Preparing for High School Math-???'s

[Mallorie]

My oldest is currently in 8th grade, here's the background:

 

We public schooled through 4th grade, then switched to parochial for 5 & 6th where they used Saxon. For various reasons, we pulled them and started homeschooling.

 

He was doing Saxon "Level 2" at school. He placed into Algebra 1/2, and I scored a deal on the package complete for $10. So I added in the DIVE cd and that's where he started. I could see he wasn't doing real well with it, he could complete it, but had a lot wrong, and I just felt he was not getting it at all. We put it aside, tried different programs before settling on CLE. He has been doing fine with CLE, I feel that it has filled some gaps for him. But losing all that time is why he's a bit behind.

 

Currently, he's finishing up CLE 700 and will start the 800 level in January. We will do it through the summer until he's finished.

 

My biggest question then becomes "what next?". I could really use some advice as far as programs that work after completing CLE. I will say he's resistant to going back to Saxon after using it in school and then Algebra 1/2. He really disliked it.

 

Advice?

[Teachin'Mine]

I don't know if it's just Algebra 1/2 he didn't like, or was it all of Saxon? Had he done 8/7 before doing Algebra 1/2? If you can borrow it from someone, you may want him to look through it to see what he thinks. The format is very different from Algebra 1/2 and might work better for him for pre-algebra. Or you may want to use something entirely different. For us, we found 8/7 to be great prep for algebra and dd liked the way Saxon taught and the variety of problems each day. But each student is so different.

[Mallorie]

I've read where Saxon 1/2 is just different than the others, but was not sure why, or if that assessment was accurate. Perhaps I will dig deeper there.

 

If he completes CLE 800 if he would be ready for Saxon Algebra 1, and just skip the 8/7 and 1/2 entirely?

 

Any other good high school maths I should be looking at?

 

ETA: I'm not sure why he hated Saxon, exactly. He just had a really hard time understanding it. I lean toward the feeling that he did not have a solid foundation before he was put into Saxon. He did well with Saxon at school, but I never really felt like he was comprehending what he was doing entirely. Just being led through the motions. Or perhaps my mistake was doing Algebra 1/2 and not a different level. I really struggled with picking out curriculum with all three kids at such different levels. Now that we've got a groove with hs'ing established, I want to fine-tune.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Mallorie

[HiddenJewel]

I thought I had heard that CLE had their next level of Sunrise math at least in pre-production. Did I hear wrong?

[HiddenJewel]

I thought I had heard that CLE had their next level of Sunrise math at least in pre-production. Did I hear wrong?

 

Just spoke with CLE and they will have a preliminary edition of Algebra available for next school year.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Here are some ideas for Algebra, possibly more:

Foerster

Lial

Jacob

Chalkdust

Life of Fred

Math-U-See

Teaching Textbooks

 

I found it very helpful to borrow as many as I could find from the library, some through inter-library loan.

 

Would you consider him a good, average, or struggling math student?

 

Is video a necessity?

 

Is cost a big factor?

 

Do you think he will want to pursue a STEM major?

 

Is he more language oriented than math/science oriented?

 

I know nothing about CLE. Have never been a fan of Saxon. We've used Foerster, LoF, and MUS. Have opinions on all, but more info would be helpful to narrow down the options.

[Teachin'Mine]

I've read where Saxon 1/2 is just different than the others, but was not sure why, or if that assessment was accurate. Perhaps I will dig deeper there.

 

If he completes CLE 800 if he would be ready for Saxon Algebra 1, and just skip the 8/7 and 1/2 entirely?

 

Any other good high school maths I should be looking at?

 

ETA: I'm not sure why he hated Saxon, exactly. He just had a really hard time understanding it. I lean toward the feeling that he did not have a solid foundation before he was put into Saxon. He did well with Saxon at school, but I never really felt like he was comprehending what he was doing entirely. Just being led through the motions. Or perhaps my mistake was doing Algebra 1/2 and not a different level. I really struggled with picking out curriculum with all three kids at such different levels. Now that we've got a groove with hs'ing established, I want to fine-tune.

