calculus AB or BC for Dd

[moki4]

Dd is young (14yr old and 9th grade) and doing very well in precalculus (Larson). We are both wondering if she should enroll in AP calc AB or BC through PAhomeschoolers for September. Since she is only a freshman, she has lots of math yet to cover. I don't want to overwhelm her as she will also do one, maybe two other AP courses. Would it be advisable to use AP calc AB for 10th grade, and AP Cal BC for 11th? From what I have read there is the overlap of "B" and not sure if this would bore her, or give her a breather to concentrate on her other subjects. The other option would be to enroll in EPGY Calc A, B, C which covers 36 weeks. Not sure if this would prepare her for the AP exam.

Anyone have a DC in this situation? How did you plan the sequence, and were you happy with the end result?

Thank you in advance, :)

[8filltheheart]

My 10th grader is taking cal through AoPS. He will be taking the BC exam. He is taking it in conjunction w/AP chem. He is the only one of my students up to now that I would have allowed to take this approach as a 10th grader. He is highly motivated and a very strong student w/very specific personal goals. He plans on taking cal 3 and diffEQ next yr followed by linear alg and I have no idea what else. I honestly cannot keep up w/him.

 

I think this is really going to be a student/parent call. I know my other older kids, even our oldest who was strong of a student, wouldn't have done as well as our 10th grader. He had a serious girlfriend at the same age (who is now his wife ;) ) and he wasn't as self-disciplined in focusing on his school work.

[moki4]

Thanks 8fill,

Because my Dd is basically on the same track as your Dc, did you even consider taking AB one yr, then BC the next? The only positive I can see would be a lighter load, which in itself doesn't look to good to prospective colleges. I also saw an option to do AB the first yr, and then BC the following December. I am trying to see why a young student would choose AB, and not BC. Is there any other reason besides rigor?

She is very interested in science, and would either choose AP physics (not sure which level) or chemistry, to go along with either AP calc AB or BC.

She is also very bright, and can handle the load (I think 3 AP classes may be too much though).

Thanks again! Other opinions/experiences would be greatly appreciated!

[Teachin'Mine]

I'm not familiar with the PA Homeschooler classes or their pacing, but dd is 15yo and in 10th and using Saxon for Calculus. Saxon offers an older edition for just AB and the newer one for AB/BC which is what she chose to use. I would ask PAH what the usual time requirement is for each of their classes and let your daughter decide. :)

[8filltheheart]

Ds actually started in the PAH class and ended up dropping it and enrolling in the AoPS class instead. The PAH class will be an excellent fit for students that need/want videos, lots of notes, and lots of practice problems. It was taking ds about 1 1/2 hr- 2hrs/day (and for him it wasn't actually being spent doing the math.) The teacher would have them read sections in teh textbook and post pages and pages of teacher notes and have linked videos they were supposed to watch and then lots of practice problems.

 

Our ds is a slow reader and he really didn't need the notes and videos. However, he is also extremely conscientious and it bothered him not to do every single thing she assigned.

 

AoPS is a much better fit for his learning style. However, AoPS is not designed to the AP and he is having to prep himself on his own.

[Laura in CA]

I also saw an option to do AB the first yr, and then BC the following December.

 

PAH added this option after I asked if it was possible. Most students taking calculus are seniors, so they choose either AB or BC. I had young students (9th and 10th grade sons) so I thought we'd spread it out (as you are thinking) but then needed to know how, exactly, taking BC after AB would work.

 

I think this is really going to be a student/parent call.

 

:iagree: If your daughter is doing so well in precalc at age 14, that *probably* means she'd breeze through BC -- but only you know best. I thought I knew best, haha, and had signed up both of my kids for Calc AB through PA Homeschoolers. My older son (grade 10) decided to go to ps that year, and my younger son (13 at the time) did ONE WEEK of AB and asked to "upgrade" to BC. (The first week was a review of graphing straight lines, IIRC.) PAH let him; I paid the (small) difference; he worked hard for two weeks to catch up to the BC class (which had done the straight-line stuff over the summer); and the rest is history. My son is horrified (as am I) at the thought that he very nearly wasted almost an entire year, doing math at such a slow pace. Hindsight is 20/20. I didn't want to overwhelm him (as you say in what I've quoted below) but in this case, for this subject at least, he wasn't overwhelmed at all -- he breezed through, enjoying every minute, while the AB class would have been a slow torture. For him. Which I didn't realize at the time ...:001_huh:

