The Science Wars - anyone care to help me out?

[CLHCO]

I'm really sorry. This got a bit long.

 

I went to the CHEC conference today with a primary point of hunting down our science curriculum for high school. I thought it would be perfect because Dr. Wile of Apologia was speaking and Dr. Durell Dobbins of Beginnings Publishing would have a booth there, and happened to also be the one running the booth.

 

I had considered finishing Rainbow, year 2, as high school freshmen for my girls since it is technically a "junior high" program, not a "middle school" one, going from 7th to 9th in recommendation. I received and email with a paper Dr. Dobbins wrote saying his first year covers everything, including a lab, for what most schools teach as an introductory physical science course in the 9th grade and *most* of what is taught in the 10th for a basic biology in most schools, though he admits it's not ideal and the AP Biology they're currently writing will be for those looking at a more advanced high school course. He did say it is plenty good as an introduction to biology for 9th grade, especially if I add in the frog dissection, leaving time for that AP biology later if that's a science a child needs for college entry.

 

So, since they took the intro physical science in the 8th, which they did fantastic on their standardized testing in science after having only done half of it, an intro to biology would be great for 9th, leaving chemistry, advanced biology and perhaps, if they need it, a physics. I thought I was home free but wanted to check out Apologia and anything else I could scrounge up.

 

Dr. Wile made a variety of recommendations about science programs, since he was not to speak strictly on just his if he was there as one of the conference speakers. He thought Bob Jones and Abeka were pretty good but assumed the student had a science teacher available. I was very surprised to hear him comment that Spectrum Chemistry was great for a student not interested in college who just wanted the basics.

 

I spoke with Dr. Wile after the talk about the recommendations that Rainbow covers everything taught in most schools as an intro to physical science and biology up through the 9th grade or so. He disagreed commenting on how many things are missed, naming a few. The content just isn't beefy enough. He seemed to have the same view of Spectrum. Not beefy enough. Missing things.

 

So, my husband, the more sciency one between us, checked out Apologia. He walked away shaking his head saying it was over the top. I chatted next with Dr. Dobbins. My husband's thoughts on Apologia were exactly what prompted Dr. Dobbins to set up his program the way he did. He said the tendency is to make these really big, fat textbooks with lots of wordiness to the point where a kid can't really see the forest through all the trees. I (delicately or at least trying to be) mentioned a few of the charges made. He challenged anyone to say something isn't covered in his books. Sure enough, I checked with my daughters going through it as well as him on the very things Dr. Wile says are not in them and they are. They are just not in the same place or presented the same way as in Apologia.

 

However, they do not seem to cover things as deeply - or at least not as "wordy". It's concise and to the point. He focuses on less excessive information because the goal is to get youth thinking scientifically, something, he says, excessiveness will not necessarily get you to. He says he has experience with students successfully managing the CLEP with his chemistry and I know my daughters have done very well with Rainbow so far.

 

But I have to admit, the difference is a bit shocking. Even with the junior high level books the amount of text is far greater in Apologia.

 

Thoughts on this? I like Beginning Publishing and we will likely want to use the biology as an "intro" class (assuming more advanced AP study later) next year. I'd like to use Spectrum next in hopes that their biology is out in a couple years before they need to take it but I admit I am now hesitant as to which approach is best. I like the "less wordy" but is less wordy less content?

 

Decisions, decisions.

[Brenda in MA]

Personally, my sons and I enjoy the Rainbow series. I think the content is very good, and sometimes, less is more, IMHO. I did have my sons make flash cards of the bolded words when we used Rainbow, and we reviewed them several times a week to help them cement the major concepts.

 

My older son used Apologia's Chemistry text, and then took the SAT2 Chem Exam. I just assumed that the text would be adequate preparation for the exam because the college board website that a student should have a 1-year college prep chem course in preparation for the exam. After my son finished the Apologia book, we began preparing him for the exam by going through a Princeton Review prep book. I was aghast at the number of topics that the Apologia book didn't cover or didn't cover very deeply. Many of them were things that I know I had in high school chemistry I -- these were things like calculating pH using logarithms, that were definitely on the SAT2.

 

Others have said that if you do both the Wile Chem & Adv Chem together that you get a more complete course. I wish I had known that. I've never seen Beginning's Chemistry course, so I can't comment on its rigor. However, when my younger son gets to needing Chemistry, I'm definitely going to take a look at it because we enjoyed the style of Rainbow.

 

Since you and your dh spent so much time comparing the two programs, personally, I'd go with your gut feeling and pick the course of action that you're most comfortable with and that fits your students' needs and your teaching style.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[Cathy]

He is a scientist and his text is NOT a text--it does NOT presume a teacher who is lecturing and teaching the subject, and then the student goes home to read a bit, answer questions, etc.

