TOG or CC? Which is the better fit?

[Hedgehogs4]

[/url]I know a lot of people here are questioning which classical approach is the best to use and why people choose one over the other. I did CC for three years with my kids, and tutored one of those years. This year we made the move to TOG. I have posted a two-part blog article about why I made the switch. Stop by and take a look. I'm very interested in why other people have chosen one over the other as well, so please reply to this thread and let me know what your thoughts are! The first post is here.

[AFwife Claire]

Fascinating blog posts! We actually have been on the same journey as you, except that we were only a part of CC for one year. The year we did CC my oldest was technically in 7th grade, although we still put him Foundations. A good friend and I were trying it out, to see if we wanted to start a challenge program the next year. But we found many of the same frustrations as you did (my oldest also LOVES history), and it was just too much for us to be gone 2 days of the week (we were already in a wonderful enrichment unit-study-type co-op for elementary kids that we both loved and is extremely well-run and beneficial, so we weren't going to give that up).

 

After much prayer and discussion, last year we started a small jr. high/ high school co-op with 4 other families using TOG. It has been WONDERFUL!! We meet the same day that the younger kids are at their other co-op, so we're only gone one day a week. We do history, literature, and writing from TOG, and then we also do science (physical science this year) and Spanish. The older boys are there from 9:30-4:30, and after the elementary kids are done with their co-op, one of us moms picks them up and brings them around the corner to our TOG co-op. There we do a young writers class (using an IEW e-book), and I do memory work with them--we're memorizing a big Scripture passage, a 32 point timeline with dates (which we also learned last year, so we're reviewing it) the kings and queens of England, a science fact each week pulled from the BJU Physical Science book, and several poems over the course of the year. Then I do TOG map work with the little kids, and sometimes we do fun projects. It's a long day, but tons of fun. And it gets most of the school stuff assigned for the week for the older kids--only math and Latin, mainly, are not done here. TOG has really worked well for our family, and for this co-op.

 

So funny that we have travelled such a similar path!

[Hedgehogs4]

After much prayer and discussion, last year we started a small jr. high/ high school co-op with 4 other families using TOG. It has been WONDERFUL!! We meet the same day that the younger kids are at their other co-op, so we're only gone one day a week. We do history, literature, and writing from TOG, and then we also do science (physical science this year) and Spanish. The older boys are there from 9:30-4:30, and after the elementary kids are done with their co-op, one of us moms picks them up and brings them around the corner to our TOG co-op. There we do a young writers class (using an IEW e-book), and I do memory work with them--we're memorizing a big Scripture passage, a 32 point timeline with dates (which we also learned last year, so we're reviewing it) the kings and queens of England, a science fact each week pulled from the BJU Physical Science book, and several poems over the course of the year. Then I do TOG map work with the little kids, and sometimes we do fun projects. It's a long day, but tons of fun. And it gets most of the school stuff assigned for the week for the older kids--only math and Latin, mainly, are not done here. TOG has really worked well for our family, and for this co-op.

 

So funny that we have travelled such a similar path!

 

Thank you so much for your reply! I am so excited to hear that your co-op is working out so well. For the time being we are only doing 3 hours in the mornings on Fridays, but I can absolutely see us expanding. One of the other families in the group comes to my house afterward for French (which I am teaching the kids). We talked about incorporating science, but at this point it was just too much to take on and try to get handy with TOG at the same time.

 

I'm so glad to hear your report!! :thumbup1:

[AFwife Claire]

Yes, your kids are still young--I wouldn't want to do afternoons until I had people in at least jr. high! Plus, we are all teaching our strengths. I have a degree in biology, so me teaching higher sciences worked. Another mom has advanced degrees in languages and has worked as a translator, so teaching foreign language was her fit. Pray in a science person for when you reach jr. high and high school! : )

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Loved your blog posts!! We're new to TOG as well, and are really liking it a lot, particularly for my dialectic child. I worried, at times, that I wasn't doing a good job with him. Doing TOG and him delving into Dialectic, getting all the reading and assignments done, doing well at it, and really enjoying it was a big confidence booster for me. :)

 

I've never used CC before but have looked at it in the past and liked the idea of all the memory. Here is my question: Both of you seem to be incorporating memory into TOG. How do you do it? What resources? I saw you say the VP cards. I used to have some of them and really liked them...sold them and now don't know why!! I may have to purchase those and the cds again. What else do you do? What is the 32-point timeline? I'm presently trying to think of ways to help this all "stick" with my LG guys (I posted about it earlier) and I'd love ideas!!

