lewelma Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I have read everything I can find on CW on the High School boards, but still have a few questions for those who have BTDT. Can you start at Herodotus? I have found one little statement on their site that says "The best preparation for Herodotus is Diogenes: Chreia. However, students new to Classical Writing can start with this text. It is recommended that students have had at least some experience with retelling narratives." Can you skip the Grammar portion of CW, or does that ruin the program? When does the grammar part drop out? I'm thinking about just using the writing portion, but it all seems really integrated. We will be doing Traditional Logic, so that aspect is fine with us. I love what I have read about the Invention part of the Lost tools of Writing. How does CW compare in its treatment of Invention? Thanks, Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 :lurk5: I would love to hear people's thoughts on this one.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I have read everything I can find on CW on the High School boards, but still have a few questions for those who have BTDT. Can you start at Herodotus? I have found one little statement on their site that says "The best preparation for Herodotus is Diogenes: Chreia. However, students new to Classical Writing can start with this text. It is recommended that students have had at least some experience with retelling narratives." Can you skip the Grammar portion of CW, or does that ruin the program? When does the grammar part drop out? I'm thinking about just using the writing portion, but it all seems really integrated. We will be doing Traditional Logic, so that aspect is fine with us. I love what I have read about the Invention part of the Lost tools of Writing. How does CW compare in its treatment of Invention? Thanks, Ruth in NZ Hello Ruth, I've used CW from Aesop through Maxim and the poetry books, but I have not used Herodotus. I've also used the first level of LToW 3rd ed. It's also been a couple of years since I've used either so my memory of the details isn't the best. The CW organizing principle for lessons is based on a recurring pattern of theory, analysis and imitation of a model, and a writing project which incorporates the things covered in the theory and A&I lessons. For the writing projects there is an evaluation rubric which starts at the global level and descends to more specific things such as grammar, syntax, and mechanics. If I've read the CW website correctly, the theory lessons for Herodotus are based on Traditional Logic; if that's true you won't have to worry about grammar lessons. [FWIW, the theory in Aesop is mostly based on pre-grammar language arts skills such as handwriting, spelling, basic sentence conventions, etc. The theory portion of Homer and Herodotus is grammar. My son was always ahead of the CW books we used, so I used the theory portions as quick review and/or substituted whatever theory my son happened to be ready for. That meant that I was sometimes using Revised English Grammar instead of Harvey's Elementary, Traditional Logic, or Classical Rhetoric lessons in the theory portion of CW. That also meant that I did some tweaking during the A&I lessons and writing projects. Because the models chosen are so good there's usually content which can challenge an older student that you might not touch on with a younger student. Usually, though, we followed the book more or less and practiced the higher level skills on additional writing projects for history literature and science--something that I always did no matter what writing curriculum we happened to be using.] CW typically addresses the canons of invention, arrangement, and style during the writing project portion of each book. The invention techniques vary depending on the level of instruction. I don't have my books at hand, so I can't be more detailed than that. Skills taught in CW Homer regarding narrative that you'd want a student beginning in Herodotus to be familiar with would be precis writing, different paraphrase techniques, and probably the three basic forms of narrative; straightforward, reverse, and in media res. [One of the most useful narrative lessons from Homer for us was the instruction on writing non-fiction narrative.] I remember hearing at one point that Herodotus would include some leveling work for students who wanted to begin with it but not having seen the book I can't give specifics. Guess I need to see if I can find my LULU account information; I intended to buy Herodotus for myself as soon as ds graduated, but that hasn't happened yet. :001_smile: LToW is written from a classical perspective, but it is organized differently and focused more narrowly (at least at the first level) on writing persuasive essays, although it does begin work on comparison essays in the later lessons. I used it with my son because he needed help with invention for SAT/ACT essays. It didn't really help with that--canned essays are not something he does well. It was helpful for the more substantive essay writing required in his first college courses, though, so for us using it was worthwhile. Invention in LT is taught using careful attention to asking questions...what is X, how does it compare to Y...what do authorities say about X...etc. The student is taught to organize information in the pre-writing stage using an ANI sheet (A=affirmative; N=negative; I=interesting supporting information) I didn't bookmark the link, but someone here posted one to a free webinar hosted by Circe on the ANI process. I think there's still time to sign up if you're interested. HTH, Martha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 That was very useful. Thanks so much! Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) We are using CC not CW, but from what I can see, they are similar, and based on that, I would not attempt Refutation/Confirmation; i.e. Herodotus, without first working through Chreia and Maxim. We used LToW two years ago, and it teaches one type of persusavie essay and a comparison essay. It's not progym, but we enjoyed LToW very much. I have the new version, but haven't worked it into our schedule as yet. Edited October 2, 2011 by 1Togo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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