Khan Academy How Comprehensive?

[polishinggems]

Would it be possible to use Khan Academy as a complete math course? I'm asking primarily for my dd (15) who will be in 11th grade next year. She has used Chalkdust since pre-Algebra, is math minded, and does well with it. She really enjoys Khan Academy though and asked about using it as a stand alone as she thinks she would progress more quickly. (She often understands the concepts quickly enough that watching the Chalkdust videos isn't all that engaging for her.) I'd still have her use the Chalkdust test prep course.

 

Goal-wise, her top interest is ballet and her second interest is math. Science, bacteria primarily, are her third area of interst. Clearly, her math skills need to be strong.

 

I have other children who will be in Algebra I and Basic Math next year. I might have them start using Khan as a supplement for now.

[Trilliums]

I am wondering the same thing. :)

 

DS has been working through algebra 1 (Lial's), but keeps on gravitating to the Khan Academy videos. The algebra section has extensive video and practice sections. I feel that he should have a text book base and wish we had a text book aligned with the Khan content. Right now he is skipping around a lot on the videos; finding subjects that correlate with his text book. But sometimes those videos contain concepts not yet covered in his book, so he goes off and reviews those lessons on Khan. He is enjoying himself this way, and he is covering more content. But, I worry he will never have a definitive completion of Alg. 1.

[CaffeineDiary]

Excuse me while I step on my soapbox.

 

<steps on soapbox>

 

Khan Academy is the greatest thing since sliced bread. In a world of Wonder bread, it is a fine baguette. It is amazing, wonderful, fantastic, and every single kid in America should be using it for math practice.

 

The lessons themselves are straightforward, no nonsense, and (usually) clear. You can follow them from number lines all the way up to calculus. Note that the videos are only half the story: if you're just using the KA videos, you're doing it wrong. Rather, you need to be using them along with the 'knowledge map' of the site and the exercise modules to give your kids practice.

 

The modules will give the students as many problems as they need for practice (and then some). The students get immediate feedback as to whether their answer is right or wrong; and with every answer they can also as for hints which will take them through the problem step by step (I like using these hints even after solving a problem correctly to see if I used the same logic as the authors.) There's also a little bit of 'gamification' that goes on where kids get badges for doing certain things. This is like giving catnip to cats. Students love it. I love it too.

 

The thing I like the most about the videos is that they focus on skills but don't ignore the 'whys' either. So a typical series of videos for a given topic will consist of one introductory video that explains the 'why', which includes one or two examples, and then 3 or 4 (or more) videos that consist almost entirely of watching a large number of examples being worked. The focus on skills lets kids make progress even if they don't fully understand the whys, but the explanation was provided - and with a lot of algebraic math, the 'why' becomes clear with practice. The fact that you have to practice to 'advance' down the tree is invaluable here.

 

The videos themselves strike a tone which is hard to explain, but which I find charming: even when discussing the most advanced topics, when Sal Khan works through an example he will explain the actual steps he's doing, down to a level that you'd think would be below the level of the exercise. Somehow he manages to explain in a lesson on differentiation that (for example) he's subtracting a number from both sides, and therefore 5 minus 3 equals 2, without sounding like he's talking down to anyone. This is incredible. This, combined with the 'knowledge map', means that if the student finds themselves in deep water because they've advanced too far without really mastering an earlier concept, they know what they need to go back and practice more.

 

Students can have 'coaches'. Coaches get a simply stunning array of metrics giving them deep insight into what lessons their students have mastered and are struggling with. This drills down to the ability to see exactly which questions they got wrong. It is an absolutely intoxicating amount of data.

 

There are a few small problems with KA, which I'll enumerate here, but realize that in mentioning them I am TRYING to find something to complain about. On the whole I'm thrilled with it.

 

-There is some inconsistency between certain modules about whether they expect units for answers. This can lead to a little minor frustration (it's not that they expect units or don't expect them, but most of the modules don't expect them, and then occasionally they throw you one that will.)