 

Unfortunately I don't know anything about CLE. Saxon incorporates geometry into their pre-algebra and algebra texts, so unless all the content and way of teaching was covered in CLE, I'd be inclined to start with 8/7 and then move to Algebra 1 if he masters that. If he's still iffy after 8/7, then I'd use some of the 1/2, since you have it already, to make it solid before algebra.

 

There are any number of reasons why Saxon might not work well for any one student, but one to be aware of is that it does take time. Each lesson should take about an hour, or even more, to complete. Any missed problems should be re-worked by the student until they get them right. Skipping this, or skipping lesson problems, will lead to missed concepts. Saxon takes work, but if it fits your student's learning style, it works very well.

 

Sue gave you a good list of the other options. Looking at each of them, and doing some searching here, should give you a good idea of which may work best. :)

[Mallorie]

I've been doing some searches, and would love more input. I've added my answers below.

 

Here are some ideas for Algebra, possibly more:

Foerster Where on earth do you buy this? Great reviews, but hard to find!

Lial

Jacob I'm seeing a lot of good feedback on this one, too.

Chalkdust

Life of Fred

Math-U-See

Teaching Textbooks We looked at the Algebra samples and my son said "I know all that stuff, Mom".

 

I found it very helpful to borrow as many as I could find from the library, some through inter-library loan. Ours doesn't seem to have any of the above.

 

Would you consider him a good, average, or struggling math student? I consider him a really good, motivated student. I think his years in public school were a dis-service, and his two years at parochial were in such contrast it left his head spinning. He catches on fairly quickly to new concepts, and is willing to work math year-round to enter college with a solid math foundation. It is my prayer that the last two years at home have filled in the gaps, stabilized him and prepared him to move on.

 

Is video a necessity? No, but I am not confident in my ability to teach high school math, so it would have to have a good TM or something to really hold my hand, kwim?

 

Is cost a big factor? We are on a budget, yes, but I would spend the money if I knew it was a program that works. I also have two more kids who could use it. I figure, spend the money now to teach him math, let it pay off for his lifetime.

 

Do you think he will want to pursue a STEM major? As of this moment, he wants to be an engineer.

 

Is he more language oriented than math/science oriented? Not sure how to answer this. He has always read a lot, his comprehension and retention are excellent. I will say he hates grammar, but loves to read and write. I would tend to say, though, he's wired for math and science.

 

I know nothing about CLE. Have never been a fan of Saxon. We've used Foerster, LoF, and MUS. Have opinions on all, but more info would be helpful to narrow down the options.

 

I would love more help figuring out where to go next. Particularly if he should just move on to an algebra text once he's finished up with CLE 700. He could finish algebra before next fall and start geometry his freshman year. Help! :bigear:

[Teachin'Mine]

FWIW if you are at all interested in Saxon - as he did do well with it at one time - he can take their online placement test to see if he's ready to go into algebra 1. It teaches to the student directly and it sounds like he's motivated and willing to work. Their texts are excellent preparation for engineering IMO.

 

Even if he started with 8/7 this year, that would put him in

Algebra 1 in 9th

Algebra 2 in 10th

Advanced Math in 11

and Calculus in 12th

 

So I wouldn't worry at all about it seeming like he's backtracking for a bit. He can be well prepared for college.

[Julie in MN]

One more to consider is going straight into algebra using Math Relief. He says it includes pre-algebra. He has a sample video on the website or on utube. Gifted teacher in explaining algebra and taking students far.

