cjbeach Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 ...while talking with a neighbor's mom who is a local teacher. Ugh. Sometimes I just forget the differences between HS and a non-classical school when it comes to teaching writing. We teach writing a la WTM, with the goal of progym. I made the HUGE mistake of *very casually* stating that I was unsure of dd homeschooling much longer, and would like to get her up to speed for PS writing. ((I was looking to compare what my 3rd grade dd was doing using WWE3, WWW3, and some Step Up Writing with what her students are doing. As we all know, and have read, it's more about QUANTITY in schools now.)) Ugh. She chewed me up and spit me out, tactfully, but ouch. I think I need to take some TUMS, and go back to looking at the local classical school (who uses Classical Composition btw...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 And, so she thinks she's in the right? Does she have anything to back up her assertions? Or, is she justified in that she is a public school teacher and knows best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 What were her points? Did you explain how your programs work and she then let you have it about her superior methods? (which were??) I am curious, having never used the P.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay3fer Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Some people will pick at what you're doing, no matter what. We have an older neighbour, a teacher, who I love to bait, esp. about math, her specialty. The truth is, she has cancer and we're in the middle of driving her to treatments every week etc, so I figure she needs some lighter moments. I choose to let her pick on my kids' homeschooling. My dd6 is finished the Grade 1 math curriculum, but she was asking me, "how do you know?" I explained that the curriculum we used just happened to meet Ontario ministry curriculum, but she was very doubtful. So, just to tease her, I pulled out Life of Fred. She was appropriately appalled ("where's the MATH?!". :-) But then I showed her Verbal Math Lesson, which she couldn't criticize. Finally, I grabbed some Miquon sheets, to demonstrate that my dd is doing simple multiplication, well in advance of the provincial guidelines, and she looked at it with her magnifying glass and stared at the copyright date: "1964???" I said, "I don't think basic multiplication has changed too much since then." Just say it with a smile, thank people for their advice, whether you like it or not... then, turn to somebody else for practical tips on how to help your dd. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjbeach Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) What were her points? Did you explain how your programs work and she then let you have it about her superior methods? (which were??) I am curious, having never used the P.S. PS kids are writing a lot. 3rd graders are writing 5 paragraphs about a chosen topic, from I can see. My dd isn't "there." Her output is good, but not that quantity, though we do narrations, use WWE3, WWW3, and paragraph practice with Step Up to Writing. Public school writing is very formulaic. We did hire a writing tutor for my 5th grade ds who has ASD, writing is like pulling teeth for him. I needed help. She was a product of Barbara Mariconda's work in CT http://www.empoweringwriters.com/?q=blog/21 . She taught him using a very formulaic method, and it's pretty much what the kids here are being taught in the privates and the public schools: lots of writing workshop, 6traits writing, formulaic paragraphs, etc... Some of this is addressed in WWW but not to the extent that it is in the schools right now, those kids are definitely writing MORE, and the kids are jounaling from K on. I know we just perused my son's K writing journal the other day. It's different schools of thought. I think most teachers I've run into believe in the practice.... write everyday. The it becomes - write a paragraph using this formula, everyday. Then write a few paragraphs, using this formula, 2-3 days a week with one day for editing. I don't know that one way is superior to the other, just different. Personally I just believe some people naturally write well. Edited November 23, 2011 by cjbeach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) PS kids are writing a lot. 3rd graders are writing 5 paragraphs about a chosen topic, from I can see. My dd isn't "there." Her output is good, but not that quantity, though we do narrations, use WWE3, WWW3, and paragraph practice with Step Up to Writing. How well are they writing those 5 paragraphs, and how? (Typed or handwritten).Could you have her work up to the volume without sacrificing quality? I don't see how a journal would do much good; but perhaps setting aside an hour in the afternoon for a writing project like CW does would be helpful for her. She could choose the subject for a short essay, do the research via narration and then put that all together for the required amount. It might not be the WTM way, but I actually go through the narrations my boys do for me orally, once they are written down and we analyze the sentences for grammar, brevity, concise thoughts, etc, and then we correct them on the next day. So far I do this for their writing only, but I think they are ready to handle it for other subjects where we take narration such as history, literature and science. I'm only expecting about a paragraph out of them at this point, but I think they would be capable of much more if we took it in pieces. I should add that neither of these boys are what I would call natural writers. (I still have to go over capitals and punctuation!) One of them has hFA and has all kinds of issues with sequencing. The other is verbose and scattered in his initial narration. But both of them have been doing very well with the critiques, and getting so much better in their writing. Edited November 23, 2011 by Critterfixer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 It's different schools of thought. I think most teachers I've run into believe in the practice.... write everyday. The it becomes - write a paragraph using this formula, everyday. Then write a few paragraphs, using this formula, 2-3 days a week with one day for editing. I don't know that one way is superior to the other, just different. Personally I just believe some people naturally write well. :iagree: If you are following classical methods of writing instruction, then there is no way to have an intelligent or reasonable discussion with a public teacher about writing. "Different schools of thought" is a great way to put it. It's more than that, though. A ps teacher has that child in their classroom for only 9 months. They are going to do what gets the most progress in 9 months. That means lots of daily writing and formulas. I don't disagree with daily writing as we do more writing than the average classical homeschooler, but I really believe that the early formulaic writing combined with the attitude of quantity over quality will cause harm over the long-term. As a public school teacher I saw this a lot. By 4th grade almost all kids hated writing. That isn't what I want as a homeschool parent. I'm building a foundation for writing, not running a race. Colleges will want your high schooler to be able to write 5-paragraph essays that are logical, coherent, and grammatical. However, I don't know of any college that cares whether your child wrote 5-paragraph essays in the 3rd grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeannpal Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Public and private school teachers don't have the luxury of being able to work with each student one on one. Really, when you try to compare how writing is taught in PS versus how writing might be taught at home, you are really comparing apples to oranges. I think very highly of the WTM method of teaching writing, but as others have already said, it is one method that might not work for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinE Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Colleges will want your high schooler to be able to write 5-paragraph essays that are logical, coherent, and grammatical. However, I don't know of any college that cares whether your child wrote 5-paragraph essays in the 3rd grade. This is why I don't understand the rush to generate 5 paragraph essays in 3rd grade. I think the first four years should be building up to a good paragraph. The next 4 should build up to a good essay, and high school writing a good short thesis. My ds (3rd) and I are working on the mechanics of a good paragraph while he's still mastering the basics of a good sentence. However, if you peruse the high school and college writing discussions, most will agree critiquing writing is hard. I don't think there is enough feedback in PS for kids to truly understand why their writing falls. It appears the ouput is the goal, not the outcome. I'm trying to balance both right now, but it consumes a lot of our time together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjbeach Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 THANK YOU all. All valid points! Your words and the Tums helped ease gastric distress caused by the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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