-If your students focus on the exercises, they will occasionally miss a video that they really should watch. So you need to monitor what they're doing and direct their lesson plan.

-Some people might find how Sal works examples down to minutiae condescending. I personally love it, but tastes may vary.

-The focus on skills mean that although the 'whys' are presented, they're clearly in service of getting the problems done. So for the theory-minded this might be viewed as brusque or shallow. But in my experience it is easier for a student who has the skill to later learn the why then it is for a student who knows the why but doesn't have the skills to acquire the skills. Others may have different opinions, of course.

 

I don't think I would make Khan Academy "the only math materials" for any but the most strongly self-motivated of students. But as a supplement, this is awesome, awesome stuff, and it's better in a number of areas than a some of the other materials I've seen (see my snarky takedown of the "Life of Fred" calculus materials elsewhere in this forum.) If you made me choose between a student's only Calculus instruction being Life of Fred or Khan Academy, KA would win without even breaking a sweat.

 

<steps off of soapbox>

Edited February 29, 2012 by peterb

[CupOCoffee]

Excuse me while I step on my soapbox.

 

<steps on soapbox>

 

Khan Academy is the greatest thing since sliced bread. In a world of Wonder bread, it is a fine baguette. It is amazing, wonderful, fantastic, and every single kid in America should be using it for math practice.

 

The lessons themselves are straightforward, no nonsense, and (usually) clear. You can follow them from number lines all the way up to calculus. Note that the videos are only half the story: if you're just using the KA videos, you're doing it wrong. Rather, you need to be using them along with the 'knowledge map' of the site and the exercise modules to give your kids practice.

 

The modules will give the students as many problems as they need for practice (and then some). The students get immediate feedback as to whether their answer is right or wrong; and with every answer they can also as for hints which will take them through the problem step by step (I like using these hints even after solving a problem correctly to see if I used the same logic as the authors.) There's also a little bit of 'gamification' that goes on where kids get badges for doing certain things. This is like giving catnip to cats. Students love it. I love it too.

 

The thing I like the most about the videos is that they focus on skills but don't ignore the 'whys' either. So a typical series of videos for a given topic will consist of one introductory video that explains the 'why', which includes one or two examples, and then 3 or 4 (or more) videos that consist almost entirely of watching a large number of examples being worked. The focus on skills lets kids make progress even if they don't fully understand the whys, but the explanation was provided - and with a lot of algebraic math, the 'why' becomes clear with practice. The fact that you have to practice to 'advance' down the tree is invaluable here.

 

The videos themselves strike a tone which is hard to explain, but which I find charming: even when discussing the most advanced topics, when Sal Khan works through an example he will explain the actual steps he's doing, down to a level that you'd think would be below the level of the exercise. Somehow he manages to explain in a lesson on differentiation that (for example) he's subtracting a number from both sides, and therefore 5 minus 3 equals 2, without sounding like he's talking down to anyone. This is incredible. This, combined with the 'knowledge map', means that if the student finds themselves in deep water because they've advanced too far without really mastering an earlier concept, they know what they need to go back and practice more.

 

Students can have 'coaches'. Coaches get a simply stunning array of metrics giving them deep insight into what lessons their students have mastered and are struggling with. This drills down to the ability to see exactly which questions they got wrong. It is an absolutely intoxicating amount of data.

 

There are a few small problems with KA, which I'll enumerate here, but realize that in mentioning them I am TRYING to find something to complain about. On the whole I'm thrilled with it.

 

-There is some inconsistency between certain modules about whether they expect units for answers. This can lead to a little minor frustration (it's not that they expect units or don't expect them, but most of the modules don't expect them, and then occasionally they throw you one that will.)

-If your students focus on the exercises, they will occasionally miss a video that they really should watch. So you need to monitor what they're doing and direct their lesson plan.

-Some people might find how Sal works examples down to minutiae condescending. I personally love it, but tastes may vary.

