s/o - whole-to-parts writing instruction

[wapiti]

I thought it might be interesting to hear what you all have to say about whole to parts instruction for your VSL for writing, and what that might look like both from a very big picture, year-long view and from the perspective of the daily lesson.

 

Dd10 is using WWS. We are only just starting to get into actual writing - we are on Week 4, Day 4, and she panicked when she saw the assignment. I'm starting to find that I need to present the daily lessons backwards. Often there are three sets of instructions or steps for the day, and we skim through it and then start reading at step 3, LOL. After that we look at step 2, and then finally step 1. Then she moves forward from there.

 

Also, I have found it helpful, for days when there's some sort of rubric in the TM for the final product of an assignment, to copy that onto a plain paper by itself, and print it out for dd to review before she starts writing. It seems a lot clearer that way. I admit I haven't spent much time looking through the coming weeks, which I need to do. If anyone has approached teaching writing backwards like this, please pipe in. I'd love to hear any comments or suggestions you may have. Do you show an example of what you expect the product to look like?

 

As a separate matter, Yllek, I have to think more about WTP and writing itself. I had several thoughts late last night and now I forgot them all :glare:. In the early days, I worked backwards, listing reasons or individual points and then rearranging and rearranging and rearranging, as the reasons evolved during actual writing. That was annoying. Maybe that's easier, though, when one has no idea what one is trying to say (this post is an excellent example of writing without knowing what one wants to say ;) - please bear with me while I think out loud). I had to put the pieces together, but at least I was usually starting out with a given conclusion ("we win"; e.g., "The Court should grant the Defendants' Motion to Dismiss for the following reasons:" followed by bullets). Maybe that's one way - take a guess at the conclusion or ultimate main point, and try to come up with the points that support it, or the converse, coming up with the supporting points and then articulating the main thought - maybe that is harder. I think I need to flip back through the Diana Hanbury King writing books for some general thoughts on this, but I don't have them with me this weekend.

Edited September 3, 2011 by wapiti

[PeterPan]

Wapiti, this is a very timely topic for us to ponder! I don't have a lot of time here, but I think you're wise to make a distinction between how the dc *writes* wtp vs. how we *teach*. And I definitely think you're right that there's a point where the dc may be starting with a concept and need help turning that into a structure. I need to ponder that some more. Have you tried Inspiration? I never have with my dd. See when I write, I start with all the ideas and I just scatter them out all over paper till they organize into an outline for me. I'm realizing I don't know how dd gets her ideas and organizes them. I know they don't start off organized, at least not in a normal way, lol. So I need to ponder that.

 

And I think you're onto something that all I need to do is pop vsl+writing into google and see what I get. Freed has some interesting ideas in his RBCLBW book that I haven't tried yet. Read the book, just haven't tried his writing ideas. (Toddler thing.)

 

As far as instruction, I think what I was doing the way I landed on imitation last year *was* WTP and I didn't even realize it. And I think it's in the flow of what Freed is recommending. So I need to ponder that more. I haven't really charted out in my mind how you get from elementary writing to rhetoric. I just know my ds has an extreme aversion to anything SWB says about writing at this point, so that approach is out.

 

Gotta go run errands, but I'll try to research vsl/writing and reread Freed later. I do think there's a sense in which the actual KIND of writing you try to do might as well fit the kid. For instance dd seems so set in this drive to write more analytically. That doesn't have to be lit (she wants to write about history, no surprise there). I just think the whole hog advice to dump analysis and stick to lighter or easier forms or whatever isn't timely once your dc has moved on to another thought process and craves something else. I always seem to be 2 steps behind her.

[onaclairadeluna]

Interesting. I just finished this very lesson with DS 13 and I kind of do the same thing with him except not so much with the individual assignments but with the big picture. I have been giving him the low down on the expectations for rhetoric stage writing and I tell him how these assignments fit in with that.

 

I also sometimes look ahead in the book to show him where the assignments are headed in near future.

 

His big problems is simplifying his thoughts enough so that he can get them on a piece of paper. Sometimes I wonder how much of this is expressive language problems and how much is GT. Both cause problems for him.

 

He is most definitely a big picture kid. He needs to know why I am asking him to complete a certain task. An other thing that has helped with him is to show him the steps and let him decide whether or not they are helpful. At first he didn't want to jot down ideas and later actually decided to. I told him "Do it if it helps." It really doesn't matter if he writes the ideas on paper or thinks them in his head. Interestingly enough he opted to write them down a couple of times.

