

 

I completely agree with you that science fair projects do not have to cost much at all. Our most expensive one has probably cost $20 (for the glue used in evaluating the best formula for silly putty). Our current projects so far have cost us nothing. My ds(11) is studying how wind, tide, and direction of the bay affect the long shore transport of sand. My younger son (8) is studying how the depth of topsoil varies depending on the slope and vegetation of the land. All we need are a shovel, ruler, compass, etc.

 

I am happy to help you design a good project, but I would recommend you move this thread to the logic board, because that board moves more slowly and the thread won't be lost in the shuffle. I did scientific research for 6 years in my previous life, so have a bit of experience. This year is also my 8th and 9th science fair projects!

 

 

Post #2 after a bit more info from Dawn:

 

Dawn, I am happy to guide you, but please be aware that the things that I will explain to you here should not be shared directly with your daughter. Children of this age need to be encouraged, and their budding scientific thinking guided carefully and gently. What I would tell her is very different than what I would tell you, her teacher.

 

Her project this year was Fruits Vs. Veggies. She experimented to see which was more electric, fruits or vegetables. She had apples, oranges, and lemons for the fruit, and potatoes, cucumbers, and carrots for the veggies. Her hypothesis was that fruit would be more electric than vegetables, and that apples would be most electric over all. And she was right! She did the old potato clock experiment on the produce, measuring voltage with a multimeter, and she had 3 of each sample. She kept everything in the fridge until she was ready, and tested each item 3 times at 2 minute intervals.

 

Judges for science fairs are looking for originality and probably a bit of relevance, and unfortunately her project this year has neither of these things. Basically, she has chosen a "wizz bang" experiment from a science experiment book and tried to put it into a scientific methodology with a hypothesis. Instead, she really needs to come up with a question that she is really interested in and then find out a way to test it. Looking in books can give you some ideas, but you really need to branch out.

 

In addition, her project is not really relevant. I know that many "basic research" science investigations do not have obvious relevancy, but they at least could lead somewhere. For my son's project this year, who really cares if sand moves laterally on beaches? Except that the city council spends millions of dollars enriching nearby beaches that are being eroded. Whether fruit is more "electric" than vegis really just tells us that fruit has more acid in it, which would really be expected. So it just does not have that "unexpected" aspect to it, that interests people.

 

So you can see she is willing to do the work, but you can also see how this isn't a very indepth experiment for a 5th grader. I just honestly didn't realize this, having no experience for myself.

For 5th grade, my ds's project took 8 weeks. Data collection alone took >20 hours, since he had to survey 28 slides, which each took 45 minutes. This year, 6th grade, he will be taking 15 to 20 measurements of sand movement at 2 different locations with 3 replications each. Each measurement cluster must occur on a different day depending on the tide table and wind speed, and each will take about 1.5 hours. I might add that the water is cooooool! I think you need to thinking bigger.

 

HTH

 

Ruth

Edited April 4, 2012 by lewelma

[DawnL]

Another x-post! LOL

 

Dawn, I am happy to guide you, but please be aware that the things that I will explain to you here should not be shared directly with your daughter. Children of this age need to be encouraged, and their budding scientific thinking guided carefully and gently. What I would tell her is very different than what I would tell you, her teacher.

 

 

I definitely understand! I don't want to do her project for her. I want her to learn from her experience and enjoy it. It's hard to be proud of something if you didn't do it yourself.

 

 

 

 

Judges for science fairs are looking for originality and probably a bit of relevance, and unfortunately her project this year has neither of these things. Basically, she has chosen a "wizz bang" experiment from a science experiment book and tried to put it into a scientific methodology with a hypothesis. Instead, she really needs to come up with a question that she is really interested in and then find out a way to test it. Looking in books can give you some ideas, but you really need to branch out.

 

 

 

This is what I came to realize when thinking about this the next day. This is why I feel I've failed her for this year. I didn't fully understand this myself. But now that I do, I will definitely be prepared to push her and help her go in the direction that is expected of her for next year.