[Hedgehogs4]

Thanks for reading the posts!

 

About memory work...We do the VP timeline which is actually 160 cards, as a carryover from CC. We also memorize scripture, poems (the poetry unit is coming up in a couple of weeks for us and we will memorize some poems), and any relevant historical documents as they come up. We will be discussing the Constitution next week and so I would like for them to memorize the preamble and the bill of rights. I also will have them memorize at least the first verse of the Star Spangled Banner when we discuss the war of 1812, just to give a few examples.

 

CC is built on memory work and then you take that home and give it context. TOG is built on context and you choose what you want them to memorize from there. It seems much more natural to me.

[AFwife Claire]

CC is built on memory work and then you take that home and give it context. TOG is built on context and you choose what you want them to memorize from there. It seems much more natural to me.

 

Oh, I agree with this!! I find poems, speeches, or whatever that have to do with what we are studying, and I break those down into weekly chunks. We just keep building cummulatively, but it's not overwhelming at all. The 32 point timeline is just something I made up, using some VP card titles, and adding in a few events from other than American history that I thought were important in the last 2 centuries. PM me with your email address and I will send you the file, if you'd like.

 

I actually posted on here a few weeks ago about my memory work stuff . . . let's see . . . here's the link. I pasted a few week's worth of examples of what I do. Maybe it will be helpful!

[Hedgehogs4]

Yes, looking back on our two years in CC, I can see now that this is why CC felt more like an intrusion in our homeschool than a supplement. I think I needed to give it more time at home to do the program justice, but at the same time I was never willing to let CC drive our academic goals.

 

Sure, we memorized the first 12 elements in the periodic table by number, element, and mass, but without further study, context, reading, interest--something--that information was way too abstract and boring to hold a prominent place in our brains. I'm pretty sure it was dumped two years ago.

 

Of course, there are benefits to a good CC community. But those benefits, for us, did not outweigh the costs, time, and effort. (I tutored for two years, so my effort was immense.)

 

Still love those history sentences out to song though :)

 

All my rambling to say . . . thanks for posting your thoughts. It helped me clarify my own.

 

wow...you articulated this very well. I spent the first two years feeling like CC should be the spine of our learning and it rather it felt like an "intrusion" because of our inability to sit and marinate in the concepts a little. It is why I took a year off. Furthermore, as you said, if you are a decent tutor, your effort is "tremendous"--I couldn't pull it off for more than a year. The final year that we did CC we had much better success, due mostly to the fact that my son was older and more able to handle the volume of material coming at him, but as you said, I am unwilling to let CC dictate our trajectory for schooling. I have gone round and round about this. I've decided to just get off the merry-go-round and find another ride.

[Abeth78]

Could I please stick my nose into this conversation to ask about the two. I have been considering CC for my youngest next fall. We have friends in the group and at least in my area seems to be the best co-op (yes I know it is a tutorial) around.

 

I am nervous on how to set up my day, to set the pace, to know the resources etc. That was one thing I was looking toward as an added benefit. I also am not sure of my child's learning style at this point. I don't know what his "loves" will be yet academically.

 

I should note I was homeschooled from K-graduation, so I am familiar with homeschool, and that does not worry me. My mom did a wonderful job (still does as she has 3 little ones yet) but I am not sure I want to go straight with Abeka curriculum. I like the Classical way...and I already find myself leaning toward a Charlotte Mason type of pre-shool for my little guy.

 

Could any of you speak to the balance of having a community to help get started...vs... the cons of the program. I too think I would prefer a 4 yr cycle.

[Hedgehogs4]

Could I please stick my nose into this conversation to ask about the two. I have been considering CC for my youngest next fall. We have friends in the group and at least in my area seems to be the best co-op (yes I know it is a tutorial) around.