 

I have only just started working on WTM style writing instruction with him. I am generally not a fan of waiting but I am actually glad I waited in this area because all of a sudden he is able to do it without stress or grief. He seriously comes to me in the morning around 8 or 8:30 and asks if I am ready to start. Weird.

 

Now that he gets how these tasks fit into the big picture, I have been able to get him to write one level outlines and narrations for Teaching Company episodes. He actually wrote a 2 level outline the other day. DS has a pretty extraordinary memory for auditory information. (especially for a kid who otherwise seems very VSL) I was explaining to DH the other day that his AURAL ability is really strong but his ORAL output is really weak. The special ed people I spoke to suggested I let him dictate writing assignments. Really silly idea for a kid with verbal expression problems. I realized they were mixing up Aural and Oral. Or maybe they weren't listening to me. Sheesh. OK I'm digressing here.

 

Back to the original question. I have been using lots of whole to parts. DS is really goal oriented and I use these goals to motivate him. For example write a good essay with a strong thesis statement on a really interesting topic. Then I say, OK now in order to do this you need these skills (x,y,z...). Once he groks this, he is cool with working on the skills as long as it doesn't take so long that he can't get to the interesting things.

 

The other thing my son has really liked this year is Kilgallon, I am not sure this is whole to parts. Kind of I think. You mentioned imitation, Elizabeth, is this the kind of thing you are talking about? Or something else?

 

Anyhow DS seems to really be digging on Kilgallon these days. There is a certain freedom for creativity but a structure so that he isn't overwhelmed.

 

The thing I find interesting about this question is that the answer in my house is almost paradoxical. On the one hand my son is very whole to parts in his thinking. On the other hand because of LDs he needs explicit instruction in order to complete any writing task. So I have to balance the two, if that makes sense.

[wapiti]

Have you tried Inspiration? I never have with my dd. See when I write, I start with all the ideas and I just scatter them out all over paper till they organize into an outline for me. I'm realizing I don't know how dd gets her ideas and organizes them. I know they don't start off organized, at least not in a normal way, lol. So I need to ponder that.

 

I have no clue about Inspiration - have to check that out - and also I'll have to go look up the Freed book. Meanwhile, I'm still thinking... I think the ultimate structure is the easy part. I love outlining for transforming spatially-organized ideas into linear, logical form, and not having that tool was a very significant loss for me in high school (not sure why I wasn't taught back then). I'm predicting that trouble may come before that...

 

(Toddler thing.)

 

Don't I know it.

 

As far as instruction, I think what I was doing the way I landed on imitation last year *was* WTP and I didn't even realize it. And I think it's in the flow of what Freed is recommending. So I need to ponder that more. I haven't really charted out in my mind how you get from elementary writing to rhetoric. I just know my ds has an extreme aversion to anything SWB says about writing at this point, so that approach is out.

 

Occasionally there are little things that make me want to use what I recall of the WTM approach but backwards. I would have started with outlining using words and phrases before narrations, LOL. Dd has no aversion to using a multi-level outline for a longer writing assignment. She did that last fall, when she was still in school, for a report on a historical figure. Once I showed her how to take the list of requirements from the assignment sheet and turn it into level one of the outline, it was fairly easy for her to go through her reading materials and pick out the little facts that needed to be inserted as second-level points. Then she turned her level ones into paragraphs and level twos into the sentences for the paragraphs, easy-peasy.

 

Now that I think about it, maybe outlining is to essays what diagramming is to sentences (except that we don't need to diagram a sentence before we write it, LOL). Maybe when we get around to something like the 5-paragraph essay, we'll "diagram" it first. I'm hoping to squeeze in that AG essay product somewhere, maybe after WWS, only because I think I'll like what it provides for structure (I bought it but haven't opened it).

 

I do think there's a sense in which the actual KIND of writing you try to do might as well fit the kid. For instance dd seems so set in this drive to write more analytically. That doesn't have to be lit (she wants to write about history, no surprise there).

 

On the kind of writing, I personally would find it a lot easier to write, even analytically, about history than lit (writing about writing...ugh; I think you all know how I feel about lit).

[wapiti]

Interesting. I just finished this very lesson with DS 13 and I kind of do the same thing with him except not so much with the individual assignments but with the big picture. I have been giving him the low down on the expectations for rhetoric stage writing and I tell him how these assignments fit in with that.

 

I also sometimes look ahead in the book to show him where the assignments are headed in near future.

 

This is extremely helpful - thanks for pointing this out. I really have to go through the coming weeks of WWS - I've been procrastinating. Mommy homework (maybe on Tuesday when I have a relatively long period of time to sit without distractions - I'm taking ds to have a heart cath test on Tuesday, a big deal, all-day event, and DH will stay home with the mess-makers; I think we'll put off the week 4/day 4 assigment until I'm back on Wed) (I'm sure I'll be checking in with you all on Tuesday, looking for distractions).