 

In addition, her project is not really relevant. I know that many "basic research" science investigations do not have obvious relevancy, but they at least could lead somewhere. For my son's project this year, who really cares if sand moves laterally on beaches? Except that the city council spends millions of dollars enriching nearby beaches that are being eroded. Whether fruit is more "electric" than vegis really just tells us that fruit has more acid in it, which would really be expected. So it just does not have that "unexpected" aspect to it, that interests people.

 

 

Yes, she and I have discussed this now, too, and I think she can see this as well. I even pointed out how she scored higher the previous year because of this factor. Her first year her project was to find which kind of sweetener yeast would like best. When I mentioned this, she brought up how bakers and food manufacturers could use that information to find cheaper ways to make their food products, or use this information to help manufacture diet versions of their products. But that this year's product, electric produce, wasn't applicable to the real world, because we can't take her information, grow a gigantic apple, and power our house with it.

 

 

For 5th grade, my ds's project took 8 weeks. Data collection alone took >20 hours, since he had to survey 28 slides, which each took 45 minutes. This year, 6th grade, he will be taking 15 to 20 measurements of sand movement at 2 different locations with 3 replications each. Each measurement cluster must occur on a different day depending on the tide table and wind speed, and each will take about 1.5 hours. I might add that the water is cooooool! I think you need to thinking bigger.

 

HTH

 

Ruth

 

 

 

 

Yes, everything you've written really helps tremendously. I think the challenge will be in coming up with a way to test whatever question/purpose she comes up with. For example - poison vs. venom, which is more toxic and which has more useful properties? We can't really test these. We'd be stuck mostly with research. I do want to encourage her to actually write people to ask for information in her research process. She's a little shy and doesn't want to interview people, but writing them should be helpful to her.

 

I"ve told her she should consider something in Zoology, since her biggest interests are animals. But she hasn't decided anything yet. She's got lots of time. I'd just like to get her started on something soon. She may do two projects before next year's fair and then choose one as it gets closer.

 

Thank you so much for talking me through this. I am determined to be useful to my kids so they can not just learn but be as successful as they want to be.

Edited April 4, 2012 by DawnL

[lewelma]

Her first year her project was to find which kind of sweetener yeast would like best. When I mentioned this, she brought up how bakers and food manufacturers could use that information to find cheaper ways to make their food products, or use this information to help manufacture diet versions of their products.

I can see why she won 2nd place for last year. That is a cool project.

 

I think the challenge will be in coming up with a way to test whatever question/purpose she comes up with. For example - poison vs. venom, which is more toxic and which has more useful properties? We can't really test these. We'd be stuck mostly with research.

Not all questions are answerable with current technology or within the financial constraints of the research facility (meaning your home:001_smile:). For example, Narwhals are incredibly hard to study because they live in the ice pack in the Arctic and flee from motor boats and helicopters. Maybe in the future, we will have silent engines or cheap submersibles, but for now there are constraints for studying the animal.

 

As for poison vs venom, I am not really clear which poisons and venoms she is interest in, but perhaps she could test their toxicity on meat, especially if you are looking at necrotizing venom.:tongue_smilie: But I would agree with you that a different project would be easier to study.

 

I do want to encourage her to actually write people to ask for information in her research process. She's a little shy and doesn't want to interview people, but writing them should be helpful to her.

This is a good goal, but definitely not required to do a science fair project.

 

I"ve told her she should consider something in Zoology, since her biggest interests are animals. But she hasn't decided anything yet. She's got lots of time. I'd just like to get her started on something soon. She may do two projects before next year's fair and then choose one as it gets closer.

If you give me some topics she is interested in, I can brainstorm a bunch of ideas to get her thinking.

 

Ruth

Edited April 4, 2012 by lewelma

[DawnL]

All she's come up with so far is she wonders if liquid can be on fire. She remembered how I told her about a river that was on fire because it was so dirty. This led her to wonder if other liquids could be on fire, whether they were dirty or not. But we agree that testing fire might not be the best choice.