 

Rather, Dr. Wile's program is a COURSE of study which is TAUGHT to the student IN the book--so that is why it is wordy, conversational, or "over the top" because it includes the "lecture" part in writing. (I suppose if you didn't want all that, you could get the book on CD and listen to the lectures, taking notes, and THEN read the thing!)

 

So I think volume wise, there is no comparison between Apologia and BJU/ABeka etc. They are comin' at it from different starting points!

 

MANY people choose Apologia and are satisfied with its scope and sequence. I suppose SOME content is IN later books so over time, it's "all good" as my girl says! For example, he doesn't cover anatomy while Abeka Biology does (which is huge!) We do Abeka's portion for 'health' class credit. Apologia's anatomy is in Gen Sci and later in Adv Biology. IF you do that course, you'd get it.

 

There's a LOT to know about each subject so planning a course of study, with advanced electives, will let the student get the basics and still pursue interests.

 

We DO use Apologia all the way through, and it is GREAT! (especially compared to the 'dark ages' when we began homeschooling 20 years ago and nothing like it was available!)

 

Cathy

[SusanAR]

Dh has a biology degree and I have a BS in nursing, so science is a favorite at our house. We used Rainbow science during the middle years, but I didn’t care for it because it was so brief (i.e. didn’t develop the topics) that I felt I was reading an abstract instead of a text. Last year my ds began Apologia biology, but switched to BJU after the first three modules because he plans to be a veterinarian and wanted the more rigorous course. He liked both; however, he thought BJU was a bit more ‘preachy’ (which was a turn off for him – and he is a PK!).

BJU does cover more, thus allowing for greater exposure, but the pace is much faster, and I’m not sure he retained any more than he would had he continued with Apologia. Still, I think he needs the exposure to the various topics since he plans to major in a science related field. So…our ‘plan’ is to cover BOTH the Apologia chemistry books next year and both physics texts the following year. The pace won’t be any faster than using the BJU books, but the conversational manner seems to help ’cement’ the material, imo.

FWIW, if you want your student to be exposed to more topics, but not necessarily be tested over all of them, you can order the DIVE cd’s for BJU biology (I only used them for a few virtual labs); the text lectures cover about the same amount of material as Apologia, and the tests are much easier.

Susan

[LynnG in Arizona]

I'll speak mainly to the chemistry issue.

 

We attended a convention several years ago and did the same thing you did, talking at length with both Apologia and Beginnings Publishing.

 

My DH is in the medical field, has a biology degree and biochemistry background, etc. He spent a long time looking at both programs and concluded that they were both very good programs. Different, but good.

 

We used Apologia Chemistry for DD-16 and will be using Spectrum Chemistry for DD-14, simply because she wants to take an Apologia break.

 

I must confess that I am getting a wee bit tired of hearing Dr. Wile sniff disdainfully at other programs. Yes, he's a doctor - but so is my husband - and frankly, each time my DH has investigated Dr. Wile's specific complaints about other curricula (whether Teaching Textbooks or Spectrum), he has found these complaints to be mostly unfounded.

 

HTH~

[CLHCO]

 

I must confess that I am getting a wee bit tired of hearing Dr. Wile sniff disdainfully at other programs. Yes, he's a doctor - but so is my husband - and frankly, each time my DH has investigated Dr. Wile's specific complaints about other curricula (whether Teaching Textbooks or Spectrum), he has found these complaints to be mostly unfounded.

 

HTH~

 

I really liked hearing him talk and I believe his science is probably a good one, and I think he is obviously a very intelligent man. I suppose it's fair for him to believe his is the best but some of his charges against Beginnings were false. Beginnings Publishing is also written by a doctor with a pretty resume too. They did cover everything in a more concise manner is all, it seemed. Perhaps they are too light but for the style of learning for my daughters, I believe less is more. My son is a bit different and we'll evaluate his needs when the time comes.

 

Thanks everyone. We've decided to go with the recommendations given to us by Beginnings. We'll do the biology, year 2, as a freshman intro class and just beef it up a bit with the dissection, etc. We'll proceed with Spectrum but we might do an Apologia to fill in one more if his more advanced biology is not out by the time they need it.

[74Heaven]

We loved Rainbow for two dtrs (one 5/6 and one 7/8); 7/9th we did Apologia Physical Science mostly because I didn't want to biology again so soon after doing in the previous year as part of Rainbow). 8/10th we did Apologia Biology.