 

 

He is most definitely a big picture kid. He needs to know why I am asking him to complete a certain task. An other thing that has helped with him is to show him the steps and let him decide whether or not they are helpful.

 

This is interesting - I need to think about this...

 

The other thing my son has really liked this year is Kilgallon, I am not sure this is whole to parts. Kind of I think. You mentioned imitation, Elizabeth, is this the kind of thing you are talking about? Or something else?

 

Anyhow DS seems to really be digging on Kilgallon these days. There is a certain freedom for creativity but a structure so that he isn't overwhelmed.

 

I have one of the Killagon books (sentence for elementary), and we tried it several months ago but didn't get far - neither dd nor I were into it. Maybe it would be something for us to try after she does some writing. But, I'm still not sure I care for the approach, generally - I haven't looked at any of the other books. Dd doesn't seem to have a problem writing nice sentences when she knows what she wants to say.

 

The thing I find interesting about this question is that the answer in my house is almost paradoxical. On the one hand my son is very whole to parts in his thinking. On the other hand because of LDs he needs explicit instruction in order to complete any writing task. So I have to balance the two, if that makes sense.

 

I was thinking the same thing about dd, that she wouldn't like MCT if learning by inference were involved. She too needs explicit instruction whenever possible. Oddly enough, I think you might have put the finger on what I like so much about AoPS - it's so explicit.

[rafiki]

.

[Wee Pip]

I'm excited about this thread because its giving me new ideas. I have a dd who is a bit...different:) She seems to fit the profile of auditory/sequential in her learning, but only up to a point. Then, she really needs a real world application with more of a whole-to-parts structure. I'm finally starting to figure this out, but writing has me baffled. She's pencil phobic (likes computers though, so I really need to start those typing lessons!) so the idea of "brainstorm your ideas first" on paper is a no-go. Why do more writing than is necessary? The idea of correcting and re-writing is a no-go (again, why? once is enough). I've never been able to name her learning style, because it seems to incorporate a bit of everything (auditory, visual, kinesthetic). The closest I've come is concrete-sequential ("just the facts", needs explicit, laid-out instruction). When we did WWE, she was so frustrated because I was taking her through the process of finding the basic info and answering questions in order to lead her to a good summary. Finally, one day, she grabbed a piece of paper and pencil and said, "can I just write it?" She saw where I was going with the step-by-step writing instruction and just wanted to get to the destination. Learning to read was similar. We beat phonics like a dead horse. She knew all of her sounds. We went through SWR until list I (the magic list that makes reading happen). But she just couldn't get the sounds out fast enough while reading to be a real reader. So I ditched phonics and we went straight into children's picture books. I'm glad I gave her the phonics (parts-to-whole), but to make it work we needed the whole-to-parts practical real life application. I think writing is the same way, but I'm not sure how to get her past the simple summary writing stage. I'm off to research the resources that you've all mentioned. I'm wondering if an imitation style might work, or not.

[PeterPan]

Wee Pip--On the reading, Sanseri says take put those words in those early lists onto flashcards and practice reading them to the point of automaticity. It's the whole word part you were looking for, and most people skip it or think it's heresy. I think it's the reason dd actually started reading, considering she couldn't sound out words. ;)

 

On the editing and revising, KarenAnne says quite authoritatively that she does NOT think kids need to do so much editing and revising the way curricula imply. I don't think she means skipping editing for basic errors, since some kids write drafts so riddled with them they're incomprehensible. But I do think she's acknowledging your observation that there's something fundamentally rattling about going back to "improve" your writing. Rather than revising like that and trying to perfect (a process she says fits professional authors), she thinks you ought to just acknowledge their work and head to the next round. It's an interesting idea of balance, that's for sure.

 

My dd did the same thing to me when I tried to help her outline and plan out her narrations. She'd give me this blank look of not knowing, so I'd start doing a gentle keyword outline with her. Well that isn't the way she thinks AND it uses up more and more of her working memory. So at that point it was easier for her to run and do it herself. But that doesn't mean she was on top of it, just that she was getting overloaded to the point where she wasn't going to be able to get out ANYTHING soon.

 

Nan in Mass has mentioned spider webs for writing. We should dig up those posts and reread them. Basically, while my dd needs some help thinking logically, she gets frustrated if you sit there and do an outline or work her through it. Furry ears again. But I think the mule is trying to tell us something.

