laughing lioness Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (x-posted to high school and adult learning board). How does dyscalculia manifest in older teens/adults regarding reasoning, cause and effect, memory, ability to get jokes, ability to take another person's perspective, accountability, making plans, follow through? Does a person with this have the ability to understand cause and effect? If not, how do you hold them to any sort of accountability with what happened, their effect on people, memory, plans, time-line, etc. Any perspective, words of encouragement, irl examples would be most apprectiated? I am :huh::banghead::crying: right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Good morning Laughing! I've read your blog a little bit, but I didn't realize you had been having these problems. Which dc is this, and have they been evaluated by a neuropsych? The long and short of it, as they replied to you on the hs board, is that you've lumped a bunch of things together and probably don't have the right (or only) diagnosis. So, honestly, that is where I would start. Stop torturing yourself and just get the eval. I did, and it was the GREATEST THING EVER. Find a neuropsych you really like. Ignore the label (which is loaded and gets your mind to whirling with opinions, prejudice, etc.), and just listen to the FACTS of the testing. A lot of people on the boards here are frustrated by the DSM (the thing they use to code and make diagnoses), because so many of the diagnoses overlap. But, no matter how you feel about the labels themselves, the TESTING is so helpful. You need answers on working memory, executive function, etc. and how this dc's brain actually works. The testing will tell you that. And if you happen to get a gem like the man I found, they'll even go through school stuff and tell you how to APPLY the info. He spent two hours with us, answering my questions, dh's questions. So yes, you're probably missing some stuff. You're seeing the symptoms right, but whether they put ADHD or aspergers or whatever on it is a matter of degree and the precise mix. Get the evals. As for what to do in the meantime? Well start reading about executive function (which is the bulk of what you're describing). There are some really good books on it. Anything by Halloway (Driven to Distraction, Delivered from Distraction), Smart by Scattered, No Mind Left Behind, Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World. So executive function (EF) is the term you're looking for. Nan in Mass has a lot of good posts on it too and there have been quite few book lists on the SN boards here. Oh, and welcome to the SN board. It's a nice play, and we don't bite. It's nice to get in a place where you can be very bright and very quirky (frustratingly so) at the same time and have somebody understand. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I have it and posted on your other thread, bc I don't normally play in the SN forum. :) To the best of my knowledge, I don't have any other dx issues and no others were ever suggested when I was in school. I would also suggest it depends on how severe the dyscalcula is in the individual and how they try to cope with it. Do they have ADHD or is it a chicken/egg scenario from their reaction to coping with dyscalcula? I am a rather forceful determined type of person who never had much help, so by necessity and inclination - I developed lots of over compensating strategies to cope with what I then viewed as my "math stupidity". But I can easily imagine if it had been worse or I had a different personality, that instead I might not have bothered to over compensate. It can be exhausting and when I was younger I often felt disheartened and felt it wasn't worth it. I propose a child frustrated at every turn by dyscalcula might present as ADHD. Especially as a teen, because frankly most teens struggle some with developing those independent skills of time management and looking at the bigger picture and frustrations. Heck, the board is full of threads about adults who struggle with time management, schedules, and global thinking. So it can be hard to know if this is even more than a typical teen issue. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenjenn Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) How does dyscalculia manifest in older teens/adults regarding reasoning, cause and effect, memory, ability to get jokes, ability to take another person's perspective, accountability, making plans, follow through? Well, I'm not 100% sure, but suspect my husband has dyscalculia. He is dyslexic, and struggled significantly with early math. When he finally made it to algebra and could use a calculator, he started having astounding success. He graduated from a prestigious university cum laude in physics, has a career as a successful engineer, and now holds a master's degree in engineering, and works on the R&D end of engineering (so he's not a cog in the machine engineer; he develops brand new technology.) But don't ask him to read an analog clock, calculate a tip quickly, or remember random numbers (like dates or phone numbers). He loves doing things like working with wood, but he has to be extremely careful with measurements and such, because it is easy for him to make mistakes when working with simple numbers. He explains that it's not actually