 

Dd is young (14yr old and 9th grade) and doing very well in precalculus (Larson). We are both wondering if she should enroll in AP calc AB or BC through PAhomeschoolers for September. Since she is only a freshman, she has lots of math yet to cover. I don't want to overwhelm her as she will also do one, maybe two other AP courses. Would it be advisable to use AP calc AB for 10th grade, and AP Cal BC for 11th? From what I have read there is the overlap of "B" and not sure if this would bore her, or give her a breather to concentrate on her other subjects. The other option would be to enroll in EPGY Calc A, B, C which covers 36 weeks. Not sure if this would prepare her for the AP exam.

 

I think EPGY Calc A/B/C are supposed to prepare the student for the BC exam. I would *guess* that EPGY Calc A/B would align with the AB exam. I've heard mixed reviews of the EPGY courses -- that the quality of the course depends on which tutor you get.

 

HTH!

~Laura

 

 

Disclaimer: my ds14 is a TA this year (one of two TAs) for Mrs Gilleran's AP calculus courses (through PAH). She had an unprecedented number of kids sign up and needed help fielding questions, so she invited two former students to serve as TAs.

 

ETA: This is what my son emailed his math-camp friends (yes, math is his "thing") during the first week of the AB class: "Slope. We learned about slope." There's an unseen :glare: or two in there!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Laura in CA

[moki4]

OK, I am leaning towards AP Calc BC. I had Dd read the posts and she agrees. I have a silly question to Laura, why do you mention "practicing straight lines in the summer" for Calc BC? I am assuming you mean prep work for September start date! Ha! Just don't want to miss anything!!

I have heard various stories regarding EPGY also. So far we are very happy with PA Homeschoolers.

8Fill said that there is an enormous amount of notes/videos and such with pah. Gosh, Dd spends at least an hour making her own notes from which to refer. I hope this wont be a burden for her.

BTW, after Calc BC, what maths do your DC take? And, I assume it is university level math, how do you go about this? Online? AOPS?

:001_smile:

[Laura in CA]

I have a silly question to Laura, why do you mention "practicing straight lines in the summer" for Calc BC? I am assuming you mean prep work for September start date! Ha! Just don't want to miss anything!!

 

 

It's Chapter P in the Larson book, called (I just had a peek) "Functions and Their Graphs." It's not actually *all* straight lines -- there are some curves -- but it *does* talk about slope and y=mx+b (!). My son found it mind-numbing LOL -- he was impatient to get to the "good stuff." The AB class spent the first week of class (late August) going through this chapter; the BC class did it as a summer assignment and hit the ground running in late August with Chapter 1, Limits.

 

Yes, the PAH class did have a lot of teacher comments to wade through. My son never took ANY notes :glare: but he does have a good memory. In hindsight, AoPS calculus might have been more satisfying intellectually, but I have no complaints about the PAH class, and it's now given my son the opportunity to TA, which is turning out to be a great experience.

 

BTW, after Calc BC, what maths do your DC take? And, I assume it is university level math, how do you go about this? Online? AOPS?

:001_smile:

 

We don't have (easy) access to a 4-year college, so my son ended up taking multivariable and ODEs this year at the local CC (with an AWESOME teacher). We had looked at AoPS (he'll do Intermed. C&P this summer), a mentor, EPGY, etc., but the "live" teacher in a classroom has been a wonderful experience for him. (He's very social.) Moki, perhaps we live near each other (I'm in Northern CA too). PM me if you'd like more info about our CC. (Of course CA is a giant state ... :001_smile: ).

Edited January 10, 2012 by Laura in CA

[moki4]

I will pm you tomorrow. Getting late now!

[Teachin'Mine]

Moki I love the title you gave this thread!

 

With that in mind, as far as classes beyond Calculus AB and BC, there are

lots of choices if your dd does de at the cc. :)

[moki4]

Alphabet soup! We speak the same language here.

 

The closest cc is a 35 min drive. I've got 3 other littles to teach so not sure how feasible that would be. I know at that level she would benefit from having a professor. I imagine higher math to be more theoretical in which one would need to hear/see how others approach problems. I wish we had a university in our neighborhood!

[emubird]

One reason I would suggest doing a year of AB and then a year of BC is because it would give the student a chance to "re-do" calculus. I find that students do a lot of review of algebra over the course of their math career, but once they hit calculus, review seems to disappear. A lot of kids really benefit from re-doing the concepts in a second year. It cements the learning better.

 

Also, a lot of kids who do well in earlier math do tend to run into a wall at calculus. It's often because they really don't know the earlier math as well as they thought they did. They may have done well on tests, so they may think that they'll be bored with review of lines and whatnot, but then they get into the harder class and realize they really didn't have it down as well as they needed.

 

But it will depend on the specific class as to whether this is good advice or not. Some classes will spend forever on review, others won't.

 

You might also want to think about whether your daughter is really ready for calc. My experience has been that bright kids her age do very well in the math up to that point, but then can't keep up with the calc at the speed it's normally taught. But if they wait a year or two, they're able to do it just fine. This isn't true of all students (obviously), but you might want to think about it. It is possible that taking a year "off the track" and doing something like AP Statistics would be useful.

 

I've watched a number of kids (not just my own) get into calc a bit before they were ready. Some had to repeat it (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), but some gave up and went into college majors that would never require a calc course. And those kids who made it through the first time at an early age (and didn't have to repeat it for a grade), just seem not to have a grasp of the concepts quite as well as those equally bright kids who waited a year or two. I'm seeing this in college kids now that I work with.

 

There is always that whiz kid who defied these odds, but I think it is something, as the advisor and the parent, to consider.

 

Also, the individual teacher that a student gets makes a HUGE difference in how well calculus is understood. I haven't seen that this is as obvious in the earlier math. For others reading this thread (who aren't considering the 2 courses mentioned), I'll point out that Thinkwell has a nice series of calculus lectures. The associated problem sets are AWFUL (not correlated well, and they don't start out with easy problems to get the student thinking), but the lectures are worthwhile.

 

I've been trying Khan Academy, but I just don't think his lectures are terribly helpful. He tends to do things in ways my kids just don't understand. However, the problem sets for the math before calculus are pretty good (I haven't tried the ones for calc yet).

[moki4]

Yep, that was a consideration but I don't want to bore her with the overlap of AB calc. Also, if she did stats before calc I'd worry that precalculus skills would be lost (diminished) with a gap yr. I am leaning towards bc now. She is brilliant with math and I don't want to slow her down ( her decision). So far, precalculus is pretty easy for her. Thanks so much! Anymore experiences?

[Teachin'Mine]

Yep, that was a consideration but I don't want to bore her with the overlap of AB calc. Also, if she did stats before calc I'd worry that precalculus skills would be lost (diminished) with a gap yr. I am leaning towards bc now. She is brilliant with math and I don't want to slow her down ( her decision). So far, precalculus is pretty easy for her. Thanks so much! Anymore experiences?

 

That's pretty much the same thought process I went through last year at about this time. :) Dd had no interest in stopping to do stats and didn't want the slower calculus. I've already held her back some by adding in a year of formal geometry even though it's incorporated into her regular texts, and she's not interested in "losing" any more time. :tongue_smilie: I've always thought that when she begins the math sequence at cc she'd start with Calculus I so she gets used to learning from a lecture rather than a text, but she's not interested in repeating anything she's done already. So she'll take their test to see where she places and she'll go with that. My dd enjoyed precalculus too. :)

 

When she gets beyond what she can do at home, I think you'll find that the 35 minute trip will be well worth your time. The cc should have an area, maybe in a commons area or the library, where you can work with the others while she's in class.

[emubird]

We started with the intention of doing BC in one year, with the AP test at the end, but I (we) found that the material was just not getting absorbed as well as it should at that speed (at that age). So we slowed down. We had the option because we were not doing an outside class.

 

However, I'm not entirely sure that this would be noticed by the parent if the parent wasn't actually doing the teaching. And given that I work in a physics dept and see the problems kids have if they don't understand calculus very well, I have pretty high standards for what is an acceptable level of learning. So I was the one slowing us down. I wanted to be sure my daughter didn't just have the superficial knowledge that would get her through the AP test.

 

We started calculus about the same time as your daughter, and I found that slowing down was really very helpful. That's why I would tend to lean toward the slower track. But that was our experience.

 

My daughter did really well in math up to that point, needed to slow down to really get calculus down, and is now doing very well in her college math courses (at least in comparison to her class mates). So our experience was that taking things slow at this stage was really a good thing. It gave a lot more time for real understanding and absorption of the material.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that although, a lot of times, kids THINK they've done the material and will balk at doing a class or topic over again that happens to have the same name, the reality is they often could really benefit from the review. Many students aren't able to really recognize this, though. (Sometimes they'll really need the review, will end up in the next level class unprepared, but will be able to do all the review on the side on their own - but this will make the class a whole lot more time consuming, so the student ought to be aware that this can happen.)

[8filltheheart]

We started with the intention of doing BC in one year, with the AP test at the end, but I (we) found that the material was just not getting absorbed as well as it should at that speed (at that age). So we slowed down. We had the option because we were not doing an outside class.

 

However, I'm not entirely sure that this would be noticed by the parent if the parent wasn't actually doing the teaching. And given that I work in a physics dept and see the problems kids have if they don't understand calculus very well, I have pretty high standards for what is an acceptable level of learning. So I was the one slowing us down. I wanted to be sure my daughter didn't just have the superficial knowledge that would get her through the AP test.

 

We started calculus about the same time as your daughter, and I found that slowing down was really very helpful. That's why I would tend to lean toward the slower track. But that was our experience.

 

My daughter did really well in math up to that point, needed to slow down to really get calculus down, and is now doing very well in her college math courses (at least in comparison to her class mates). So our experience was that taking things slow at this stage was really a good thing. It gave a lot more time for real understanding and absorption of the material.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that although, a lot of times, kids THINK they've done the material and will balk at doing a class or topic over again that happens to have the same name, the reality is they often could really benefit from the review. Many students aren't able to really recognize this, though. (Sometimes they'll really need the review, will end up in the next level class unprepared, but will be able to do all the review on the side on their own - but this will make the class a whole lot more time consuming, so the student ought to be aware that this can happen.)

 

While I understand your POV, I think that it is going to be very individual dependent. I honestly have no idea what my ds is doing in math b/c he is so far beyond my mathematical abilities. However, I also know that he could not actually be doing the math he is doing w/o thoroughly understanding all of the concepts. I am confident in his abilities (and he is more confident in himself than I am! ;):lol:)

[moki4]

I have to agree with the last poster. Her ability is way beyond me, and we have a tutor who is keeping her on track. She incorporates lots of review after every 3 chapters. She likes this! Her percentage is 99/100 and her tutor Says she is her "top student". I just believe that she should keep going at her pace. She is interested in other subjects and I want her to have some time for self interest/study. Is there a huge differeence in intellectual ability when one advances to calculus, or is it a natural progression (or both)? I'm still heavily leaning toward ap calc bc. She also wants to take ap physics or chemistry. Thanks for the advice!

[kiana]

I really think that for a child who's working with a tutor, it's going to be easier to slow down than speed up -- if enrolled at a school I might err the other way,

 

Let's say you do BC. At Christmas, you're halfway through BC and ... it's not going so hot. You slow down, do loads of review, say "Well, we'll do AB instead" and finish AB.

 

Now let's say you do AB. At Christmas, ... she's bored, you're only halfway through AB -- speeding up to cover BC will be far more challenging.

[Teachin'Mine]

I really think that for a child who's working with a tutor, it's going to be easier to slow down than speed up -- if enrolled at a school I might err the other way,

 

Let's say you do BC. At Christmas, you're halfway through BC and ... it's not going so hot. You slow down, do loads of review, say "Well, we'll do AB instead" and finish AB.

 

Now let's say you do AB. At Christmas, ... she's bored, you're only halfway through AB -- speeding up to cover BC will be far more challenging.

 

I agree with Kiana's thinking on this.

 

Moki my dd found it to be a very natural transition from pre-calculus to calculus. With Saxon there was very little review, but what there was seemed to take it up a notch from last year in both content and pace. She's really enjoying calculus. It doesn't sound like your daughter should have any difficulty going with the BC route, and as was said, she can always slow down if need be.