 

Freed talks about modeling, as in you do it and they watch, so they can see what they're trying to do. I think I need to get my brain in gear on this and embrace it as an approach. It could make a lot of these methodologies (book summaries, CW, etc.) work better. And part of the reason they'd work better is because *we* would know where they're going. There's that perpetual sense in which we're a little bit behind the curve on where this stuff is going and we just want to learn along. Can't learn along and lead, unfortunately. But we're not Wonder Women (huh?) either.

 

I've finally realized the difference between college and adult life: in college you had a lot to do and worked hard to get it done. In adult life you work hard and will never get everything done. (Now somebody tell me the right way to punctuate that. :) )

[PeterPan]

Wapiti, I think you're onto a few things here. Open up that AG research paper packet and read it. I got to one evening and also watched Erin explain it to dd. It's totally imitation and structure, exactly what Freed recommends and what you're talking about.

 

Your observation about your dd's comfort with writing to fit the formula is really, really interesting to me. I wonder, and I'll be ornery here, to what extent they want that because it's EASIER than say writing a 5 paragraph essay the way CW Diogenes Maxim describes. I reread it last night and finally get where it's going.

[PeterPan]

...I have been giving him the low down on the expectations for rhetoric stage writing and I tell him how these assignments fit in with that... An other thing that has helped with him is to show him the steps and let him decide whether or not they are helpful.

...

I have only just started working on WTM style writing instruction with him. I am generally not a fan of waiting but I am actually glad I waited in this area because all of a sudden he is able to do it without stress or grief. He seriously comes to me in the morning around 8 or 8:30 and asks if I am ready to start. Weird.

...

Now that he gets how these tasks fit into the big picture, I have been able to get him to write one level outlines and narrations for Teaching Company episodes. He actually wrote a 2 level outline the other day. DS has a pretty extraordinary memory for auditory information. (especially for a kid who otherwise seems very VSL) I was explaining to DH the other day that his AURAL ability is really strong but his ORAL output is really weak. The special ed people I spoke to suggested I let him dictate writing assignments. Really silly idea for a kid with verbal expression problems.

...

Anyhow DS seems to really be digging on Kilgallon these days. There is a certain freedom for creativity but a structure so that he isn't overwhelmed.

...

The thing I find interesting about this question is that the answer in my house is almost paradoxical. On the one hand my son is very whole to parts in his thinking. On the other hand because of LDs he needs explicit instruction in order to complete any writing task. So I have to balance the two, if that makes sense.

 

Onacl--I'm not ignoring you here. It's just that you blew my mind so much I needed time to process. :D

 

Yes, I think it's a blend of the GT (ability to leap) and the expressive problems (praxis, dyslexia, pick a label). Combine that with some working memory problems (meaning interruptions from someone trying to help are disastrously frustrating) and a toddler, and you just have a mess. So I have learned to do whatever I need to, then walk away and leave her ALONE. Yes, she does better when typing.

 

I switched her over to Dvorak keyboard layout btw. Best decision I've made this year. She's no longer pecking. She can't peck (because the keys aren't labeled, snort!), but she doesn't NEED to peck. (The layout is much more ergonomic.) Mavis Beacon will do Dvorak lessons. I'm just so happy with that. I set her up an account on the computer and configured it so it only works in Dvorak. And she can't change it. So for anything she really wants to do (email, surfing, whatever), she's forced into using it. Let's just say she's been learning really, really fast. :lol:

 

Your whole point about getting to the end point, then letting them PICK what steps they need to get there, THAT blew my mind. What I was doing was gettting to the end game and then still making her do all the steps, lol. You just finally made it clear to me.

 

On the Killgallon, what books are you using? I looked at it on amazon and never got further. When I mentioned imitation, I was saying that I did my own hack spinoff of CW Homer. She abhores (and I'm not saying that too lightly) CW. Well not just CW but BJU, anything by SWB, etc. etc. Told you I've got furry ears in this house. But bless the child, it's so hard when everything that is supposed to work doesn't feel right and the mom doesn't know what to do about it. You get dragged through stuff you know doesn't fit you and you keep WANTING to explain but can't. So with the Homer stuff all I did was go back to earlier models from CW/WT (so they'd be SHORT) and let her go at them again, this time using Homer skills. It was fun and the very thing you're saying about going to the end result and picking what we need of the steps, rather than doing all the steps and hoping to get to the end result.