 

I am nervous on how to set up my day, to set the pace, to know the resources etc. That was one thing I was looking toward as an added benefit. I also am not sure of my child's learning style at this point. I don't know what his "loves" will be yet academically.

 

I should note I was homeschooled from K-graduation, so I am familiar with homeschool, and that does not worry me. My mom did a wonderful job (still does as she has 3 little ones yet) but I am not sure I want to go straight with Abeka curriculum. I like the Classical way...and I already find myself leaning toward a Charlotte Mason type of pre-shool for my little guy.

 

Could any of you speak to the balance of having a community to help get started...vs... the cons of the program. I too think I would prefer a 4 yr cycle.

 

I think that having a community to get started with is wonderful. I do not regret having started with CC at all, because if not for having been there, I would not be where I am with the folks I am with. I do not necessarily recommend it for parents of small children just for the community, though. All the women in our current group found that CC was no longer a fit for them, and we moved on together at about the same point. We did not want to let that community fall apart.

 

The point at which we decided to move on was when we looked ahead to the challenge program and found that it would not suit us. The foundations years, however, are great. There is certainly no harm in trying it out and seeing if it is a fit for you. I generally think it is not best suited when the oldest child in a family is 5 or younger, but you know your family best. If it really seems like money well spent, then go for it. If not, wait until the oldest is in 3rd grade or you have at least two in the Foundations program and then start.

 

There are lots of less expensive ways to build community with others when your children are small. You could start your own "small group" of moms who have kids of a similar age and do a very C.M.-style thing like Five In A Row (FIAR) or do a SOTW co-op, which would then situate you on a perfect 4-year cycle right out of the gate. These things take a bit of initiative, but they can be worth it. It is especially helpful because it will cultivate the habit of planning lessons well and generating community, which IMHO, are two of the most challenging aspects of hsing.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Hedgehogs4

[Hedgehogs4]

oops. see previous post.

[Abeth78]

Thanks I appreciate the input! I want him to have a good start regardless of his mother still learning to school him :D

[bethben]

I organized a TOG co-op for two years and now am a director for CC. I love TOG, especially for those dialectic years, but was finding a TOG co-op to be an uphill road. There is really no help for the tutors/teachers in what to do each week, what "craft" they should do or even help when those inevitable things go wrong. It's like I was trying to open my own sub shop vs. a subway. Subway tells you how to bake the bread, what the menu is, and how your restaurant should look. Your own sub shop could have better sandwiches, but the learning curve is higher.

 

Now, both can be good. There is a richness that TOG has with history, but especially when we got to year 4, the activities that a co-op would do where just not there. Almost every week was a struggle for what to focus on and we were pulling crafts out of thin air.

 

I like that CC has an art/music time each week and a science experiment (most times) that focuses on how to do an experiment. I like how CC has all the memory work listed and has tools to memorize their material. I was missing that in TOG and despite my attempts to include memory work into the co-op, it was lackluster at best. I also like that the students have to do a presentation every week and that specific time is set apart for that. We did do that in our TOG co-op also with varied results. Again, the lack of direction for even that segment made it harder.

 

Here's what I wish for - a TOG/CC combination. The rich history of TOG combined with the structure CC offers. I may wind up doing both as my ds approaches middle school and the prospects for the CC Challenge levels in my area become slimmer just due to the size of our small town and the size of our community. That's why I haven't sold my TOG stuff just yet.

 

How's that for a middle of the road answer?

 

Beth

[Guest mtaylor1819]

I wanted to add a quick comment regarding your comments about the CC Challenge Program. I agree whole heartedly in doing what is best for your family, so I hope that I am not coming off as combatant. I am a Challenge tutor and the Challenge Program is not meant to be a drop-off program. This is one of the battles I am fighting this year. Parents are welcome in the Challenge classroom and attendance is encouraged since the parent is the primary teacher, but the mindset seems to be the opposite: tutor = teacher. I would love for my parents to join our classes, but because of younger siblings in Foundations/Essentials it is not always possible. I just wanted to add my two cents.