 

Also, I plan to use Spectrum Chemistry with my dtrs when we do chemistry if I am not involved in a co op that chooses Apologia at that time. I will do Spectrum Chem specifically because Rainbow was such a solid jr high science course.

 

As far as Dr Dobbin's or any other claims that Rainbow teaches most of what a high school biology teaches, that seems a bit hard to believe. But as a foundational science course for jr high.

 

Btw, fyi, my other favorite homeschool curric is Shurley English :).

HTH

Lisaj

[CLHCO]

We loved Rainbow for two dtrs (one 5/6 and one 7/8); 7/9th we did Apologia Physical Science mostly because I didn't want to biology again so soon after doing in the previous year as part of Rainbow). 8/10th we did Apologia Biology.

 

Also, I plan to use Spectrum Chemistry with my dtrs when we do chemistry if I am not involved in a co op that chooses Apologia at that time. I will do Spectrum Chem specifically because Rainbow was such a solid jr high science course.

 

As far as Dr Dobbin's or any other claims that Rainbow teaches most of what a high school biology teaches, that seems a bit hard to believe. But as a foundational science course for jr high.

 

Btw, fyi, my other favorite homeschool curric is Shurley English :).

HTH

Lisaj

To be fair, Dobbins said it covers what many 9th grade programs list for a basic biology and some even for 10th grade, but he was very clear it was NOT an advanced high school study. They are writing the "advanced" high school one. He suggested using it only for the 9th grade and using the optional dissection to beef it up a bit, then completing the advanced biology in a later year. It should be out while my daughters are still in high school. He said it really wouldn't be as impressive if given it as a 10th grade biology course if college is a consideration, even though he did say it covers what many schools do for 10th grade biology. I think he feels homeschoolers shouldn't look like "many schools" though and recommended it no later than 9th grade.

 

If they take that then the AP Biology he's hoping to have finished within 2 years (their junior year, I hope) they should be covered.

 

He did seem to be looking at is as a foundational science, which is commonly still being given for 9th graders in either a form of physical science or a biology intro. It covers what I remember taking in high school biology and I was in the 10th grade. I don't remember my course being that detailed. It's not a case of having forgotten, it's more unfamiliarity from having never been exposed to it at all. I guess many public school science courses really aren't all that and more.

[CO MOM]

Ha! I had to laugh when I read your post because we must have been following you around doing the exact same thing! My husband, who is generally our science decision-maker even though we both have degrees in science areas, also liked the look of Beginnings/Rainbow over Apologia for our middle schooler, so that is the direction we are going. Our high schooler will probably be doing Spectrum Chemistry after 3 years of Apologia - it just looked more doable for her since she probably won't be pursuing science in college. It was interesting to have both of them there to talk to and compare.

 

Jane

[LoriM]

I'm probably not the best one to reply, but here goes...GRIN. We used college textbooks for high school science. I found that none of the available homeschool-marketed texts were exactly the scope and sequence I wanted to cover. That being said, I NEVER EVER EVER NEVER use a textbook or course "as is." Just like every other WTM textbook, I use it as the spine of the course, and then we do additional readings from real books, additional experimentation from real lab science, and additional research from real topics that we are interested in. The library is our friend, not to mention Barnes & Noble and Amazon. LOL.

 

So, either program would be a good starting place if you want to cover their scope & sequence. Also consider AP curriculum guides and bring in additional problems/topics as necessary.

 

Lori

[FloridaLisa]

I must confess that I am getting a wee bit tired of hearing Dr. Wile sniff disdainfully at other programs.

 

I had to chuckle at this Lynn. I wonder whether he looks disdainfully at other programs or just really believes in the text he wrote! I can imagine that if I wrote a series of textbooks, that I would have very strong reasons why I thought they were better than what else was on the market. Not that everyone else has to see it that way. But the author is never going to give an objective opinion.

 

I have both on my shelf. We've used Apologia so far because 1) it's been easy to implement at home; 2) it was recommended by the tutors we've used; and 3) now I'm used to it so it stays in the cycle. :001_smile: If you've looked at both programs, use the one that fits your teaching style. And as you said, your dc can always go deeper with a later AP bio course.

 

Gotta go as my 3-year-old is trying to click on all the smilies!

Lisa

[Tullia]

and not be overly concerned by other people's opinions. I really appreciate civil discussions and fact-based evaluations that you'll get from most people who post here.

 

I ALWAYS maintain my skepticism when listening to one author talk about another author's competing curriculum. Otherwise nice folks are apt to get carried away in such circumstances. A friend of mine refers to curriculum wars (whether between authors or their customers) as "clashes of mutual insecurity". :D