 

When you say you're doing WTM writing, what exactly are you doing? Or maybe it's that outlining? See I've tried to follow the WTM instructions on writing all along. She usually seemed to be a year or so ahead (I know, contradictory), so we dutifully did level one and a bit of level 2 outlines in 4th, etc. What a honking WASTE. I mean we did it, but it was so bleh. It was so clear it wasn't connecting with her psyche or getting anywhere. But I think the problem was we were too perfunctory, just outlining a history encyclopedia. Just listening to what you're saying, I'm thinking it would have been MUCH more revelatory if we had outlined something she actually wanted to imitate. Ok, come to think of that, SWB did say that. She said she took her reluctant writer ds (not the prolific writer ds you always hear about but the reluctant one) and had him outlining biographies. Well at the time, that didn't seem a good fit. At this moment though, it suddenly seems to me that might be very interesting. Hmm. And definitely it would be interesting to outline and analyze for structure (sort of CW in reverse) well-written essays of the type we're wanting her to write.

 

So much to think about, sigh! We have to learn the writing form, learn how to do it and where it's going, then back up and find examples so we can teach it totally in reverse. And keep a toddler busy. And... Don't you wish we had actually LEARNED something in high school? Not even college, but high school! I mean seriously, they sat us in a room talking about literature (pooled ignorance) and then asked us to write papers. They never substantiated anything, never taught us to write, never taught rhetoric. It's SO annoying.

 

I have this secret fetish that I'd like dd to have a good enough education from me that, even if she didn't go to college, she'd still be well-educated.

 

Well I'm out of time. You've given me a ton to think about, thanks. Even just the reminder that as they grow their ability to tackle these things again improves, that's a great reminder. :)

Edited September 4, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[wapiti]

Wapiti, I think you're onto a few things here. Open up that AG research paper packet and read it. I got to one evening and also watched Erin explain it to dd. It's totally imitation and structure, exactly what Freed recommends and what you're talking about.

 

Your observation about your dd's comfort with writing to fit the formula is really, really interesting to me. I wonder, and I'll be ornery here, to what extent they want that because it's EASIER than say writing a 5 paragraph essay the way CW Diogenes Maxim describes. I reread it last night and finally get where it's going.

 

I don't know the first thing about CW - I'll just assume that a certain amount of brain power is involved, LOL.

 

My goal with the structure (and imitation) is to have the framework in her mind, to have it become a part of her brain. Then, when the time comes, hopefully it will be much easier for her to put her own thoughts into the structure. This would be analogous to the context a VSL might need to learn first so that there is a place to store the details as they are learned. Think physical shelves.

 

I'm not into formulaic writing per se, but there is a reason and a logic to why writing is set up the way it is, and I guess I'm trying to help dd translate spatial thoughts into a linear fashion. I will say that anything smacking of a "style" formula (words within a sentence, trying to make it more flowery) is a huge turn-off to me. I have different rules for that angle.

 

My plan would be that once she becomes comfortable fitting her own thoughts into the structure, she'll feel more comfortable altering the structure to suit her argument. This may be years away for us. Then again, she may need explicit instruction on that as well ;).

 

Yes, I think it's a blend of the GT (ability to leap) and the expressive problems (praxis, dyslexia, pick a label). Combine that with some working memory problems (meaning interruptions from someone trying to help are disastrously frustrating) and a toddler, and you just have a mess. So I have learned to do whatever I need to, then walk away and leave her ALONE. Yes, she does better when typing.

:lurk5: You all are ahead of us, and I'm taking notes. FWIW, dd cannot stand interruptions from me - holy cow - but she doesn't have a working memory issue.

 

Your whole point about getting to the end point, then letting them PICK what steps they need to get there, THAT blew my mind. What I was doing was gettting to the end game and then still making her do all the steps, lol. You just finally made it clear to me.

...

At this moment though, it suddenly seems to me that might be very interesting. Hmm. And definitely it would be interesting to outline and analyze for structure (sort of CW in reverse) well-written essays of the type we're wanting her to write.

 

lots of food for thought - very VSL-ish sounding. I'm intuiting things that I can't express just yet LOL....

 

Don't you wish we had actually LEARNED something in high school? Not even college, but high school! I mean seriously, they sat us in a room talking about literature (pooled ignorance) and then asked us to write papers. They never substantiated anything, never taught us to write, never taught rhetoric. It's SO annoying.

 

This drives me crazy as well. The only writing instruction I can remember happened in elementary school - how to write a paragraph. Formulaic, yes. Back then, I always struggled with "what is the main idea" types of activities, so I think practice for that may be important for us. I like exercises that involve choosing a main idea or topic sentence for a collection of details - lots and lots of practice. I am totally thinking out loud here.... I have a problem with projecting my memory of my own weaknesses onto dd, though it seems to be true that she has the same ones.