-The focus on skills mean that although the 'whys' are presented, they're clearly in service of getting the problems done. So for the theory-minded this might be viewed as brusque or shallow. But in my experience it is easier for a student who has the skill to later learn the why then it is for a student who knows the why but doesn't have the skills to acquire the skills. Others may have different opinions, of course.

 

I don't think I would make Khan Academy "the only math materials" for any but the most strongly self-motivated of students. But as a supplement, this is awesome, awesome stuff, and it's better in a number of areas than a some of the other materials I've seen (see my snarky takedown of the "Life of Fred" calculus materials elsewhere in this forum.) If you made me choose between a student's only Calculus instruction being Life of Fred or Khan Academy, KA would win without even breaking a sweat.

 

<steps off of soapbox>

 

(make room for me on that soapbox please)

 

Exactly, 100%, totally, completely......everything said above! With a special note to the red area.

 

Khan is the FIRST math program where my 15 year old feels like he is a success!

 

Are there times when he may have to watch a video a few times over and make some mistakes on his practice problems? Yup. But I have seen his confidence RISE like never before since using Khan.

 

I realize that this doesn't actually answer your EXACT question. I take Sal at his word when he gives a course description that says that if you do all those Algebra modules you have completed Algebra I & II, just as I would believe any purchased curriculum titled "Algebra I" or "Algebra II".

 

 

~coffee~

[wapiti]

Can anyone comment on the quality of the instruction from a conceptual standpoint? I have only looked at a small portion of the videos, but the ones I saw seemed to lean more toward teaching procedure than teaching the underlying concept. Because I've looked at such a small portion, I'd like to hear others' opinions.

[bearnpurple]

We are planning on using BJU Geometry next year.....do you think we can use Khan Academy videos to help understand it better?

 

I can't afford $300 for the DVD/Distance Learning option but am not confident enough to solely teach Geometry.....Algebra is MY strong point!

 

I have been on the site but not really "studied" the site to see how it is laid out and how it works.

 

Thanks for any advice!

[HodgesSchool]

How did I not know about the Kahn knowledge map? Thanks so much to both of you!

[Trilliums]

Reading the positive comments has been nice. I agree. :)

 

"-Some people might find how Sal works examples down to minutiae condescending. I personally love it, but tastes may vary."

 

I consider this a useful aspect of the videos. Even if you already know the procedure, having it show step by step helps illustrate the entire thought process. I am amazed how he manages to include these details yet keep the videos short and productive.

 

From a conceptual standpoint, I'd say the concepts build up slowly across several videos. If you watch only one or two videos on a subject, you may get only a basic conceptual discussion of the topic. But, as you continue watching the modules, he tends to go back to the conceptual understanding and build upon it incrementally.

 

DS has watched Khan academy as well as AoPS pre-algebra videos on exponents. He thinks Sal's are easier to understand, but RR's are denser.

 

We love Khan academy, but I do struggle with how to use it. I thought you used to watch a video and when you went to *practice* you were directed immediately to problems covering the video section recently watched. Now when we go to practice, we get sent to the web where DS's progress is scattered across it in a seemingly unpredictable pattern. When I see this, I feel a mild panic start to rise in my chest. :D I know part of this is based on my school based thoughts that they should have a text book and work through it in a linear and orderly manner. My kids do not seem to operate that way though.

 

About geometry, my other son is using AoPS Geometry and he occasionally uses the Khan videos as a supplement. He uses them more often to learn about math concepts encountered outside of a text book. For example, he has had to use some trig in one of his classes and he watched the Khan videos to help him there (and came away describing Khan academy as "simply amazing").

[mom2denj]

We are using it for algebra 1 and we love it!

[Bang!Zoom!]

My DD uses ALEKS in conjunction with Khan, you can also weave other programs into it such as Singapore Math.

 

As we speak, dd sits to my right, playing around with the map and hits random functions to play with, she doesn't do it sequentially all the time and it's a bit unnerving when she self-learns this way.

 

I'm a chart girl you know, one thing after the other.

 

So if I have anything bad to say about Khan, it's that it holds the ability to go out of order - I'm not entirely comfortable with that, we've talked a million times about going in the mapped order, but she would rather randomize it for "fun".