 

After last year, she considered seeing what type of natural items, like salt, could preserve food the best. But we found the rules state that anything that would grow bacteria must be tested in an actual lab, so that was out.

 

I asked her what she might be interested in with animals and her answer was "EVERYTHING!" This is why I am thinking zoology would be good for her. She went on to tell me that "there is a lizard that shoots blood out of it's eye, and that Cheetahs can run 60 MPH, which is as fast as we go on the freeway. But it can only do that in short bursts."

 

She would have gone on telling me more animal facts, and probably did, but her brothers came running through with all their noise, requiring my attention, so I am not sure what else she said.

 

I asked her if she were interested in reptiles or flying creatures or marine animals, and she said all animals. We live very near Puget Sound, and the coast of the Pacific Ocean is maybe an hour away. We go there every summer and we wouldn't mind an excuse to go test things there. But probably if we did marine animals it would be something from Puget Sound.

 

I know we have the Enteroctopus Dofleini under the Narrows Bridge in Puget Sound. It's one of the largest octopus in the world. Also, Galloping Gertie was the original Narrows Bridge, but it was too unstable in the wind and eventually crashed into the Sound many, many years ago. It's still in the Sound, and is now home to many of our sea critters in the Sound.

 

This is stuff that I'm coming up with, though. ;)

 

The Science Fair Project book I have I bought after this year's science fair. It list actual science fair project ideas and the author suggests using these ideas as a starting point to come up with your own ideas.

[lewelma]

All she's come up with so far is she wonders if liquid can be on fire. She remembered how I told her about a river that was on fire because it was so dirty. This led her to wonder if other liquids could be on fire, whether they were dirty or not. But we agree that testing fire might not be the best choice.

 

I agree, not a great choice

 

After last year, she considered seeing what type of natural items, like salt, could preserve food the best. But we found the rules state that anything that would grow bacteria must be tested in an actual lab, so that was out.

 

interesting. Does this include fungus?

 

I asked her what she might be interested in with animals and her answer was "EVERYTHING!" This is why I am thinking zoology would be good for her. She went on to tell me that "there is a lizard that shoots blood out of it's eye, and that Cheetahs can run 60 MPH, which is as fast as we go on the freeway. But it can only do that in short bursts."

 

She needs to start thinking about what animals she has access to in her own environment. Squirrels? Birds? Bees? Spiders? etc. And ones that she can actually see and study, so probably not lizards even if they are in your area.

 

I asked her if she were interested in reptiles or flying creatures or marine animals, and she said all animals. We live very near Puget Sound, and the coast of the Pacific Ocean is maybe an hour away. We go there every summer and we wouldn't mind an excuse to go test things there. But probably if we did marine animals it would be something from Puget Sound.

 

Fish can be difficult because you can't really see or control them in their natural environment. So unless you want to study catfish in a barrel, fish are out. But what about the rocky intertidal zone? She could definitely look at sea anemones, star fish, limpets, sea urchins, etc.

 

I know we have the Enteroctopus Dofleini under the Narrows Bridge in Puget Sound. It's one of the largest octopus in the world. Also, Galloping Gertie was the original Narrows Bridge, but it was too unstable in the wind and eventually crashed into the Sound many, many years ago. It's still in the Sound, and is now home to many of our sea critters in the Sound.

 

Do you actually have walking access to this area? or do you need to scuba dive or use a boat etc? Can she actually see any octopuses? I assume that she would not have any equipment to study them remotely. You need to make a kid's project doable without lots and lots of adult help and expense.

 

The Science Fair Project book I have I bought after this year's science fair. It list actual science fair project ideas and the author suggests using these ideas as a starting point to come up with your own ideas.

 

Definitely look through this book just to get you thinking.