[onaclairadeluna]

On the Killgallon, what books are you using? I looked at it on amazon and never got further.

 

DS worked through the grammar for high school samples on the heinemann site.

 

http://www.heinemann.com/authors/837.aspx

 

He really liked them and I just ordered the book. So we are just starting.

 

OK DS is 13 in the 8th grade and he's been through 4 levels of MCT. BUT I never made him do all the writing assignments. Not that I didn't make him do ANY writing but our writing was really light. I vacillate between thinking this was a mistake and thinking I was giving him time to digest what he was supposed to be doing.

 

Our writing instruction has basically been Barton. You know last year I got all excited and through a few dictation passages at him. Goodness, he loved it but he was too good at it. He could seriously dictate paragraphs from Dickens. I wasn't sure that practicing something he was so good at would help. Narrations on the other hand were completely impossible for him. He could not sift the information down to a short summary. I was thinking about it this morning and for years (before we caught the dyslexia) he would read by filling in gaps. He's great at filling in information and remembering it but summarizing is kind of an opposite skill and for whatever reason it is the hardest one for him. This is ultimately what makes writing hard. He wants to write a 40 page paper and he has the skills to write one page. Maybe two. He just can't simplify his thoughts.

 

 

 

When you say you're doing WTM writing, what exactly are you doing? Or maybe it's that outlining? See I've tried to follow the WTM instructions on writing all along. She usually seemed to be a year or so ahead (I know, contradictory), so we dutifully did level one and a bit of level 2 outlines in 4th, etc. What a honking WASTE. I mean we did it, but it was so bleh. It was so clear it wasn't connecting with her psyche or getting anywhere. But I think the problem was we were too perfunctory, just outlining a history encyclopedia. Just listening to what you're saying, I'm thinking it would have been MUCH more revelatory if we had outlined something she actually wanted to imitate. Ok, come to think of that, SWB did say that. She said she took her reluctant writer ds (not the prolific writer ds you always hear about but the reluctant one) and had him outlining biographies. Well at the time, that didn't seem a good fit. At this moment though, it suddenly seems to me that might be very interesting. Hmm. And definitely it would be interesting to outline and analyze for structure (sort of CW in reverse) well-written essays of the type we're wanting her to write.

 

OK so with SWB, you have to realize that we are just starting and I am having him work on WWS as an 8th grader. WWE wouldn't have worked at all for him. Even WWS he sometimes gets a little "this passage is all wrong" for the science examples. Last year I was starting to once and awhile throw narrations and dictations at him, oh and outlining too. The reason I am going back and doing WWS is for fluency. I want him getting in the habit of being able to get something done in one sitting.

 

So this is how it goes. He comes into my room in the morning and says. Can we start? Seriously. I would have never believed this but he does. I somehow convinced him to do this before math which was genius because he really wants to get back to his math work. And he works through one lesson and sometimes two (if the lesson is short). I think the key is it is easy and painless and we do it right away.

 

Later in the day he has sometimes opted to outline and or narrate TTC episodes. I told him the whole outlining/narration thing and he is into it. Oh I have to backtrack to say that I was told by a special ed person to do outlining with him and I thought she was insane. Actually I still do. It isn't the way he thinks. He has the outline in his head already and putting that on paper before he writes is an extra step (I am talking about writing an original essay....he's only done this a few times but when he does outlining makes it harder not easier).OK, but then it occurred to me. He needs to learn how to take notes and write stuff on paper better so perhaps getting into a routine of outlining etc. would be good for him. Interestingly enough the outlining is easy for him. Narration is much harder but still doable. But again, I am having him practice this for fluency.

 

Here's the other thing I told him. I said that in high school he would be writing 2 essays a week with a thesis. (He says "mom all essays have a thesis". I say "yes dear, I am being redundant for emphasis"). And that we are practicing this in order to help him be more fluent with writing. And whenever he's ready we can go to the more traditional essay writing.

 

We are going for quantity over quality. I know that sounds weird but with DS the quality will happen.

 

One more thing. I do edit his writing. I sit next to him. He reads it to me and makes any obvious edits (there are always mistakes that he finds just from reading out loud. Then I read it and if I think it's something he should know how to do I hand him the pencil and have him make the change. If it's a style thing that I think would improve the writing I sometimes say "what do you think about this..." same as if I was editing an adults writing. I don't make changes to style without permission. If he says OK, I make the change myself. I don't make a ton of edits but I always make a few and we do these together. I suppose this is kind of like modeling. I certainly don't go through with a red pencil and have him write in all my changes. I think this would wound him.