 

Julie

[Laurie4b]

I think Chalkdust would be a good choice in your situation since you are not confident of your ability to teach math in high school. If you are comfortable with Algebra 1, I have found Jacob's easier to teach than Foersters but Foersters is the more advanced text. Imo, they also complicate their explanations unneccessarily at times. Jacob's also does a much better job of review than Foerster's. Foersters has much more emphasis on word problems. I would ditch the Saxon if he is not getting it. I would not have been able to learn easily with Saxon. I find it visually aversive and prefer a method that allows me to have enough problems to feel like I've mastered a concept before moving on. Other people do well with it, but I wouldn't use it with a kid who didn't click with it before.

 

If he wants to go into engineering, you should create a plan that allows him to get in calculus in high school. It is realistic to do both algebra 1 and geometry in the same year, so that would mean alg/geom his 9th grade year, Algebra 2 in 10th, precalc in 11th, and calc in 12th. That would catch him up to where he would be competitive getting into an engineering school. Do you have the option for him to take community college classes when he gets into more advanced math? That can be helpful.

[Mallorie]

I'm hesitant to return to Saxon, so I am really exploring other options. I think he could get through it, but I just don't think it's the way for him to go.

 

I didn't think about doing Alg 1 and Geometry the same year. Is that really a possibility? Do you mean fast-tracking one then moving to the other or doing both at the same time?

 

My last math in high school was trig, so I can be taught but it's been a long time. LOL

 

My concern is that I can feel the clock ticking. I know I need to make smart choices for him now, I really want to steer him in the right direction.

[Trilliums]

My kids have had to try a variety of textbooks in order to find a good math fit for them. Nothing compares to actually being able to try out the text book. Are there local home school groups where you might be able to find people with some of the programs you are considering? Do the public schools let you look at their materials? I also go to thrift stores to look for used books. :)

 

Also, even though we have home schooled for a long time, my boys were behind in math as they approached Jr. High, mostly due to reading/dyslexia problems. As it turned out though, their math abilities as young teenagers have grown greatly. Your son (even without any particular learning difficulties) may mature into a readiness for more complex math during his Jr. High years.

 

FWIW, DS #2 is in 8th grade this year and began Saxon Alg 1. As a 7th grader he did Teachign Textbooks 7 and then at the beginning of the year he did 3 months of a free trial on ALEKS. He is not particularly strong in math computation and I need to help him with assignments from time to time. In general Saxon Alg 1 is goign well, even though he never had a pre-alg class. He also went through the basic computation review at xtramath.org (free!) which starts with addition and goes through subtraction, mult and division. I see he really needed that practice and complete familiarity with basic math facts to be more confident in his math. I also plan to have him go through the khanacademy.org practice section (from the beginning!) so we can find any gaps in his math knowledge base. This is our holiday plan. Yay!

 

Also, we never tried Lials, but if Saxon was a no-go for DS #2, I was going to buy a Lials alg text for him to try. They sound like a good fit for a self-motivated learner who seeks clear explanations. Plus, many older editions are available from Amazon. There are many discussion on the board about the different Lail algebra texts, for example:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316241&referrerid=28897

 

 

My older son is a 9th grader this year and he did Saxon Alg 1 last year, but was ready for a change this year. He is doing Art of Problem Solving Geometry and enjoys it immensely.

 

I also purchased Art of PS Intro Alg (thinking DS #2 woudl use it) but it is not a good fit for him. He just does not have the ease with numbers and seeing immediate connections that the Art of PS alg text seems to require. I am hoping he might grow into it, but we shall see.

[regentrude]

I didn't think about doing Alg 1 and Geometry the same year. Is that really a possibility? Do you mean fast-tracking one then moving to the other or doing both at the same time?

 

 

I would hesitate to recommend something like this. I teach physics for science and engineering majors at a four year university and see students struggling every semester because they lack math skills. They fail not because they are lacking calculus, but because their algebra skills are not rock solid.

For this very reason, I would encourage you to take whatever time is necessary to cover algebra 1 as thoroughly as possible. Rushing through algebra 1 will create problems further down the road.