 

Here is a x-post from the High school board where I brainstormed a bunch of ideas. This child was also interested in biology, and these were her possible study sites:

 

fwiw, we live in near wetlands, swamp, and marshlands that we can get to on a weekly basis for a long project, or several times a week for a shorter project. We also have access to woods with a pond, a creek, various wildlife scat, and so on, but we can't get there on a weekly basis (but could be there for a week at a time). When the hunting's good, we have access to dead animals, :tongue_smilie:, but she has already begged for virtual dissections only. oh, and we could easily make room in the yard for a garden, terranium, whatever.

 

Ok, I will throw out a bunch of ideas and then you can narrow it down, and then I can give you some more details on just one or two projects.

 

Comparison projects are fun. How does the physical environment affect the diversity of fish (or insects, frogs, moss, flowers etc)? You just pick 2 types of environments to compare in the shade vs in the sun; or shallow vs deep; or closer to the ocean and tides vs further away with more fresh water. (then you replicate and have multiple sites within each category)

 

You can also just do a survey. What is the most common mushroom ? or tree or bird or insect or wildflower. Or draw a distribution and abundance map with how many of a type of organism in what locations within the area. If you have a microscope, you can collect water samples and survey the microscopic life. Or more advanced, you could study how trails affect the distribution of things like mushrooms or weed species because of people carrying the seeds/spores as they walk.

 

You could do a population dynamics project. How does weather affect the number of bees out collecting nectar? Or do different species of bee forage on different species of plants, or in different locations on the plant, or at different times in the day? or you can ask what affects the number of birds in a tree? or on a mud flat in an estuary?

 

You could study gardening. Which type of fertilizer promotes the best growth? How much do earth worms affect plant growth? Does the size of a seed influence its germination time or the rate of growth in the first few days?

 

You could also study how fast mould grows on different types of bread. Or how different storage methods retard mould growth.

 

You could also do more of an earth science project. You could dig a soil transect and compare soil layers in different locations (under trees vs in the grass). You could study the flow of water and how it affects the accumulation of sediment in your pond. These could be linked to biology by including the species in each location.

 

HTH

 

Ruth

[brownie]

It can be very hard to know you are identifying a good idea too. Lots of times things don't go as well as you expect or something unexpected turns up or things take more time than you planned on. Sometimes you have to revamp your project as you go to narrow or expand the focus so leaving lots of time is helpful.

 

It's all part of the process, but it can be frustrating. Sometimes you hit on something straightforward and clear cut and other times you run into nothing but frustration, confusion and roadblocks!

 

Brownie

[DawnL]

interesting. Does this include fungus?

 

I will definitely find out. I just remember looking things up and seeing it wouldn't work. I'll have to check the website.

 

 

 

She needs to start thinking about what animals she has access to in her own environment. Squirrels? Birds? Bees? Spiders? etc. And ones that she can actually see and study, so probably not lizards even if they are in your area.

 

 

 

Fish can be difficult because you can't really see or control them in their natural environment. So unless you want to study catfish in a barrel, fish are out. But what about the rocky intertidal zone? She could definitely look at sea anemones, star fish, limpets, sea urchins, etc.

 

I was actually starting to think something like this. I asked her today what she thought of tide pools. She said they are gross and cool at the same time :D (It made me remember when I showed the big kids some barnacles feeding in a tidepool and when they saw the little "arms" dart out and in again they both were disgusted LOL)

 

I asked her if she would be interested in maybe cataloging a tide pool, or maybe tide pools on a few different beaches, in an effort to come up with something she's interested in. We may do this. I'm trying to figure out if we should just do the closest beach with a tide pool that always seems to be there whenever we go, or if we really should do a few different beaches. I know we can go to the ocean, but I don't actually know of any tidepools there so we'd have to look around a bunch on the coast to find one.

 

 

 

 

Here is a x-post from the High school board where I brainstormed a bunch of ideas. This child was also interested in biology, and these were her possible study sites:

 

 

 

Ok, I will throw out a bunch of ideas and then you can narrow it down, and then I can give you some more details on just one or two projects.