 

So much to think about, sigh! We have to learn the writing form, learn how to do it and where it's going, then back up and find examples so we can teach it totally in reverse. And keep a toddler busy. And... Don't you wish we had actually LEARNED something in high school? Not even college, but high school! I mean seriously, they sat us in a room talking about literature (pooled ignorance) and then asked us to write papers. They never substantiated anything, never taught us to write, never taught rhetoric. It's SO annoying.)

 

Ha, yes. I mean we are doing the best we can, considering that we have pretty tough kids and were not really taught how to do this. I spent years flailing with DS. No idea what I was doing at all. All of the sudden things are coming together. Some of this seems to be developmental. Something in his brain clicked. I think part of it is that he doesn't have to work so dang hard to spell now. (Barton 9!!! yay for that)

[onaclairadeluna]

 

I was thinking the same thing about dd, that she wouldn't like MCT if learning by inference were involved. She too needs explicit instruction whenever possible. Oddly enough, I think you might have put the finger on what I like so much about AoPS - it's so explicit.

 

MCT is not explicit and it didn't really *work* to help my son's writing. However my son loved it and I think he learned a lot from it. So I wouldn't really give it a thumbs down. It just needs some supplementation.

 

I did things so out of order and at the time I felt that I was doing it all wrong (It was certainly by the seat of my pants). Still, now it seems that things are coming together.

[onaclairadeluna]

I don't know the first thing about CW - I'll just assume that a certain amount of brain power is involved, LOL.

 

Oh I forgot to mention I also have a copy of CW Herodotus. DS wanted to read Herodotus this year and I figured it would give him an idea of where he is headed. We are kind of dabbling in it. I don't make him do all the writing in this but again I think the information about writing is valuable and needs to percolate in his brain before he can get it on paper. He is working through it slowly. We might get to more towards the end of the year. It is pretty meaty.

[PeterPan]

Yes, she (and others) think I'm mean, but I DEFINITELY think these kids need a certain amount of quantity.

 

CW Herodotus? Mercy, I haven't even looked at that one yet. I'm just regretting that I let Maxim sit so long unused (by me), as it makes a lot of sense.

 

You're really killing me with the Barton thing here. So you're telling me you've gone all the way through Barton 9? What kind of writing do they include? I briefly looked into Barton one time and just sort of concluded it was out of reach and not something that most people stuck with. Were the results WORTH it? What happened? Lightning struck and he started writing prose like CS Lewis? Does he spell at a 9th grade level as a result or something more astounding? Guess I'm just intensely curious. :)

 

Just so you know, at this point you're keeping me from canning salsa. I WILL can my salsa and it WILL turn out well. (I've never done this before, and I'm petrified.)

[onaclairadeluna]

You're really killing me with the Barton thing here. So you're telling me you've gone all the way through Barton 9? What kind of writing do they include? I briefly looked into Barton one time and just sort of concluded it was out of reach and not something that most people stuck with. Were the results WORTH it? What happened? Lightning struck and he started writing prose like CS Lewis? Does he spell at a 9th grade level as a result or something more astounding? Guess I'm just intensely curious. :)

 

:lol:It really is just spelling, not really writing. It's time consuming though. He is pretty close to spelling at a ninth grade level. (one more level to go) It really did work for that. I didn't have to pay $ for it since I HS through a charter and it's in their library. I probably would have gone with something like AAS or Apples and Pears if I didn't have it at my fingertips. Reading was never a problem for him. Still it does the job. Oh, the sentences they have in Barton are awful. Really absolutely awful. But it does work for spelling (or it did for DS13...I use it with DD6 also) and for sounding out words too. He can pronounce things correctly 98% of the time now. DS seems to have a fairly intuitive grasp of good sounding language so we just laugh at the terrible sentences in the book and move on.

 

Just so you know, at this point you're keeping me from canning salsa. I WILL can my salsa and it WILL turn out well. (I've never done this before, and I'm petrified.)

 

Oh salsa, yum. I sometimes think salsa should be a food group. I'm sure it will be great.

[PeterPan]

Alas, my salsa didn't turn out great, but it's done. Maybe tomorrow we'll try some more batches.

