Dyscalculia in older students (I need a little help) xpost

[laughing lioness]

(x-posted to special needs board).

 

How does dyscalculia manifest in older teens/adults regarding reasoning, cause and effect, memory, ability to get jokes, ability to take another person's perspective, accountability, making plans, follow through?

 

Does a person with this have the ability to understand cause and effect? If not, how do you hold them to any sort of accountability with what happened, their effect on people, memory, plans, time-line, etc.

 

Any perspective, words of encouragement, irl examples would be most apprectiated? I am :huh::banghead::crying: right now.

[Murphy101]

(x-posted to special needs board).

 

How does dyscalculia manifest in older teens/adults regarding reasoning, cause and effect, memory, ability to get jokes, ability to take another person's perspective, accountability, making plans, follow through?

 

Does a person with this have the ability to understand cause and effect? If not, how do you hold them to any sort of accountability with what happened, their effect on people, memory, plans, time-line, etc.

 

Any perspective, words of encouragement, irl examples would be most apprectiated? I am :huh::banghead::crying: right now.

 

 

:confused: What in the world? I have dyscalculia and it has nothing whatsoever to do with my ability to understand cause/effect, get jokes, make plans, follow through or any of that. Goodness, if anything I am logical to a fault and a bit OCD about planning! LOL

[AngieW in Texas]

Dyscalculia is just related to math.

 

It's possible that you are seeing effects of Asperger's or executive function disorder. Sometimes these are not diagnosed until the teens.

 

My middle dd was obviously on the spectrum from infanthood. My oldest was obviously ADD, but the "H" part and the Asperger's didn't become obvious until she was a teen.

[klmama]

It sounds like there is more to it than just dyscalculia. Perhaps mild Asperger's? (The not getting jokes and not being able to see others' perspectives makes me think of that.) Maybe ADD/ADHD?

 

FWIW, I know someone who has dyscalculia and ADHD. As a child he had several of the problems you mentioned, but they improved with ADHD meds. With meds he learned how handle himself, and as an adult he doesn't take them anymore. He has a detail-oriented, people-oriented job, and he is very successful and well-loved in his community. He still has dyscalculia, but no social issues. They were all ADHD-related.

[Murphy101]

I went looking for "symptoms" and found this. I'll put my personal experience in bold.

 

Symptoms

 

This symptom list is from http://www.dyscalculia.org/

 

Normal or accelerated language acquisition: verbal, reading, writing. Poetic ability. Good visual memory for the printed word. Good in the areas of science (until a level requiring higher math skills is reached), geometry (figures with logic not formulas), and creative arts.

 

This is true of me. Even in community college I blew away my teachers with writing/reading/verbal. I love science, but I never had anything beyond physical science classes in high school bc I struggled in math.

 

Mistaken recollection of names. Poor name/face retrieval. Substitute names beginning with same letter.

 

LOL I never thought of this with my dyscalculia! But yep, I often holler out "What's yer name!!" to the kids bc I constantly fumble even my children's names.

 

Difficulty with the abstract concepts of time and direction. Inability to recall schedules, and sequences of past or future events. Unable to keep track of time. May be chronically late.

 

This is NOT me. However, I could be over compensating here. I can tell you I do not know how to be on time. I know how to be 15 minutes early or 30 minutes late.

 

Inconsistent results in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Poor mental math ability. Poor with money and credit. Cannot do financial planning or budgeting. Checkbooks not balanced. Short term, not long term financial thinking. Fails to see big financial picture. May have fear of money and cash transactions. May be unable to mentally figure change due back, the amounts to pay for tips, taxes, etc.

 

I KNOW I over compensate here. I am VERY good with budgeting and money planning. However, I credit it with my awareness of my weakness. I am paranoid, so I literally do all my math three or four times to be absolutely sure I calculated it right. And that is using a calculator. I am very careful to keep a list and stick to it. It might take me an hour to feel confident of my numbers, but by golly I am certain of them. I do our taxes. And dh mildly gripes that he could do it faster. But even though I take an extra few hours, I also tend to find a few more dollars in return. I hate figuring tips. I always round up to whatever I feel is an approximate fair tip. I probably over tip bc of that. I've never had someone complain about it though. ;)

 

When writing, reading and recalling numbers, these common mistakes are made: number additions, substitutions, transpositions, omissions, and reversals.

 

Yes. I do that all the freaking time and it drives me batty. This is why I do all my math 3 or more times. I know I have to over compensate so I do.

 

Inability to grasp and remember math concepts, rules, formulas, sequence (order of operations), and basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division facts. Poor long term memory (retention & retrieval) of concept mastery- may be able to perform math operations one day, but draw a blank the next! May be able to do book work but fails all tests and quizzes.