 

Comparison projects are fun. How does the physical environment affect the diversity of fish (or insects, frogs, moss, flowers etc)? You just pick 2 types of environments to compare in the shade vs in the sun; or shallow vs deep; or closer to the ocean and tides vs further away with more fresh water. (then you replicate and have multiple sites within each category)

 

You can also just do a survey. What is the most common mushroom ? or tree or bird or insect or wildflower. Or draw a distribution and abundance map with how many of a type of organism in what locations within the area. If you have a microscope, you can collect water samples and survey the microscopic life. Or more advanced, you could study how trails affect the distribution of things like mushrooms or weed species because of people carrying the seeds/spores as they walk.

 

You could do a population dynamics project. How does weather affect the number of bees out collecting nectar? Or do different species of bee forage on different species of plants, or in different locations on the plant, or at different times in the day? or you can ask what affects the number of birds in a tree? or on a mud flat in an estuary?

 

You could study gardening. Which type of fertilizer promotes the best growth? How much do earth worms affect plant growth? Does the size of a seed influence its germination time or the rate of growth in the first few days?

 

You could also study how fast mould grows on different types of bread. Or how different storage methods retard mould growth.

 

You could also do more of an earth science project. You could dig a soil transect and compare soil layers in different locations (under trees vs in the grass). You could study the flow of water and how it affects the accumulation of sediment in your pond. These could be linked to biology by including the species in each location.

 

HTH

 

Ruth

 

 

This is really helpful. I so appreciate you brainstorming with me. I know my daughter will enjoy doing all this. Especially because it deals with critters, which she absolutely loves.

 

I've been thinking about the frogs, raccoons, possums, rabbits, and squirrels we have around here, too. But many we wouldn't be able to have full access to unless we trapped them, which we don't want to do. We have an abundance of slugs, including some incredibley large slugs, but I don't know she'd want to work with them.

 

I've got to get dinner together and visit my grandma in the hospital.

 

Thanks so much, Ruth, for talking me through this. :grouphug:

[DawnL]

It can be very hard to know you are identifying a good idea too. Lots of times things don't go as well as you expect or something unexpected turns up or things take more time than you planned on. Sometimes you have to revamp your project as you go to narrow or expand the focus so leaving lots of time is helpful.

 

It's all part of the process, but it can be frustrating. Sometimes you hit on something straightforward and clear cut and other times you run into nothing but frustration, confusion and roadblocks!

 

Brownie

 

Thanks, Brownie! :)

 

Hopefully she will be able to get her scientific juices flowing.

[Chez J]

I am excited to find this thread. Replying so I can subscribe.

 

I want to get my daughter into the science fair next year. She and I have agreed to take the summer as a huge chunk of time to work on it.

 

When I took her to view the science fair exhibit locally, I was VERY impressed with the caliber of the projects and the depth. We concluded that the key is a really great idea/project. The ones that didn't win seemed to be your run of the mill science experiments.

 

Going back to read the thread now. I'm sure I'll have questions.

[DawnL]

Here we do first the regional science fair and then the state science fair. They are close together, but last year they were the same weekend.

 

This year at the regional fair, I heard one parent who also had a 5th grader say, "Gee, next year I guess we'll get your project off the internet if you want to win." to her son. So she was apparently jealous of the very good projects that were there. Daphne won 3rd place at regional with her project, but just Honorable Mention at state.

 

The state science fair judges are notoriously easier judges than the regional science fair judges. I think this is largely because at regional they grade/award on the curve and at state they grade/award each project on their own merit.

 

What's a little odd though is that at regionals you are not allowed to have any models, props, or anything. You can have your display board, and your should have your science journal, and that's it. While at the state science fair you can certainly have models, etc in front of your display board. You just can't have any food, water, or anything living or dead.