 

Well that makes sense about you using Barton all the way. The price is so $$$ that I just figured I was going to have to see way more problems than I was to justify it. But to borrow and use it for free, well that's AWESOME. :)

[Wee Pip]

Wee Pip--On the reading, Sanseri says take put those words in those early lists onto flashcards and practice reading them to the point of automaticity. It's the whole word part you were looking for, and most people skip it or think it's heresy. I think it's the reason dd actually started reading, considering she couldn't sound out words. ;)

 

We did flashcards (guiltily, since sightwords aren't popular, lol!) but even that wasn't what made reading click. It was real, honest to goodness books that did it. None of that controlled phonetic reader nonsense. It was saying things like "oh look, that word starts with an 'e' and there's a picture of an elephant, so what do you think that word is?" Yeah, I know. Sheer evil. But her reading is fantastic now, so our quirky method of guessing didn't ruin her:lol:

 

On the editing and revising, KarenAnne says quite authoritatively that she does NOT think kids need to do so much editing and revising the way curricula imply. I don't think she means skipping editing for basic errors, since some kids write drafts so riddled with them they're incomprehensible. But I do think she's acknowledging your observation that there's something fundamentally rattling about going back to "improve" your writing. Rather than revising like that and trying to perfect (a process she says fits professional authors), she thinks you ought to just acknowledge their work and head to the next round. It's an interesting idea of balance, that's for sure.

 

I like that. I also liked what one of the other posters said about quantity rather than quality. I think that's our aim this year. I'm just so timid about making her write, because hearing those complaints is just so miserable for me. LOL. I need a backbone.

 

Nan in Mass has mentioned spider webs for writing. We should dig up those posts and reread them. Basically, while my dd needs some help thinking logically, she gets frustrated if you sit there and do an outline or work her through it. Furry ears again. But I think the mule is trying to tell us something.

 

I'm reading some posts from Nan in Mass now, thanks for the tip! Furry ears...sigh...I have trouble figuring out which things to listen to. If I listen 100%, then we won't do school at all! LOL. But if I can hear just the right things, I get a good clue for what we need to be doing. Sometimes. But sometimes mules need a good pushing. I have trouble pushing mules, lol.

 

Freed talks about modeling, as in you do it and they watch, so they can see what they're trying to do.

 

One of our most successful writing escapades was last summer. We took a trip to Chicago museums and dh assigned a 10-page essay about our trip. I thought he was insane! Does he know that dd doesn't write? Anyhow, took a month, and we worked together to brainstorm lists of things we visited. We went online to the museum websites to find more info about the things we saw (add content to the essay). Dd typed the essay section by section. Then, we sat together and edited. I did most of the editing (modeling), but sometimes asked her advice. At the end of this, dd had a 10-page essay of her trip. It was time intensive for me, though. This year, I have one of those toddlers that you keep mentioning. Argh! Dd doesn't focus so well when her toddler sis is throwing WorldBook Encycs at her head.

 

I've finally realized the difference between college and adult life: in college you had a lot to do and worked hard to get it done. In adult life you work hard and will never get everything done. (Now somebody tell me the right way to punctuate that. :) )

 

That's it, right there. You just explained life as we know it:)

[PeterPan]

Mule pushing... :lol:

[wapiti]

I'm resurrecting this to report my update. I think dd needs some time on basic paragraph structure and editing. Now that she's see the basic gist of the narrative, we'll take a quick break from WWS for The Paragraph Book. We'll hopefully get most of Book 1 done over two weeks or so - I haven't scheduled it out just yet. (It amazes me how much stuff I've purchased over the past year that I might actually use!) She has no problem with WWS outlining, but I can't edit her narrative work at the moment - she's super-sensitive. So, we'll work from the other direction. I have Books 2-4 also, but I don't necessarily plan to use those at this time.

 

Meanwhile, this evening, I'm planning to review my essay package from AG. For a brief moment, in my twisted little brain, I thought perhaps it might be interesting to do this first, as the big picture (and I vaguely recall that it goes through the purpose of every single sentence in the essay), and then do the Paragraph Book after. I think tonight I'll find that I'd rather do AG essay after the Paragraph Book, unless any of you have any crazy thoughts you'd like to throw this way, since you are the voices of experience. (onaclairadeluna, which way would be more backwards? LOL)

 

Then, at some point, we'll return to where we were in WWS. Maybe I should mix it all together?

 

My goal is to feed her extremely explicit instruction that comes more from a book than from me. I haven't gotten around to teaching by modelling something of my own rather than by editing her work - that'll take more effort... :tongue_smilie: At some point, that'll become prudent, I think.

[onaclairadeluna]

My goal is to feed her extremely explicit instruction that comes more from a book than from me. I haven't gotten around to teaching by modelling something of my own rather than by editing her work - that'll take more effort... :tongue_smilie: At some point, that'll become prudent, I think.

 

I think this is a great plan. Take a break do a little bit of mechanics so she can self edit. I think once a child gets good at editing their own work they can be more receptive to the edits of others. They get the routine. Write-edit. Do keep us posted on how things are going.