 

This is when I seriously started to suffer in school math. I cannot memorize math formulas beyond basic length times width. I know what formula I need to use, but I cannot retrieve the formula. Insane frustrating. If given the formula, I can usually work it. It takes me approximately four times longer than someone else, but I CAN do it. And I will almost always triple check it, so I can do it and I usually get it right. Starting in about 7th grade, it took all my efforts to hold a low B in my math homework, but I'd still end up with a D because I'd be lucky to get a D on the exams. And if I didn't have time to redo my homework 3-4 times before turning it in, I usually only got a C because of all the errors I didn't get a chance to correct. Many times my exams were one of 2 things. They were either half done and mostly correct or completely and 1/4 correct. I could do the math, I just needed about 3 hours to do it and that simply never happened. My high school refused to put me in any math class beyond basic consumer math in 9th grade. I did petition my counselor to let me in algebra, but when I showed up for class the teacher sent me back out saying she didn't have time to hold my hand or space for a lazy student when there were smart kids who could actually use the slot. :glare:

 

May be unable to comprehend or "picture" mechanical processes. Lack "big picture/ whole picture" thinking. Poor ability to "visualize or picture" the location of the numbers on the face of a clock, the geographical locations of states, countries, oceans, streets, etc.

 

Learning to tell time was a PITA and I distinctly remember that just when I was feeling confident, they introduced roman numerals. I still have to think a bit longer for clocks with roman numerals. LOL However, I am VERY visual. Hmmm. Maybe I'm over compensating there too. The very first thing I do when confronted with a mechanical issue is write or diagram it. Or picture it in some more concrete manner. For example, if you give me directions, I picture myself actually driving and seeing the landmarks along the way.

 

 

Poor memory for the "layout" of things. Gets lost or disoriented easily. May have a poor sense of direction, loose things often, and seem absent minded. (Remember the absent minded professor?)

 

iffy in this. I have to drive to some place several times before I can remember how to get there without directions. But that's the only disorientation I'm aware of. I rarely loose things. I am absent minded, but I major over compensate for it so most people think I never forget anything.

 

 

May have difficulty grasping concepts of formal music education. Difficulty sight-reading music, learning fingering to play an instrument, etc.

 

I wouldn't know. I have never played an instrument or been given instruction. My kids music looks like Greek to me. I have fiddled with a keyboard and one of the kids recorders and I don't think I fumbled worse than my 7-9 year olds.

 

May have poor athletic coordination, difficulty keeping up with rapidly changing physical directions like in aerobic, dance, and exercise classes. Difficulty remembering dance step sequences, rules for playing sports.

 

I have NO athletic coordination. I fulfill every cant dance can't jump white chick stereotype there is. I laugh that I don't always walk very coordinated, don't complicate me with athletics and dance!

 

Difficulty keeping score during games, or difficulty remembering how to keep score in games, like bowling, etc. Often looses track of whose turn it is during games, like cards and board games. Limited strategic planning ability for games, like chess.

 

Sports? No. But then I'm not interested in sports so there has never been a motivation for me to strengthen that issue either. I'm sure if there was I'd muddle through until I figured out how to over compensate there too. I can play chess. I even like chess. But I will never be a grandmaster. It takes considerable effort. And if I am stressed under pressure, my brain shuts down and I can't do it at all.

 

I should note some things for me in particular.

 

I was dx in 4th grade, but I didn't know that until my mother died when I was 23. The day after she died my dad gave me a shoe box of random things she had keep from my youth. One of the envelopes was my 4th grade report card and dx report from the school special services worker. I don't know that knowing would have mattered. My parents weren't interested in changing things and looking back, I don't see it as reasonable for the school to give me many more hours of time to do the math. I guess they could have given me a calculator and made exceptions for me, but OTOH I have managed to learn to over compensate because I didn't have exceptions made for me.

 

I don't let any of my children use calculators. However I do discuss problem solving with them constantly. Just yesterday my oldest and I had a heated discussion about time management. He knows he has to set his alarm so that he has time for breakfast before heading out. He didn't so he had to head out fast with no time for breakfast and he was POd about it. I didn't have much sympathy. I just told him that if he didn't want that to repeat, he needed to sit down right then and there and figure out a solution. He said he would do it later. Sigh. I asked him how procrastinating was working for him so far? He huffed off and set his alarm, double checked it was loud and also set his iPhone to send reminders early enough to accommodate travel and glitches.

 

ETA: I don't allow calculators because even with a calculator I struggle. It's very simple. Every time I look at numbers, I have to hyper focus. Maybe the number looks different. Or maybe I recognize it different. Or maybe I accurately see the number 2 and still don't realize I wrote an 8 until I rework the problem. The same thing happens with a calculator. I might see accurately that I need to add a 2 and hit the 8 button. Sometimes I even see it wrong and hit the correct button. Argh!!!!

 

So I insist on calculator free because I know from experience that the vast majority of math problems are faulty translation. If I hit a button, it's harder to go back and find the error. If my problem is carefully written, I can put my pencil under each number and match it up to the text/recept or whatever.

 

To someone else a calculator is helpful because it reduces the numbers they have to deal with. For me, it DOUBLES the amount of number I have to look at and removes the visual pattern connecting the number, which is very much NOT helpful.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Martha