 

Also, at regionals, my 3 kids and 1 other 5th grade girl were the only homeschoolers in the K-5 science fair. But the state science fair has a large number of homeschoolers. In fact, state has it's own homeschooler laison on the committee.

 

Not sure why I'm sharing all that, but Chez J's post reminded me of the mom's comment who was sitting behind us at the regional science fair. There were a lot of impressive projects in both science fairs, but most especially the state science fair. At the regional fair it seemed that all the impressive, serious projects were not only the projects that won, but also were the projects were the child intended to go on to state. You don't have to win a spot to go on state. You just sign up and go, but if you have a regional science fair in your area you must participate in that if you want to participate in state.

 

After getting only Honorable Mention at state, and comparing her project to the projects of her peers in her mind, this is a huge motivator for her. Not just that she loves science and she wants to learn, but that she wants to compete on the same level as her peers. The peers that did impressive science projects instead of your standard run of the mill project.

 

The regional fair is not too far from us, but the state science fair is an hour away. It's happened yearly for more than 50 years, but I never heard of it until I met the state homeschooler laison at the homeschool convention. My daughter asked me when we were on our way up to the state science fair on the second day if I would have participated if I'd known about it. I told her that I didn't think my parents would have taken me an hour away so I could enter :(

 

I also think that the kids with the most successful projects have a lot of support from their parents and I don't know my parents would have supported me well enough to participate, either.

 

I'm so thankful that I'm a homeschooling parent and that I have the opportunity to support my kids to acheive any goal they set for themselves.

[Ummto4]

Dawn and Ruth,

 

How do your children get an idea ? Do they come up with their own ideas, or do you suggest ideas ? I'm sure if I ask my children, they would answer, I don't know (will try this today ...).

 

Second, how do you find out about the regional and state science fair ? I've googled my city, but can only find the one for 7th grade up. There's another one for K-12, but it's part of Christian homeschool association, and we're not Christian.

[lewelma]

Second, how do you find out about the regional and state science fair ? I've googled my city, but can only find the one for 7th grade up. There's another one for K-12, but it's part of Christian homeschool association, and we're not Christian.

 

The regional fair is for 6th grade and up here. So this is the first year, my older son will be going to the regionals. The K-12 Homeschool Science Fair is run by me :001_smile:, and is open to all. When I started running the science fair we had 10 projects from 5 families, and 5 years later we had more than 100 projects and 300+ attending. Point being, you can always start your own, and it does not have to be big to be fun. We have time for viewing the posters, listening to presentations, and doing hands on science activities. The whole thing goes for about 3 hours and costs $7 per family for supplies or venue hire. So if you are excluded, get some other non-christian homeschoolers together and pick a venue (obviously small) and a date and make a science fair. If you get an e-mail list together, you can encourage each other and keep track of how the different projects are going. It is very motivational. And when it is small, it is very easy to organize.

 

How do your children get an idea ? Do they come up with their own ideas, or do you suggest ideas ? I'm sure if I ask my children, they would answer, I don't know (will try this today ...).

We do one field of science per year. This year it is earth science. After reading about it for 7 months, we make a list of all the topics they have read about. This year: astronomy (solar system, galaxies, light), geology (soil, crystals, rocks, weathering), oceanography (tides, beaches, plate tectonics, ocean currents, ocean life in different zones). Clearly some of these you cannot study as a kid: astronomy, plate tectonics, ocean currents, ocean life in deep sea/Arctic/etc. DS11 decided on beaches and tides and right away said he wanted to study sand movement. To narrow down so quickly was unusual for him, but this is his 6th year doing science fair projects. DS8 chose soil (even though I tried to get him into ocean life in the rocky intertidal).