 

So I don't know how your child thinks in this regard, whether the temptation to skip sequentially would be a problem or not. In that way, it's a little unnerving, but that's my problem honestly.

 

She enjoys her time on Khan and treats it rather like video game with all the fine addictions that can manifest in.

 

I'm glad we've used it. It's challenging for me as a person, and I can keep tabs on her as her coach as well.

 

It's a good tool.

[emubird]

Can anyone comment on the quality of the instruction from a conceptual standpoint? I have only looked at a small portion of the videos, but the ones I saw seemed to lean more toward teaching procedure than teaching the underlying concept. Because I've looked at such a small portion, I'd like to hear others' opinions.

 

My kids never clicked with Khan Academy. He just doesn't do things the way their minds work. You might be right that it's more procedure based and that's the problem. They can't do anything until they understand the reasoning behind it.

 

I've found that whenever my kids watched a Khan lecture, I had to go back and redo the explanations for them. It was mostly a waste of time.

 

The problem sets are nice (although a bit difficult to navigate), but we haven't gotten much use out of the lectures.

 

So although everyone raves about the site, there are folks who it just doesn't work for.

[Xander]

Would it be possible to use Khan Academy as a complete math course? I'm asking primarily for my dd (15) who will be in 11th grade next year.

 

The lessons themselves are straightforward, no nonsense, and (usually) clear. You can follow them from number lines all the way up to calculus. Note that the videos are only half the story: if you're just using the KA videos, you're doing it wrong. Rather, you need to be using them along with the 'knowledge map' of the site and the exercise modules to give your kids practice.

 

 

I agree with Peter about the exercises.

They might not help much in your case though. The problem being that the available exercises don't cover much 11th grade material. There are a few for differentiation and a couple for standard deviation, but that's about it so far.

 

They do keep adding new exercises though, so they might add more at that level over the coming months. The videos already go much further, so the exercises for integration, diff eqs, statistics, etc. are likely to appear at some point.

You might want to have an alternative planned in case they're not there when your daughter need them.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Xander

[HomeScholar]

My son used Khan as he was learning Saxon PreAlgebra and found it helpful but he didn't like how quickly "mastery" was achieved when working the exercises. He didn't feel like he had a real mastery so when we found IXL he started using that for extra practice. By the time he achieved mastery in IXL he felt he really had a good understanding.

 

For Algebra he tried Thinkwell but gave that up and is doing Khan with IXL and we ordered AoPS Intro to Algebra. He figures between the 3 he has all bases covered.

Edited March 1, 2012 by HomeScholar

[TXMary2]

We are about to finish up Algebra I with Teaching Textbooks, and move on to solely Khan Academy for Algebra II. Because ds has struggled with Algebra (although do really well now) I am going to have him start at the beginning of the Khan Algebra videos. We will use the knowledge map, watch the videos in order and work through multiple practice problems. The plan is to do two videos per day with exercises. I noticed not every video has a "Practice this Concept" button, but it is usually because the first video on that concept is introductory, then you watch the next video and THEN do practice problems.

 

I noticed there is a "Class Profile" where parents/teachers can view the stats on their student's progress and what they are doing. You each need a separate account but then you link them together. It is pretty darn cool!! In addition to Algebra, there are videos working through every SAT practice problem!!! I can't express how excited I am that this resource is FREE. I am going to sell our TT Algebra and be able to use the funds on other curriculum.

 

DS has already been using the videos to better understand concepts and he likes Sal Khan's teaching style much better than the TT guy. Now we will just be fully utilizing all the Khan offers for Algebra I an II.

[Trilliums]

DS has started doing the Khan exercises...from the very beginning! He progresses quickly and enjoys it even. I am a bit surprised by this development but he says he will enjoy having a filled in practice web. He also wants to make sure he doesn't have any gaps. He is still working through Alg videos and exercises as well. I just love how it motivated him. This is how he will spend a good portion of spring break.