 

Geometry does require some algebra. If you really want to double up on math, I would recommend doing geometry and algebra 2 in the same year. you need to plan, however, to actually double up, i.e. spend twice as much time on math if you intend to cover two math courses in one year.

It is nice, but not essential to have had calculus in high school. If your son is interested in a STEM major, he will have to take several semesters of calculus at the university and should retake calc 1 there even if he gets to take it during high school.

[Trilliums]

I would hesitate to recommend something like this. I teach physics for science and engineering majors at a four year university and see students struggling every semester because they lack math skills. They fail not because they are lacking calculus, but because their algebra skills are not rock solid.

For this very reason, I would encourage you to take whatever time is necessary to cover algebra 1 as thoroughly as possible. Rushing through algebra 1 will create problems further down the road..

 

 

If you have time, I would love to read more details on this. Of course, I understand if you don't have time. :) By alg skills, do you mean conceptual understanding, being able to quickly work through problems...or.....? Perhaps they are the same thing?

 

I am curious about it since DS #1 is beginning to watch pre-calc videos on khan academy as well as do the associated problem sets. He completed Saxon Alg 1 last year and is currently doing AoPS geometry. He is also doing some of the last chapters in AoPS Intro to Alg. Soooo, I am wondering if his time would be best spent focusing on Geometry and Alg 2 this year and holding off on the calculus. It is funny though because he was so eager for winter break and how did he spend his day yesterday? On khan academy! Hmm...off to go look at the next AoPS algebra book....

[regentrude]

If you have time, I would love to read more details on this. Of course, I understand if you don't have time. :) By alg skills, do you mean conceptual understanding, being able to quickly work through problems...or.....? Perhaps they are the same thing?

 

No, conceptual understanding and actual proficiency in problem solving are not the same thing. I would assume that every student in my class knows in principle how to solve a linear equation with one unknown, a system of two linear equations with two unknowns, a quadratic equation (and would possibly arrive at the correct answer if given a lot of time)

The problem is that many of my students are not able to solve these types of problems quickly and correctly without having to think about it.

In a physics course, they should have their brains free to focus on the physics concepts and to think about physics principles. The should have mastered the math to such a degree that solving these simple types of math problems I mentioned above should be as automatic as knowing the multiplication facts or adding integers - they should not have to focus on worrying about math.

Same goes for chemistry - a student doing stoichiometry should think about the logic of the chemistry problem and should not be hampered by his inability to work with proportions and fractions.

 

I am curious about it since DS #1 is beginning to watch pre-calc videos on khan academy as well as do the associated problem sets. He completed Saxon Alg 1 last year and is currently doing AoPS geometry. He is also doing some of the last chapters in AoPS Intro to Alg. Soooo, I am wondering if his time would be best spent focusing on Geometry and Alg 2 this year and holding off on the calculus. It is funny though because he was so eager for winter break and how did he spend his day yesterday? On khan academy! Hmm...off to go look at the next AoPS algebra book....

 

In order to actually do calculus, the student needs to have completed algebra 2 and precalculus and geometry

This does not mean the student can not understand some basic ideas of calc; the two main concepts are actually fairly simple. The student can even learn how to calculate derivatives of simple power law functions. But that's it - to master calculus of trig functions, exponentials, logarithms etc algebra 2 and precalculus are prerequisites.

 

I, too, have given my DD an introduction into calculus - there is nothing wrong with that. But I would not want her to spend too much time on topics for which she does not have the prerequisites - as soon as you go beyond the first basics, progress will simply not be possible.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Okay, based on your answers, I would select from the following:

 

Foerster - I bought the student and teacher text used. See ISBNs here. I bought the solutions manual from Prentice Hall. Many people use Foerster without the teacher text. Video available from Math without Borders. Foerster is my personal favorite particularly for a STEM student because of the numerous real-life word problems.

 

Lial - solid text. See this thread. Search for Lial and Jann in TX for lots more info. I think videos are available.