 

From these broad topics, we spend 2 to 4 weeks exploring options. We get some books out of the library and do some little mini experiments and demos to gather interest. Their questions usually come from this mucking around. Then we create a hypothesis and design an experiment/observation, then start collecting data. I find that until you actually start doing something hands on about your topic, we can't think of any good questions. So with ds8 I spent some time brainstorming ideas with him about soil, but in the end we could not come up with a clear idea until we got outside and started digging and noticing and thinking. Then, he noticed the different soil layers, the vegetation, the slope of the land, the rock types, the bike trails, etc. For ds11 until we got to the beach and watched the waves, wind, and sand, we could not come up with a question.

 

This years project start ups have gone better than in years past, and I have written up this early phase here http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361740. I have also written up last years projects on post #47 and 61 in this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263107&page=5. For whatever reason, last year's projects were much more difficult to get going, so you might be interested to see how you can flounder and still come out the other side.

 

HTH

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited April 9, 2012 by lewelma

[DawnL]

Well, last year was our first year, and only my daughter, then a 4th grader, had a project. She had always wanted to do that old experiment where you put water, sugar, and yeast into an empty water bottle, put a balloon over the opening, and the reaction causes the balloon to expand. But this wasn't a testable question, so she decided to test which sweetener the yeast likes best.

 

This year, all three of my kids did projects. My 2nd grade son wasn't sure about a project, so he tested packing material by putting an egg in the middle of various matarials and throwing each package out a second story window. It's not original, but he wasn't one to pass up the opportunity to throw stuff out the window.

 

My kindergartener is young at age 5 and still doesn't understand the scientific process. But I still wanted him to get used to doing a science fair project. I tried to talk him into something relatively simple, such as testing if crickets prefer light or darkness, but he insisted he wanted to use "zooming cars". He loves cars :) So he tested to see how many books high he needed to build his race track to get Hot Wheels cars to jump over all eight of the stairs in our house. He didn't fully understand and he couldn't completely explain what he did and what it meant. He just knows he wants to do it again. :D I plan on doing simple experiments over the summer with him to help him have a better grasp on what he's doing and hopefully he'll be more successful next year.

 

But my 5th grader, this was her second year in the science fair. Again, she chose something she'd always wanted to try, which was make a potato clock, and then thought of a testable question in which she could use that concept. This time, though, it wasn't as well received, as you probably read earlier in this thread. She didn't receive many comments but all her ratings were just average and the few comments said, basically, that she did a great job but the subject has been well used. In other words, it's a well-known "whiz bang" experiment from a book and not something she had to research much. And after a couple of days consideration, I'm amazed that I didn't see this clearly as she was trying to pick out her science fair project in the first place.

 

So for next year, which would be April 2013, she has decided to get a huge head start. And she may wind up doing a couple of projects before then and then trying to decide which one she wants to make a presentation on. We haven't been sure where to start, but Ruth has been so helpful talking me through this.

 

Daphne is going to start with simply cataloging what she finds in a tide pool we often go to. We agree that we will likely visit tide pools on a few other beaches, too, to see what she finds. She will draw pictures of things, look up their scientific names, and I will encourage her to discover if pools are in the low, mid, or high tide zones, if she can determine that, how wide, long, and deep the tide pools are, and just everything we can think of. I am also going to try to look for a tide pool near where a river or creek empties into the Sound, if I can, and see if she can find any differences there. Although if we can find that, I'm wondering if we are more likely to find mud flats than tide pools. Just today we looked for the exact spot where the largest river around here empties into the Sound and found that while we can see it, the beach area is inaccessible because of the lumber mill and the Port equipment. My dad worked at the lumber mill for years so maybe I can work something out, but with the mill there, I doubt we'd find much, even if we did gain access.

 

The tide pool that we most often go to is very close to the old Asarco Smelting plant. So it's possible that that may have had an effect on the tide pool and all the life in the Sound right there.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM19AN_ASARCO_Inc_Tacoma_Washington

 

I haven't even mentioned it to Daphne yet, though. I don't want to overwhelm her. I just want her to do as much research as can and wants to, in order to help her find her exact science project. People still fish and crab off the docks right there so there are a lot of people who don't seem worried. We've watched the people as they pull the sea critters up and we haven't seen any mutants yet :D

 

Does my endless rambling help at all? ;) This is apparently going to be a long process for us, but my daughter especially loves science so I think this will be fun. Since I had all the kids this year, I dragged dh along with us to all the fairs, so he got to experience it all first hand. He keeps joking now that next year the kids are going to experiment with lasers and explosives. LOL He even suggested making their own nuclear bomb once. Yes, he's nuts but he is encouraging, which I love.