difficult for him to calculate; it's just hard for him to hold a *number* in his head accurately, even if it's written down in front of him sometimes. My eldest daughter seems to have the exact same problem. I can ask "What is 7+3" and she'll say "9", and I'll correct her and she'll think, and say "7+2 is 9? What am I doing wrong?" it's like she has a hard time holding the "3" in her head for even a the few seconds it takes to answer. DH says he totally relates. Yet, DH is highly mathematically proficient. For professional and academic purposes, works strictly in variables as much as possible, only plugging in numbers when he has no choice, and at that point, uses a calculator, and repetitively checks the final result. Is that dyscalculia? I have no idea. But it's interesting and unusual. As for the social aspect, what you are expressing concerns about sounds more like an Aspberger's concern than a dyscalculia concern? My husband doesn't have issues with any of the things you mention, though people who do not know him well are completely blown away by his sense of humor when it comes out.. they say they do not expect it, that he seems very dry, vanilla, and impersonal initially, and so when he says something witty or hilarious, it completely catches people off guard. I don't see it, but then I know him intimately, but that is how almost *everyone* who meets him reacts as they get to know him. Edited January 7, 2012 by zenjenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Zennjenn, the stuff you described in your dh is processing speed and working memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenjenn Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I don't know. Maybe. His memory is in some ways WAY better than mine, but in other ways, it is pathetic. If it is something with a lot of context around it, he remembers is and in great detail, even the contents of a book he read or a class he took twenty years ago. His mother's birthday? Not so much. And not for lack of trying. :D Eldest DD is the same exact way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I don't know. Maybe. His memory is in some ways WAY better than mine, but in other ways, it is pathetic. If it is something with a lot of context around it, he remembers is and in great detail, even the contents of a book he read or a class he took twenty years ago. His mother's birthday? Not so much. And not for lack of trying. :D Eldest DD is the same exact way. It is not dyscalcula. I'm certain. So certain I think it's ridiculous to compare that to even mild dyscalcula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Dyslexics will also often have working memory issues, and processing speed issues are just a given. Working memory is tested with things like digit spans or when you do dictation of lengthy sentences. Or try handing them something to do while they do the task and see if they get flustered at a certain length. Then you're seeing the ability to self-regulate their processing as they try to draw on their working memory. EF (executive function) is the secretary portion of the brain. It controls all sorts of things. Yes, people with these problems tend to be very creative and inventive. Have you read DA (Dyslexic Advantage) yet? When you actually find out what's *wrong*, then you can do something about it. You can actually work on working memory (games, software, etc.), and there are things you can do to nudge EF. It's the value of the evals, finding getting some stats and identification of the actual processing and brain issues rather than being left with these vague stabs in the dark and DSM labels that tell you nothing. DA explains why dyslexics tend to bog down with processing speed btw. It has to do with their brain structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenjenn Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) t is not dyscalcula. I'm certain. So certain I think it's ridiculous to compare that to even mild dyscalcula. Ridiculous? He's a college-educated adult professional. If you had talked to him, his parents his teachers before about the age of 14, and a little beyond, there was a LOT of pain and struggling. He was even "diagnosed" as mildly retarded by a foolish teacher when he was in Kindergarten. He probably wouldn't have even succeeded as much as he did without parents and teachers who really went outside the box and went to bat for him and believed in his potential. (For example, high school science and math teachers that went around rules to let him excel and ultimately take the Calculus AP as a senior even though he went into high school "behind" in math & science. But, he had passion and growing strengths and these teachers worked with him.) Someone asked how those issues manifest in adults. I can't know for sure because my husband is almost 40 and at the time his mother had to fight to get schools to even acknowledge dyslexia existed, so he did not have the benefit of knowing much about his disabilities. But he definitely had them, and learned to manage his life, develop alternate study skills, and ultimately succeed. I was just sharing my experiences with an *adult* who definitely had some set of presumably related yet vaguely-diagnosed (at the time) learning disabilities. Edited January 7, 2012 by zenjenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm confused, are you thinking someone called your comments ridiculous? My dh is actually in a very similar situation. He was not an astounding student at all in school, got through with great effort, had to do remedial classes in engineering school. Once he got to the hands-on, application part of the engineering classes the last few years he was AWESOME. So I *totally* get what you're talking about, and no one doubts you. We're just saying you don't have the right labels yet. And yes, Fletcher (book title I've forgotten) says that dyslexia, ADHD, etc. all used to be lumped into one grand diagnosis of "minimal brain dysfunction." Gotta love medical labels, eh? Spit on 'em all. You ought to read "The Dyslexic Advantage" by the Eides. You'd love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenjenn Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Sorry Elizabeth, we cross-posted. I was responding to Martha's comment. I will check out that book when I get a chance. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (x-posted to high school and adult learning board). How does dyscalculia manifest in older teens/adults regarding reasoning, cause and effect, memory, ability to get jokes, ability to take another person's perspective, accountability, making plans, follow through? Does a person with this have the ability to understand cause and effect? If not, how do you hold them to any sort of accountability with what happened, their effect on people, memory, plans, time-line, etc. Any perspective, words of encouragement, irl examples would be most apprectiated? I am :huh::banghead::crying: right now. If there are also issues with motor skills, it is quite possible that you are dealing with nonverbal learning disability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 It's my oldest. Dh is a psych and did years of disabilities testing for years- long story short, we missed it. We'll be talking more about a neropsych eval. I've done a very wee bit of research today and think it's more an abstract reasoning ld. I don't want to go into great detail on a public forum but where do I start. I am so greatly discouraged- on several levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 If there are also issues with motor skills, it is quite possible that you are dealing with nonverbal learning disability. No motor issues. She is conversant in 3 other languages. Her language abilities are quite high. It's the reasoning and causality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Don't beat yourself up. Might be that her strengths all these have covered the problems and mad them hard to identify. Find the best neuropsych with a few hours drive and take the plunge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 OhE- thank-you. When we talked with her about it she was visibly relieved. She actually admitted that some of her classes are really difficult for her to follow---totally explaining the huge disparity in her grades (dean's list, then several D's). She's flying to the midwest this week but I'm going to call a friend of mine there and find a good neuropsych and she if she is willing to go. My whole paradigm about our interactions/ her abilities, my expectations is reeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Lisa, with that bit of extra information, I think you need to do some more looking at things like auditory processing as well. I'm guessing it's the money aspect of the whole college thing that is making this so stressful? Maybe she can schedule just the classes that are going well while she figures out what's going on? A neuropysch can take 1-2 months to get into then more weeks till you get the results. It's not like she's going to get any fast answers. The Eides have a really good book, the Misdiagnosed Child, that hits lots of categories of problems. Also, has she had a general check-up? Is the trouble she's having unusual to her, not consistent with her previous experience? When she says they're hard to follow, it could be something totally different like brain fog from low thyroid or fatigue from mono. It's not like LD's are the only answer. Nuts, it can even be more uncommon things like an unrecognized sensitivity to something environmental like EMF (power lines near the buildings) or wifi or needing new glasses. Did she do any comparable work at home to help you differentiate whether the issue is new or has been there all along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) (x-posted to high school and adult learning board). How does dyscalculia manifest in older teens/adults regarding reasoning, cause and effect, memory, ability to get jokes, ability to take another person's perspective, accountability, making plans, follow through? Does a person with this have the ability to understand cause and effect? If not, how do you hold them to any sort of accountability with what happened, their effect on people, memory, plans, time-line, etc. Any perspective, words of encouragement, irl examples would be most apprectiated? I am :huh::banghead::crying: right now. Lisa, In my non-professional opinion dyscalculic students have a lot of the same problems as dyslexic, just with math. Some things my kids do: completely forget how to do something they already know how to do. Then the next day not have any problem doing that same thing like it was old hat. If they are having a bad day you can back down to easier concepts they should also know and they will blank on that too. It is the panic setting in: I know I should know this, but I can't remember, why can't I remember?!?! I once got my 2nd dd all the way back to what is 1+1 and she couldn't answer because she was panicking so badly. On these days you put it away, walk away and start over tomorrow. They will do all the 7x4 problems on a worksheet as 21. Switch between addition and multiplication when doing factoring (I think partly because the programs I use don't have you write out the symbols). I could go on but I won't. I find that dyslexic/dyscalculic can be very artistic/creative but can also be very concrete and literal at the same time. Not getting jokes is very concrete. I also find that they tend to be developmentally delayed all the way around. In talking with several adult dyslexics online we all agreed that we didn't come into many of our gifts until our 20's. My analytical skills really started kicking in around my mid 20's. Much of what you are describing might be ADD, ADHD or just a developmental delay in being able to see cause and effect and such. Though I do find that with my kids and myself that if you directly teach the relationship we can then see and understand it. We just don't easily go there ourselves sometimes. Though I still have times as an adult where I just don't connect the dots because it doesn't occur to me. I am running on other information that is overriding any need to question what I already know and doesn't allow me to see it. When someone finally comes in and pints out the obvious I can't believe I didn't see it myself. Luckily those times are not that often at my age. I am personally really good at seeing other people's perspective...empathy is one of my gifts, but much of what you are describing could fall under Non Verbal Learning Disorder. I have one child who has many of these issues and the biggest way it plagues her is she doesn't change tone much. Makes it hard to tell when she is joking, so everyone takes it seriously and gets offended at her. Makes it hard because I love sarcasm and so does she, but everyone takes her seriously because of her tone. Everyone knows I am joking because of my tone. Now I am working with her and teaching her how to completely change her tone when joking. Heather Edited January 8, 2012 by siloam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 No motor issues. She is conversant in 3 other languages. Her language abilities are quite high. It's the reasoning and causality. You still might want to check it out. A lot of the profile fits and you might find helpful strategies on sites for nonverbal learning disability even if she doesn't have the diagnosis. (The language abilities are often very high except for things like getting jokes, sarcasm etc. Hence the term "nonverbal".) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Thanks for all of the info. I have lots to think about and research. The biggest issue for me right now is kind of reshuffling how I'm thinking about our relationship, wondering what I can expect from her, etc. I feel kind of like the rug has been pulled out from under me. How do I think of her, what do I expect from her, what is o.k. to let slide, what can she be held accountable for? She's had some serious interpersonal struggles the past 2 years, but it's always "their" fault. Trying to talk with her about some of what seem like obvious issues (to dh, sibs and I) gets nowhere...just lots of defensivenss, telling us we are "so hard on her" "mean," etc. Oy vey. I feel at a real, huge loss here. She wants lots of sympathy but no input. What is my role? And what bounderies are reasonable? there is lots of drama, and honestly, I'm maxed- I'm still homeschooling, 4 other kids live at home, we are re-building a house, I've had tremendous loss the last 2 years, etc. I'm not sure how much of it is LD and how much of it is personality. We have 2 other female relatives with the same spectrum of issues -one is seriously disabled (interpersonally, vocationally, etc) and one is high functioning but VERY oppositional, to the point of defiant. Could this be compensating for LD? Could this be PD coupled with LD? She just got diagnosed with low thyroid (in my family) and has been really sick the past 2 years. Actually one night this break, dh and I went to bed discussing the possibility of maybe she'd had a brain injury or something. I mean, it was like she'd had a personality change. And she's not doing drugs. (seriously). Also, we've tried for years to give her "helps" in areas like writing down dates and times in a day-timer or calendar but she refuses proudly (it seems like pride- she "won't end up like us!" - so is that because we've suggested it or because she can't organize herself to do so? Heather- I have an auditory processing disorder and I agree with you about the analytic skills kicking in later. But what with an abstract reasoning disorder. Does logic ever apply? Thanks for the kind words. It was a rough Xmas- not with conflict but trying to get my brain wrapped around this. Edited January 13, 2012 by laughing lioness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The first thing I thought when I read your reply is that you ought to get her some social skills classes. Seriously. You said the things were obvious, and they're NOT to people who miss social cues. I took a workshop on interpersonal communication that showed me a LOT I hadn't gotten before. You have to make things explicit. So is she on thyroid meds now? Low thyroid causes all kinds of symptoms. Many people do better on Armour (pig thyroid) or a similar product (Westhroid, etc.) rather than just synthroid that only has one of the thyroid hormones. She can also eat a salad every day and consider taking kelp. I'm not sure you should take kelp if you have antibodies (Hashimotos), but as long as it's just run of the mill low thyroid, she can consider it. I've taken it for years and was able to get off my thyroid meds doing just that (kelp and a daily, large, fresh salad). Hope she gets to feeling better soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Also, we've tried for years to give her "helps" in areas like writing down dates and times in a day-timer or calendar but she refuses proudly (it seems like pride- she "won't end up like us!" - so is that because we've suggested it or because she can't organize herself to do so? Heather- I have an auditory processing disorder and I agree with you about the analytic skills kicking in later. But what with an abstract reasoning disorder. Does logic ever apply? I know I have had times where I have personally not been able to see the forest for the trees. The only example I can think of is when I was younger helping with some accounting at a job I had. The gal who ran it told me that you always auto apply with this one customer because they always pay in full. I did what she said. The account ended up a mess because they had two different people paying bills and one was taking our discount on the total invoice (including shipping charges) and the other was correctly only taking the discount on merchandise. Our system was only giving them a discount on merchandise, so their account quickly started to fall behind. I didn't think to question it because, 1. I had been told not to and 2. because I figured the balance was due to new charges put in....and I didn't actually see an account view when I entered payments to see that the account wasn't coming to zero and 3. if the company was doing it wrong then that meant the current bookeeper I was filling in for was hand adjusting....allowing them the extra discount on shipping just to balance things. Needless to say the owner was furious with both of us. Me for not questioning things and allowing the account to become an absolute mess (though I did end up going though it by hand and fixing it before she got back), and her for having allowed the extra discount. After the fact I couldn't believe I didn't question it...but I was only like a two week cover and she had been so adamant this was the way it was done. I can't think of any more recent examples but this sort of dua things do happen...not all the time, once a year kinda thing. Once someone points out the situation to me I can't believe I didn't see it, but before it was specifically pointed out it was like it didn't exist. Drives me nuts. But I am really empathetic, so I don't become defensive. It would be more difficult if I also became defensive. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Hi there, This is my 3rd posting and I feel like I'm sticking my neck out a bit. My DS is 12 yo and was diagnosed gifted with maths/handwriting/reading disorder. A 55 point discrepancy exists between his Verbal comprehension and Processing Speed (WISC-IV)....Not certain any of this info is relevant. Anyho... DS is highly empathetic and easy going. He totally understands cause and effect. He doesn't seem to suffer in the humor department. He tells jokes and is extremely funny. I understand that some kids with LDs suffer in the friends department. DS has many friends because he uses humor so much. He's loyal and a defender too. He's been known to come to the defense of others without knowing the full story. I suppose that makes him impulsive to a degree, though I wouldn't generally label him that way. DS is extremely forgetful, messy, and doesn't manage his time well. He transposes numbers while copying. We use timers a lot. He is not diagnosed ADD, but exhibits many of the tendencies. I use the book "ADD Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life" to help us keep on track. I find the book's recommendations to be extremely helpful and easy to implement. As I understand it, all teenagers and young adults have difficulty understanding long term consequences as their brains are not fully developed. They are me-centered and ruled by their emotions until the brains develops at about age 24. A bit about dyscalculia: DS memorized Psalm 150 as a 6 yo, but still pauses to calculate 1 X 2. Dyscalculia is crazy to me. It's easy for me to look at DS and think that he's pulling my leg with math problems. I read a book called "How the Brain Learns Math" by Sousa to get a real handle on math, and the book has changed my attitude about teaching and learning considerably. I was advised by another Mom to remember the 3 Ps when dealing with my son. The 3 Ps are prayer, persistence, and perspective. I wish you peace and as you and your family choose a path. Blessings,Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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