 

Jacob - solid text but verbose - that's why I asked about language-oriented.

 

Chalkdust - solid text especially helpful if you want to stick to one program throughout high school that has videos

 

Life of Fred - another solid but verbose one.

 

IMHO, MUS and TT are not suitable for STEM students.

 

Another option is AoPS (Art of Problem Solving). It seems to be for gifted students and uses a discovery approach, I believe.

 

Sorry, still no ideas about CLE transition.

 

HTH!

[Trilliums]

No, conceptual understanding and actual proficiency in problem solving are not the same thing. I would assume that every student in my class knows in principle how to solve a linear equation with one unknown, a system of two linear equations with two unknowns, a quadratic equation (and would possibly arrive at the correct answer if given a lot of time)

The problem is that many of my students are not able to solve these types of problems quickly and correctly without having to think about it.

In a physics course, they should have their brains free to focus on the physics concepts and to think about physics principles. The should have mastered the math to such a degree that solving these simple types of math problems I mentioned above should be as automatic as knowing the multiplication facts or adding integers - they should not have to focus on worrying about math.

Same goes for chemistry - a student doing stoichiometry should think about the logic of the chemistry problem and should not be hampered by his inability to work with proportions and fractions.

 

 

 

 

Thank you very much as this is very helpful as we continue to navigate through math curriculum in high school.

 

This should come as no surprise to me since I believe DS#2 had this issue arise with Alg 1--conceptually all was good, but computationally he was bogged down by each question. Whenever I see a post about a child struggling in Algebra my first thought is: do they have math computation really cemented in their minds? Yes, my kids knew their times tables, etc, but they did not have the needed association with number patterns. This took them longer than expected. It makes me think of how kids with this tendency can easily end up labelled non-mathy (or feel like math failures) when in reality they may just need extra time as well as more real life practice manipulating numbers, as was the case with my boys.

[Mallorie]

Okay, based on your answers, I would select from the following:

 

Foerster - I bought the student and teacher text used. See ISBNs here. I bought the solutions manual from Prentice Hall. Many people use Foerster without the teacher text. Video available from Math without Borders. Foerster is my personal favorite particularly for a STEM student because of the numerous real-life word problems.

 

Lial - solid text. See this thread. Search for Lial and Jann in TX for lots more info. I think videos are available.

 

Jacob - solid text but verbose - that's why I asked about language-oriented.

 

Chalkdust - solid text especially helpful if you want to stick to one program throughout high school that has videos

 

Life of Fred - another solid but verbose one.

 

IMHO, MUS and TT are not suitable for STEM students.

 

Another option is AoPS (Art of Problem Solving). It seems to be for gifted students and uses a discovery approach, I believe.

 

Sorry, still no ideas about CLE transition.

 

HTH!

 

Thank you! I can't tell you how much I appreciate the help, navigating this unknown territory. :)

 

I will start a thread asking about CLE transition.

[MIch elle]

CLE math 8

CLE algebra (should be ready by fall)

Saxon algebra 1 ( I recommend Art Reed dvds)

Teaching Textbooks algebra 1

 

All would be a good choice after CLE math 7 (we used CLE math 5-7 & have 8).

 

We didn't like Chalkdust algebra 1. It was not homeschool friendly, imho.

[lauracolumbus]

DS did Saxon through Algebra 1/2. He was not a fan, but we plodded through it. He's doing Chalkdust Algebra 1 right now. He's really liking it, but is getting Cs. I'm not sure why. He does do well on the material previously covered by Saxon 1/2, which is quite a bit. I'd prefer to return to Saxon b/c it's easier for me to figure out, but I am really liking the CD dvds, while I prefer Saxon's structure.

 

DD12 is loving Saxon 1/2 and refuses to try anything else.

 

I've heard great things about Lial's and that would have been my second choice after CD. I'd also consider some online programs such as Derek Owen's or Jann in Texas math class next year.

 

Laura