 

As for where to find the science fairs, the only reason I even know about the ones we participated in is because the homeschool laison has a booth at the biggest homeschool convention in the state every year. I'm so thankful she does! I know that it's sponsored by Intel. I don't know if that helps you at all. I do know, also, that the middle schoolers are eligible to be sent to a national science fair in Washington DC. I am not sure what it's called, though.

 

This is the link to the Washington State Science Fair, where we participated.

http://www.wssef.org/

 

Not sure if that will help, either, but I bet if you contact one of the board members and tell them what state you are in, they may be able to refer you to somewhere specific.

[Ummto4]

Thank you thank you ....

 

I think it's going to be exciting to try to do a real science project this or next year. This year's science has been a mismatch between Singapore, watching Bill Nye, some BFSU, and just reading various books. Obviously we have to go out more and 'notice' things. We're one hour from a couple of beaches, so I'm so not looking forward of doing a project at the beach. Wetland is also one hour away. But we have plenty of parks w/trails which we visit almost weekly, so we just have to keep a closer eye on things.

 

Off to read some more ....

Edited April 9, 2012 by mom2moon2

[Catherine]

My fifth grader's project his year was on muscle memory. One problem we had is figuring out a way to test it, since "muscle memory" is not a strictly scientific term, and his initial idea (testing people's ability to write when blindfolded vs. not blindfolded) didn't really test muscle memory.

 

We really had to cast around a bit to figure out a means of testing muscle memory, and in the end we came up with one, but by then it was too late to gather more than 30 subjects or so. It turns out he had more trouble asking people to do the experiment than I anticipated. I also was not at all prepared for the complete lack of any library references on this topic, to say nothing of references that would be usable by a 10 year old.

 

Still, the experience of doing "real science" was invaluable for my ds and he absolutely loved the whole project, which to be honest I did not anticipate.

[2_girls_mommy]

We have done the science fair 2 yrs in a row. Coming up with a question and a project is the hardest part. Ours does allow a non experimental option, which is really good for the younger crowd.

 

The first year we did it my youngest was 6. When I asked her what she wanted to do for a science fair project she said the difference between crocodiles and alligators. So I chose the non experimental option for her. It was more a big research project with a wonderful display board for her. But she loved it. It gave her an introduction into the science fair and a positive feeling about it. She gained a lot of confidence and practice with public speaking, not to mention she learned a LOT about her topic.

 

With my other dd who was 3rd grade last year and 4th this year, we have not had as much success. It seems to me because of our lack of good questions. But we will keep trying! It is really good for both of us to come out of our comfort zones!

[Chez J]

Not sure why I'm sharing all that, but Chez J's post reminded me of the mom's comment who was sitting behind us at the regional science fair. There were a lot of impressive projects in both science fairs, but most especially the state science fair. At the regional fair it seemed that all the impressive, serious projects were not only the projects that won, but also were the projects were the child intended to go on to state. You don't have to win a spot to go on state. You just sign up and go, but if you have a regional science fair in your area you must participate in that if you want to participate in state.

 

I have a comment on this part of your post. We ended up not going to the science fair due to some issues that prevented us from being able to complete a project.

 

However, when we were planning, I was emailing our state coordinator. He told me that we needed to go to a regional fair because the entrant will get feedback on the project. They want every entrant to have the same opportunities for feedback as all the others. He really encouraged me to find some other homeschool parents to evaluate her project before regionals so that she would have had feedback even before then. I guess you can refine some things between levels based on the feedback. :confused: